How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[Kirbydude65]

If Blizzard truly wants to have a successful expansion again they need to offer meaningful character progression for EVERYONE. They did it before, they know how to do it now they just need to get rid of whatever gatekeeping crapdev is holding everyone back.

Korthia is literally right there and provides a 233 item level, 6 item levels under heroic. Why thoes 6 item levels weren't just given? I don't know. But lets not act like there isn't a casual way currently in WoW to increase your characters power.

The bigger issue IMO isn't the gear or even the activities. The first issue is a fresh max level character takes too long to get the ball rolling. Between covenants, soulbinds, legendary crafting, and storylines there's a ton of stuff a character has to do to start rolling.

Legion, a very successful expansion by most memories, was almost universally despiesd until the final patch where everything to get the character rolling was completed almost instantly.

The second issue is that unless your watching sims, raid reports, and checking things like io its hard to feel your character progressing. World scaling has made it so that you feel like your jogging in place despite gaining gear and power. My current character is 249 (could go to 251, but poor luck with dom socket pieces), yet I still have to wait around for several rare mobs in Korthia for others to lend a hand.

In prior expansions like MoP with the Isle of Thunder, once I was around the ilevel cap I could 1 shot mobs and never bat an eye at attacking a rare.

The issue isn't gear, and it isn't activities. Its the lack of feeling of progression outside of an analytical standpoint and the fact there's a lot for a new character to start being viable in any content outside of world content.

[Yriel]

People are leaving because besides "the big 3" there is nothing to do for casuals that rewards proper character progression and that's "all" they want. Everything is behind walls people do not want to climb and people like you who are always screeching "just get better at the game" don't seem to get it; people dont care about being good they want to have fun.

Completely agree.
It's funny that it's always said that people are not enough when it is much more often that the content is just not fun.
I raided for 3 expansions. I was quite good in my raidgroup, i was raidleader at one point, it just was never fun. In the end when i drove home from work on a raid day i dreaded logging in later because i just wanted to do something fun instead. So i stopped.
It's not my skill, i just don't enjoy that kind of gameplay. I can't think of more boring gameplay than raiding.

And another thing people don't seem to get is that it is about progression, not gear level. This expansion was horrible imo because it gave you the best gear outside of raiding/m+ with the covenant quests very early without doing much.
I don't care if that gear is almost m0 level, i want to have some progression, some reason to log in. Handing me the best gear at the start, invalidating all heroic dungeons and WQs made me quit the game. I don't care about my ILVL, i don't want or need BIS gear, i just want a steady gear progression outside of raiding/M+.
But no, Blizz has to cater to the Raid/M+ playerbase and hand them a starting armor as quick as possible, invalidating the fun of everyone else.

[Miffinat0r]

I think it's pretty clear a system that would work would revolve around currencies gained at different rates based of off difficulty. Add weekly caps, and now the chore feeling is gone, and everyone can do the content they enjoy for the same type of rewards.

[odamienskii]

I've read people being wrong before but this takes the cake.. You genuinely think most sub-losses are players leaving because content isnt hard enough? Who the hell do you think is still subbed at this point? It certainly isn't your average casual player.

People are leaving because besides "the big 3" there is nothing to do for casuals that rewards proper character progression and that's "all" they want. Everything is behind walls people do not want to climb and people like you who are always screeching "just get better at the game" don't seem to get it; people dont care about being good they want to have fun.

If Blizzard truly wants to have a successful expansion again they need to offer meaningful character progression for EVERYONE. They did it before, they know how to do it now they just need to get rid of whatever gatekeeping crapdev is holding everyone back.

Sorry but your logic is completely flawed, think about it.

Content is very easy - only casuals are still active
- pro / no life players complete it quickly, get bored and unsub
- it takes bad / less active players longer to complete so they stay active for longer.

Content is very hard - both players are still active
- pro / no life players stay subbed for longer as thats why they log in, its engaging.
- bad / less active players climb the ladder like they are meant to in +5 +7 +9 and taughast layer 2,3,4 and lfr,normal,heroic

Currently everyone skips to m+15 taughast layer 8 or whatever it is now and straight into heroic, there is no place for the casuals to go, its too easy, which pushes the casuals up into the more difficult content which makes it impossible for the better players because you cant time +22 xyz with 2 players who do not know where there interupt button is.

14 years i was playing wow, ive had some breakls sure, never for more than 6 months, this is the first time ive felt the game isnt worth the time anymore because il be forced to play with horrendous players who know no better, its not there fault, its blizzards fault for not segregating the playerbase.

I want a system in m+ where players are ranked for interupts/stuns, damage reduction and output, a fair system where people will have star ratings next to there name to show how good that player is, for me that would give me my game back, because i could log in and prove how good i am by star ratings, if i wasnt as good as i thought i was? I COULD IMPROVE thats the point, so could everyone.

So you find it hard to improve your star ratings? read a guide, get better, your playing the game, your progressing, your getting better. thats what this post is about right? how to make it so both the progress player and casual player are fulfilled? this would suit both and give a sence of reward/pride along the way also. which is what wow was when it was great.

[Relapses]

I want a system in m+ where players are ranked for interupts/stuns, damage reduction and output, a fair system where people will have star ratings next to there name to show how good that player is, for me that would give me my game back, because i could log in and prove how good i am by star ratings, if i wasnt as good as i thought i was? I COULD IMPROVE thats the point, so could everyone.t.

lmfao, you realize that'll just lead to toxicity where if one person misses an interrupt they'll brick a key, right? And what about classes like Moonkin and SPriest who have 40+ second CDs on their interrupts? Fuck that noise. You can't "rank" people on shit like that. The game already effectively ranks it anyway because the higher the key level goes the more likely that missed interrupt wipes the group which leads to the player reaching their skill ceiling.

[SoundOfGuns]

I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

What are your thoughts on it?

Give the people proper access to your content. Let them access all of it. Make it decent. Make it smart. But make it beatable with randoms sooner or later. And then give the rest a ferocious hardmode to bite through. And stop insulting the casuals by shitty looking downgraded gear that doesnt feel like a reward.

Simply dont treat the casuals like garbage and give them proper, rewarding experiences and just give the hardcore crowd the hardest bone to chew on. I really dont think that is that hard.

And let people choose what they want to do. A hardcore player will do all of that content but even to them this isnt fun. It certainly isnt for casuals tho.

[LTN]

Just cap ilv properly and accept people that are never going to play beyond solo content and autoqueue content will always cry no matter how poorly or how well they are treated.

[odamienskii]

lmfao, you realize that'll just lead to toxicity where if one person misses an interrupt they'll brick a key, right? And what about classes like Moonkin and SPriest who have 40+ second CDs on their interrupts? Fuck that noise. You can't "rank" people on shit like that. The game already effectively ranks it anyway because the higher the key level goes the more likely that missed interrupt wipes the group which leads to the player reaching their skill ceiling.

Dude that is EXACTLY the point, when you get into +23/24 keys you shouldnt be missing an interupt otherwise you are wasting everyones time, and the "rank" would be based on your actual class maximising what you can do along side what exactly is interuptable, even if you overlap, as long as your pressing the button when the spell is being cast you get the points, utility usage like an aoe stun or incap would be bonus points, it wouldnt be hard to impliment, the biggest problem wouldnt be implimenting it, it would be the massive outcry of bad players who get shown for what they are and no longer invited to keys they dont belong.

The upside is ANYONE who is good could come back to the game at any moment and within a few days prove there star ratings and start getting invited to higher keys because star rating would overtake rio, i would still keep rio though as a base score for experience, star ratings as a signal of how much of own weight is pulled.

Instead of the system as it is now where you are judged based on what you have done this season, what if you went on holiday for 2 weeks at the start of the season? your utterly screwed because while your getting declines for the first week back, and the 2nd week back, the people at the front who played 16 hours a day are moving further away.

If this was a thing i would look for star ratings > rio all day every day. 7k rio and 2star? no thanks. you been carried. 1k rio and 5 star? in you come bro nice to meet you.

[Relapses]

Dude that is EXACTLY the point, when you get into +23/24 keys you shouldnt be missing an interupt otherwise you are wasting everyones time, and the "rank" would be based on your actual class maximising what you can do along side what exactly is interuptable, even if you overlap, as long as your pressing the button when the spell is being cast you get the points, utility usage like an aoe stun or incap would be bonus points, it wouldnt be hard to impliment, the biggest problem wouldnt be implimenting it, it would be the massive outcry of bad players who get shown for what they are and no longer invited to keys they dont belong.

The upside is ANYONE who is good could come back to the game at any moment and within a few days prove there star ratings and start getting invited to higher keys because star rating would overtake rio, i would still keep rio though as a base score for experience, star ratings as a signal of how much of own weight is pulled.

Instead of the system as it is now where you are judged based on what you have done this season, what if you went on holiday for 2 weeks at the start of the season? your utterly screwed because while your getting declines for the first week back, and the 2nd week back, the people at the front who played 16 hours a day are moving further away.

If this was a thing i would look for star ratings > rio all day every day. 7k rio and 2star? no thanks. you been carried. 1k rio and 5 star? in you come bro nice to meet you.

You haven't thought this through much. If you encourage star ratings you're basically going to teach players in easy keys that the only way to get to higher keys is to tryhard and interrupt/CC/control everything. If this "star rating" is enforced, then you're going to have players bitching at each other for "stealing interrupts," or, more likely, just abandoning keys that are otherwise going smoothly because they know they won't get any of that precious star rating from it. It also doesn't address the intentional disparity between certain class kits which are not designed equally. If interrupts are weighted heavily, for example, an Elemental Shaman will have five times the ease getting star rating as a Moonkin. For the record, I don't think Moonkins are people, either, but something like this would naturally make people even less likely to want to bring Moonkins to anything. The only way you can really guarantee that these types of systems aren't abused is to not have them in the first place. A highly skilled player will find their way into the keys they belong in regardless of external rankings like you're suggesting.

[odamienskii]

You haven't thought this through much. If you encourage star ratings you're basically going to teach players in easy keys that the only way to get to higher keys is to tryhard and interrupt/CC/control everything. If this "star rating" is enforced, then you're going to have players bitching at each other for "stealing interrupts," or, more likely, just abandoning keys that are otherwise going smoothly because they know they won't get any of that precious star rating from it. It also doesn't address the intentional disparity between certain class kits which are not designed equally. If interrupts are weighted heavily, for example, an Elemental Shaman will have five times the ease getting star rating as a Moonkin. For the record, I don't think Moonkins are people, either, but something like this would naturally make people even less likely to want to bring Moonkins to anything. The only way you can really guarantee that these types of systems aren't abused is to not have them in the first place. A highly skilled player will find their way into the keys they belong in regardless of external rankings like you're suggesting.

You didnt read what i wrote, even if you overlap you still get the rating, abandon the key? get no star rating, but still a dungeon ran so it will hurt star rating massively overall, only time this should not happen is if someone leaves first.

You are shooting down the idea without giving it much thought, im not sure why, as i said the only people who would be hurt by this system are the people who are playing higher keys than they should be. which in itself is a problem for the playerbase because NOBODY wants to play with someone that doesnt bring there own weight.

[Relapses]

You didnt read what i wrote, even if you overlap you still get the rating, abandon the key? get no star rating, but still a dungeon ran so it will hurt star rating massively overall, only time this should not happen is if someone leaves first.

You are shooting down the idea without giving it much thought, im not sure why, as i said the only people who would be hurt by this system are the people who are playing higher keys than they should be. which in itself is a problem for the playerbase because NOBODY wants to play with someone that doesnt bring there own weight.

I'm shooting the idea down because it seems completely pointless and ripe for abuse. In general, I believe in the principle of Occam's razor. Why add more systems to the game when the ones we have already do a pretty decent job? I've run thousands of keys, many of which well above the KSM level, and the number of times I've felt somebody was truly boosted was in my key are able to be counted on one hand. This issue isn't nearly as endemic as you make it out do be.

[odamienskii]

I'm shooting the idea down because it seems completely pointless and ripe for abuse. In general, I believe in the principle of Occam's razor. Why add more systems to the game when the ones we have already do a pretty decent job? I've run thousands of keys, many of which well above the KSM level, and the number of times I've felt somebody was truly boosted was in my key are able to be counted on one hand. This issue isn't nearly as endemic as you make it out do be.

Dude the problem is blizzards lack of segregation between the playerbase, look at m+1-19 it is absolutely dead, players virtually start at m+20

I did a test before a quit 6 months ago, i made a 19 key, 1 sign in like 3 minutes, i made a 20 key 20 signs in a minute, i made a 22 key and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 2500 players instantly sign..... bottlenecked.

You can test this yourself, im not sure what the average key level is now but try it, make a 19 key for 1 minute see how many sign, then a 20 then a 21 then a 22 then a 23, you will find where the bottleneck is, nothing to tell the players apart, all around the same rio, it doesnt work clearly its only pleasing one section of the playerbase and that is casuals, and even then its going to be pissing them off because they arent climbing anymore, they are just stuck in the bottleneck depleting keys, at least if the playerbase was segregated they would be in 16/17/18 timing more keys progressing. playerbase would be happier as a whole because everyone wouldnt be bunched together.

When you log in you can read a guide about how to increase your star rating and work on how you play, improve....you know....progress.... at all levels, not all just stuck sat there getting declined because there is 30 other shamans and 30 other mages and 30 other druids in the lobby so you dont even get seen.

[Relapses]

Dude the problem is blizzards lack of segregation between the playerbase, look at m+1-19 it is absolutely dead, players virtually start at m+20

This is a ridiculous claim. 2400 rating (having completed all 20s) is currently the top 5% of the playerbase (closer to the top 1% than the bottom 90%).

[odamienskii]

This is a ridiculous claim. 2400 rating (having completed all 20s) is currently the top 5% of the playerbase (closer to the top 1% than the bottom 90%).

I was one of only 3 resto druids in the world to time +23sanguine depths tyranical 6MONTHS ago 8.7khps overall in much less gear than the guy from china and the guy from the phillipenes.

After timing that 23 and realising just how impossible it was going to be to get into 26s as resto druid (where i belong) i rerolled shaman and got 2500 within 3 weeks of dinging.

Just because a dead game made up of mainly casuals has x amount of players in the x y z bracket doesnt mean its accurate, a HUGE portion of the best players quit, a huge portion of what you show in them ratings is casual players with 3* 3* 5*

Take ANY one player thats 2800 put them on a new account with zero rio, how well do you think they will do climbing through all the bad players? simple answer.. they wont because they wont get invited due to low rio, and wont be able to progress when they do get invited because most the lower players are mega mega bad.

The ONLY way you can do well as a late starter is if you have a premade, if you dont have a premade you can kiss goodbye to climbing and having fun, you are going to be stuck in the gutter with all the bads for the majority of the season, by the time you get out? most the top players have burnt out and its a new season.

I always said it, miss the boat to the top in the first couple of weeks and you may aswell unsub if your a top 0.1% world player. where if there was a star rating system any player could come back and slot into there level right away, gear aside. what would be wrong with that?

[Velovictus]

I think you have to first define what you mean by casual. Because in my experience there's two different types of players that this term is often used to describe.

Type A - Is a player who wants to progress but is limited by time and RL commitments. This player might only be able to login for a little bit each day or might have the bulk of their available time on the weekends only. Barrier to entry style systems hurt this player the most because they likely get burnt out just trying to keep up with chores.

Type B - This is a player who has a lot of time they are available to play but simply doesn't want to pursue endgame content in the form of N-Mythic Raids, M+ or Arena/RBGs. Within this type I would argue there are also subsets. Some who simply want to focus on non-competitive aspects of the game (mounts, transmogs, etc) and ones who want solo-style progression.

So I guess it depends on which type you want to cater too.

Well said.
In my guild we have both of those types. The ones that just don't have the time to commit to farming/grinding are usually a little behind sometimes but it doesn't mean they can't ever reach end game. These people usually buy wow tokens and sell them for gold to make ends meet with consumables and just make sure to run at least one high key and raid once or twice a week - and they can enjoy endgame.
The others that just aren't interested in end game are always engaged in the other things that they enjoy.
I don't think there is a need to try to cater to anyone. People will play the game how they want to at their pace.
It's only those that get caught into what others say/think about their playstyles that feel pressured to do something they don't enjoy.