Sylvanas. Dev vs Dev on lore.

[GreenJesus]

How convenient that it's the guy who was let go in disgrace.

Do I think there was pettiness between lead writers? Yes. To the degree being alleged? No.

Also, "see, our Kween was NEVAR bad!" is pure lol worthy. Her entire stint in WoW was villainous, just never in the spotlight. All that really changed was putting her center stage, to the detriment of everyone's ears.

This. Now they can just blame any problem on "Sexual harassment guy" and pretend they didn't do anything wrong.

[Chickat]

Yeah I've been hearing this circulate too now.


My question is: how can 1 person (Afrasiabi) have literally all the power to make choices that were allegedly that bad narratively and known to be vindictive in nature just make them unchecked? Perhaps fear of retaliation which we know now, at many levels, was happening.


In one of the posts I saw it said that Afrasiabi knew he was on his way out so he did what he could in the time he had to do all of the aforementioned.

So he didn't leave blizzard until June of 2021. If he actually was trying to sabotage as much as he could on his way out, all of Shadowlands launch was ruined. The team started pivoting towards Sylvanus having doubts in 9.1, so it's kind of believable to me. He left too late for them to fix Shadowlands. Could also be why they decided that 10.0 was a new chapter. Starting fresh without the damage left by Afrasiabi. If the 10.0 story is good, this is all believable and makes some sense. If 10.0 is bad, it's all BS. let's see what happens.

[Okacz]

This. Now they can just blame any problem on "Sexual harassment guy" and pretend they didn't do anything wrong.

Can't wait for the next expansion, it's going to be just perfect without that pesky predator lurking around in the office, secretly messing with peoples work. I bet he's also responsible for Azerite gear and Highmountain Tauren horns clipping through most shoulderpads.

[Maljinwo]

Man, what are the other writers and game director doing if just one dude can mess up a storyline lmao

[Khaza-R]

So he didn't leave blizzard until June of 2021. If he actually was trying to sabotage as much as he could on his way out, all of Shadowlands launch was ruined. The team started pivoting towards Sylvanus having doubts in 9.1, so it's kind of believable to me. He left too late for them to fix Shadowlands. Could also be why they decided that 10.0 was a new chapter. Starting fresh without the damage left by Afrasiabi. If the 10.0 story is good, this is all believable and makes some sense. If 10.0 is bad, it's all BS. let's see what happens.

*June 2020, before Shadowlands launched.

Not doubt he played some role in the initial direction of Shadowlands. To the extent we really don't know, nor do we know if he was essentially alieved of his duties prior to his termination. But unlikely he had a heavy hand in anything from 9.1 and beyond.

[Super Dickmann]

@Hitei

What @Val the Moofia Boss said. The Forsaken are evil, I think anyone who's so much as seen their intro can say as much, but you're unquestionably the protagonist of your own story. Your guys are the ones who pull sacrifices holding the line, you're the ones moving towards some kind of goal and you achieve that goal and face obstacles towards it. There's a significant difference between that and BFA where the Forsaken are accessories, first to Anduin's story in BTS and then as strawmen in Darkshore, a zone where they've zero reason to be.

[Statius]

So he didn't leave blizzard until June of 2021. If he actually was trying to sabotage as much as he could on his way out, all of Shadowlands launch was ruined. The team started pivoting towards Sylvanus having doubts in 9.1, so it's kind of believable to me. He left too late for them to fix Shadowlands. Could also be why they decided that 10.0 was a new chapter. Starting fresh without the damage left by Afrasiabi. If the 10.0 story is good, this is all believable and makes some sense. If 10.0 is bad, it's all BS. let's see what happens.

June 2020 actually. It's still possible that he could've had some influence on how the story of Shadowlands developed, but even so I find it hard to believe that it would've happened if everyone else had disagreed with him.

If true however, it does put a lot of the Shadowlands defenders in a rather difficult position. Some of the very same people who claim to have insight knowledge regarding this (Taliesin and others) are the ones who initially came out defending the Sylvanas storyline, saying it makes perfect sense and that the problem is simply that we the players aren't paying close enough attention.

So basically what they've proclaimed to love, what they've vehemently defended (often to the extent of ridiculing the ones who have disagreed), is actually the result of a guy who (if this is true - and for the record I still don't think it is) deliberately tried to mess up the story beyond repair. So as someone who hated the Sylvanas storyline, it would be easy to believe this rumor to be true because it would essentially confirm that we were right in disliking it (because it was essentially designed to be disliked) and thus put all of the Blizz apologists to shame.

Just the same I don't think it's true. It's just too convenient. What I could believe was that Afrasiabi and Danuser had different ideas for Sylvanas, and that is why she's so all over the place. Think the Force Awakens meets the Last Jedi. More than anything, I think that is the likely scenario.

[bagina]

I don't like the term "villains". That sorta implies they're supposed to be "defeated" by the "rightful heroes" of the story. Like there's a constant sword hanging over their heads. Which is why I don't like the Cata approach to the Forsaken. Like its no biggie playing as cruel self-serving characters, but the moment the game begins to treat them as the bad guys to be defeated by other races, that kinda ruins it. I don't want the game to take any side is what I'm saying.

[Syegfryed]

Are we suddenly forgetting how Danuser though teldrassil burning was amazing? like he though S8 of game of thrones was amazing too? This dude is just shifting the blame towards someone else, he was on board with everything that happened in the bfa shitshow

Like i said in the other topic, any decent writer would take BfA where it left off, and continue the story of Sylvanas villain, not this half-asset, nonsense, lame redemption route, no one would possibly like this after what was done in BfA, simple doesn't work, making her a compelling and more fleshed out villain would make much more sense.

So, yeah, i don't fully believe in those shenanigans, this would be too petty for everyone who worked in the game to not notice, so tis weird.

Btw, its funny to see how wow lore went to shit when they decided to make Garrosh villain, everything bad happened from that decision, we Got WoD, BfA and Sylvanas on spotlight, everything after that was downhill

[Amnaught]

This is just heartbreaking, really.

[Okacz]

I don't like the term "villains". That sorta implies they're supposed to be "defeated" by the "rightful heroes" of the story. Like there's a constant sword hanging over their heads. Which is why I don't like the Cata approach to the Forsaken. Like its no biggie playing as cruel self-serving characters, but the moment the game begins to treat them as the bad guys to be defeated by other races, that kinda ruins it. I don't want the game to take any side is what I'm saying.

Totally agree. There's a major shift in approach towards Sylvanas and her supporters in BfA, and it's not even about them pulling off major stunts like Teldrassil. It's the way they are displayed on every single cutscene, speaking with this sleazy tone, wax dripping from their curly moustaches. The game even immediately assumes that at this point you'd be fine killing Forsaken as a Horde player, after all they are shown to be the bad guys, right?

Kind of annoying after the more subtle approach in Legion, where Sylvanas rise to power was meant to feel like Horde is being reborn, and her sidequest in Stormheim felt like a genuine attempt to help her people.

[Syegfryed]

Kind of annoying after the more subtle approach in Legion, where Sylvanas rise to power was meant to feel like Horde is being reborn, and her sidequest in Stormheim felt like a genuine attempt to help her people.

the horde would never "be reborn" as a dead elf on the leadership, forsaken thematic is too disconnect and antagonist to 80% of the horde, who focus on shamanism and tribal concepts, it was something DOA and only served to doom the forsaken even further, as they instead of doing their own thing ebcame "face of the horde" with the blood elves second.

The stormheim thingy and her pact with Helya literally showed sylvanas first step into descending to full villainy, as she make a accord with the enemy and attack an ally(trying to enslave the valkyr to her will.. remember someone?), doing her own agenda, in the middle of an Legion invasion.

If the forsaken were supposed to maintain their thematic, from cata and prior, they should not have being brought to the spotlight, like this

[Chickat]

*June 2020, before Shadowlands launched.

Not doubt he played some role in the initial direction of Shadowlands. To the extent we really don't know, nor do we know if he was essentially alieved of his duties prior to his termination. But unlikely he had a heavy hand in anything from 9.1 and beyond.

Idk, google said 2021, but i kinda just trusted google.

[VoidSeeker199X]

Something definitely happened during Legion because that might've been the best expansion we ever had. Then it was followed up by BFA and Shadowlands. IMO what is far more likely is that he actually had good ideas, but he was just a bad dude. Legion was when he was front and center. Legion was good. Then he's removed and there's confusion and chaos in the company. Plus Metzen left, plus a lot of others.

Then we get two horrible expansions BFA and SL. People hate BFA and SL so now it seems like people are scapegoating the guy everyone already hates.

Sorry you still have to own how fucking bad BFA was with the shitty N'Zoth ending...

You still have to own how ridiculous it is to go to the afterlife for an expansion...

You still have to own that you created the worst villain ever invented in this franchise...

You still have to own you made this ludicrous "first ones" 3-D printing shop and destroyed stuff and then claimed this was being built since WC3....


Nope, don't buy it, sorry.

They rushed it. Everything feels so vague and the more you play the more questions arise. It's not satisfying at all. Sylvanas started the war and burned the tree to get stronger because all the souls went to the Jailer. But at the time no one knew that. All this shit wasn't mentioned anywhere in game.
It's not that the story is shit but the way they handled and presented it confuses the fuck out of me.

[Feanoro]

Like I don't know why people ever reached the conclusion that Sylvanas wasn't a 99% villainous character, and think that her burning down a city full of civilians was out of character and an unexpected 180.

For most people, breasts. For the others, it's the same "I want to put babies through woodchippers but also be called a hero" Horde fans, who have a hangup about playing evil characters. They seem to think "I enjoy playing evil, but that makes me a bad person, so therefore my character must not be evil."

[Nathreim]

Instead of trying to fix it half assed just come out apologize that internal fighting ruined a bunch of loved characters and decanon all of it. Thats basically what Star Wars is in the middle of doing right now after the failure of 7-9.

You cant fix this mess without throwing it all in the trash where it belongs just rip that band aid off quick and get it over with.

[deenman]

Funnily enough, at this point I consider Afrasabi the lesser evil when it comes to Sylvanas. BfA shat on Sylvanas but Shadowlands truly annihilated her character forever. I'm more willing to forgive BfA's treatment of Sylvanas, but what they did with her in Shadowlands is unforgivable. It's disgraceful really.

''Leave it to Blizzard to take agency away from another female''

and it couldnt have come at a more memeable time

[Traveler Voltin]

Yeah I've been hearing this circulate too now.


My question is: how can 1 person (Afrasiabi) have literally all the power to make choices that were allegedly that bad narratively and known to be vindictive in nature just make them unchecked? Perhaps fear of retaliation which we know now, at many levels, was happening.


In one of the posts I saw it said that Afrasiabi knew he was on his way out so he did what he could in the time he had to do all of the aforementioned.

You are seriously questioning how 1 person can do all this after learning Blizzard is a toxic place to work for people?

[Maleific]

Then make the right thing and retcon it. Just do it. Restore Teldrassil and erase the whole BfA expansion from the Lore. It's pretty self contained anyway.

Well, with freshly empowered dragon aspects. They could bless another World Tree for them to use, or restore the old one.

That is if all of the dragon expansion leaks are to be believed.

[Okacz]

the horde would never "be reborn" as a dead elf on the leadership, forsaken thematic is too disconnect and antagonist to 80% of the horde, who focus on shamanism and tribal concepts, it was something DOA and only served to doom the forsaken even further, as they instead of doing their own thing ebcame "face of the horde" with the blood elves second.

Don't get me wrong, I too prefer the tribal theme of the Horde and would rather see one of the OG races sit on the Iron Throne. But the Broken Shore incident and its followup made perfect sense, and really felt like Horde under Sylvanas is going somewhere. Her initiative to take command and retreat was displayed as an act that saved the Horde from bleeding out. Her uncertainty after Vol'Jin appointed her a new Warchief was genuine. Her speech was a huge threshold for her to cross, showing that everything she as a member of the Horde wasn't a waste, and she's popular enough to have everyone cheer for her leadership.

Stormheim was set up as her plan to help her people out, plain and simple. Her pact with Helya, enslavement of Eyir (who I didn't give a shit about anyway) were all pragmatic and ruthless moves we'd expect from her since WC III, but didn't make her a full-blown "villain".

It's only in BfA when all those moments were recontextualized as Sylvanas always doing evil shit for evil shit's sake.