How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[makls]

So, you're suggesting that by catering only to hardcores, casuals will stay subbed?

This is tired and ridiculous nonsense and doesn't work.

but never tryed again after the sunwel patch tho.We have an old image in our heads that we have some magical 2% hardcore base that is destroying the game yet the gams is at 2mil subs at best.What was better 12 mill subs with my theory or keep kicking the dead horse and squeeze microtransactions like the game now?

[Dzonathan]

Deterministic gearing and no daily hardcaps on anything.

Someone who only has time to log in on weekends and binge grind the entire day shouldn't be worse off who can do same amount of time across the entire week.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I don't want to do chores to get currency as a casual player, it should be given to me since I pay my sub just like everyone else.

That would be the point of the currency, you'd only do the content you enjoy and have an avenue towards gearing. You wouldn't be funneled into content you don't enjoy, which is the current state of the game.

If there is literally no content you enjoy, I'd question why you'd bother paying for a subscription for a game that offers you no enjoyment.

[kenn9530]

Destiny 2 doesn't block casuals from obtaining pinacle gear. WoW did something similar with removing currency cap required to upgrade your M0 drops. Degeneracy that forces people to raid to obtain best possible gear, is another topic. People who only play M+ shouldn't be punished and forced to raid.

https://www.blueberries.gg/leveling/...x-power-level/

You are not forced to do anything, Raiding should offer the highest level gear and nothing else should offer it, M+ should only offer at most heroic raiding level gear and same should be with the highest PvP, not everyone should have access to the best items unless they are prepared to work for it.

[klaps_05]

Switch to gear as means to an end rather than an endless cycle. Highest ilevel affordable for all on a close timeline. Achievements like mythic clear, world first keys, gladiator based on whos better.

[deenman]

Destiny 2 doesn't block casuals from obtaining pinacle gear. WoW did something similar with removing currency cap required to upgrade your M0 drops. Degeneracy that forces people to raid to obtain best possible gear, is another topic. People who only play M+ shouldn't be punished and forced to raid.

https://www.blueberries.gg/leveling/...x-power-level/

people dicking around in heroic dungeons or world quests should never have acces to endgame gear,thats the most bullshit concept ever,you want gear?git gud

no,the solution is to make FUN and interesting casual content,a better collectable system for example,not 0.1% mount drop chance

[Toybox]

Wrath gave you what, a few 10N iLvl pieces & a few 25N pieces from vendors - everything else was from previous tiers/low ilvl. I don't know why people say it was better then than it is now.

At the moment, you do a few mid-level M+ a week & by the end of the tier you've got damn near mythic iLvl, & outpace heroic fairly early on even if you don't want to raid at all.

[Xilurm]

The idea of logging in the game just to spam dungeons/raids is so boring to me. I much prefer exploration type of gameplay, which WoW lacks, even during the levelling process because everything is so streamlined.

It's why I prefer playing tbc classic compared to retail. I also think ESO is so much better at than retail WoW.

[Osmeric]

but never tryed again after the sunwel patch tho.We have an old image in our heads that we have some magical 2% hardcore base that is destroying the game yet the gams is at 2mil subs at best.What was better 12 mill subs with my theory or keep kicking the dead horse and squeeze microtransactions like the game now?

Dude. It's obviously total crap. Casuals are not going to go "oh great, the game is designed for someone else, take my money". They're going to go "oh, this isn't the game for me, I'll play something else that is". Greg Street famously commented on what players do when challenged; see my signature.

And it happened well after Sunwell. It happened in Catalcysm, most famously. It's happened in other games too. Remember Wildstar?

[makls]

Dude. It's obviously total crap. Casuals are not going to go "oh great, the game is designed for someone else, take my money". They're going to go "oh, this isn't the game for me, I'll play something else that is". Greg Street famously commented on what players do when challenged; see my signature.

And it happened well after Sunwell. It happened in Catalcysm, most famously. It's happened in other games too. Remember Wildstar?

I am sorry its not crap just look at it from both angles,it seems they ruined it back at'08 when the merger was going on and Greg Street was wrong,they never should have touched something that wasnt broken.
The thing is the casuals will do that what you just said actually,its a domino effect my man.
Also we cant compare Cata's 5 weaks of ''hard'' heroics to actual hard content,but while at it if you remmember the crying about it ,its just portrays the spoiled audience,blizz just nerfed it ->2weeks of hype->worst content tier ever->FL came out and it bombed hard since they had such a rich lore bas around FL then rest is contagious virus of 15 months of my lost time.

[neik]

You are not forced to do anything, Raiding should offer the highest level gear and nothing else should offer it, M+ should only offer at most heroic raiding level gear and same should be with the highest PvP, not everyone should have access to the best items unless they are prepared to work for it.

people dicking around in heroic dungeons or world quests should never have acces to endgame gear,thats the most bullshit concept ever,you want gear?git gud

no,the solution is to make FUN and interesting casual content,a better collectable system for example,not 0.1% mount drop chance

These are other humans, if they worked weeks or months accumulating tokens/collecting equipment, it doesn't matter where they got the gear from, let it be from M+ or Raiding.

This scuffed mindset is trully baffling me. After extensively playing Destiny 2, I want nothing more but for other people to succeed, be geared, and enjoy activities together. Bungie doesn't discriminate casual players, if you put in play time you get rewarded.

[Toybox]

The idea of logging in the game just to spam dungeons/raids is so boring to me. I much prefer exploration type of gameplay, which WoW lacks, even during the levelling process because everything is so streamlined.

It's why I prefer playing tbc classic compared to retail. I also think ESO is so much better at than retail WoW.

The only MMO I've played to do open world exploration right is OSRS. WoW is absolutely horrendous in comparison with its bland challengeless repeatable chores with little to no effort put into them, little reward to earn from them, & no feeling of satisfaction to gain from engaging with any of them.

If WoW had open world content worth playing it'd be awesome, but everything is just far too solved & obvious. There's no chance of discovering a random cool quest - they're all on the map. There's no chance you get confused doing the quest - it tells you exactly where to go & what to do. There's no chance of being challenged by the quest - they're designed for people who struggle to use a computer. There's no chance of getting loot from any of it - unless it's a mount, in which case it's a reskin at an =< 1% droprate.

I know people get annoyed when raiders/PvP/dungeoneers call it chore content, but surely people see why - It offers absolutely nothing of value unless they throw a carrot on a stick at the end of it all.

[schwarzkopf]

Step 1 - realise that progression and casual are both measures of different things.
That is - you can be progression and casual at the same time.

Realise progression is about effort and casual is about time.

[NineSpine]

Dude. It's obviously total crap. Casuals are not going to go "oh great, the game is designed for someone else, take my money". They're going to go "oh, this isn't the game for me, I'll play something else that is". Greg Street famously commented on what players do when challenged; see my signature.

And it happened well after Sunwell. It happened in Catalcysm, most famously. It's happened in other games too. Remember Wildstar?

Greg Street was wrong. FF14 has a higher skill floor (whatever you want to say about the ceiling is irrelevant) and more people engage with the content there than do so in WoW.

What actually happened is the WoW developers boxed themselves in and said "In this box we made, that can't work, therefore it can't work." They didn't understand the box they had built around themselves. Challenging content can't work under the following scenario:

1. Queue with low barrier to entry
2. Little to no penalty for dropping out of a group
3. Encounters that allows one player to easily kill the whole group
4. No ramp up content for players to cut their teeth on

That was the scenario in Cataclysm. Yes, if you assume all of those things are facts of nature that cannot be altered, then the content can't work. However, none of that is written in stone. All of that is changeable, and when you change it, it can work.

[Sucralose]

Yes.

Provide the majority of players/playstyles a path to eventually reach the power cap and have the most difficult content provide cosmetics, mounts, achievements, titles, teleports etc.

Others have brought this up and from a progression stand point there needs to be different levels of players or else you can't functionally have different levels of difficulties. When people are pushed to fast to far it breaks the progression system it is why systems like raider io became more or less mandatory to have any success pugging.

[Beefhammer]

I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

What are your thoughts on it?

Just need to ignore the snowflake raiders that's all. Give them their playground and give others options to obtain or upgrade gear to similar power. Getting the best gear in Destiny being a casual works just fine.

[NineSpine]

Just need to ignore the snowflake raiders that's all. Give them their playground and give others options to obtain or upgrade gear to similar power. Getting the best gear in Destiny being a casual works just fine.

And weirdly I have never seen a single complaint from hardcore Destiny players about it.

[aceperson]

the obvious solution is you stop treating the two sides as if you can only please one side. every game has casuals and hardcores. you please casuals by providing casual content. you please hardcores by providing hardcore content. the simple answer is just start making content focused on those sides.

[Aedruid]

But what you're saying here is the content you're doing isn't fun if someone gets something similar. That's not an indictment of the ease or the other player, but it sounds more like its an indictment on how unfun the content is.

Again add a badge system with a hard cap for all content. Raiders/M+ get there faster, and can gear up alts easier, and solo players have a similar system but it takes them longer. It's fair, and fun for all.

Hold on here, think about it this way... If I Aedruid vanquished Gigantomax the legendary dragon, I can then get to the legendary chest it is guarding. Which is loot that is far more powerful and epic than killing garden gnomes in a world quest. I can feel it's power when interacting with the world.

Get my point?

[Deadite]

You are not forced to do anything, Raiding should offer the highest level gear and nothing else should offer it, M+ should only offer at most heroic raiding level gear and same should be with the highest PvP, not everyone should have access to the best items unless they are prepared to work for it.

PvP should give the best gear. It is far more skilled than killing some scripted pve encounter.