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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Forsaken's territorial demands hinge on the totality of the Kingdom of Lordaeron which was one entity by the time it fell and has never been anything but one entity within living memory. No party in game makes this argument because of its obvious asininity - both the living and dead want all of Lordaeron. Not only is whether some random guy in the Forsaken army was born in the places the Forsaken state had not yet brought back under the fold impossible to prove, since randos don't have backstory, it's also patently irrelevant. That Joe Average from Capital City didn't personally live in Andorhal doesn't nullify the Forsaken state's claim over the entire former borders of Lordaeron anymore so than the fact that some random dude in the Red Army wasn't born in Yakutsk means that the Soviet Union would suddenly discard its territorial claims over this land. The territorial claims are defined by the state and brought to reality by the force that the state is able to put on against competing claims for the same land. The Forsaken narrative is that the land of Lordaeron belongs to Lordaeron and their actions at all points lead into that angle. Not omnicide, not world conquest, Lordaeron.
    Got it, Turkey and Egypt both belong to England because they are within the territory that belonged to the Roman empire and do not have the strength to resist NATO.

    Dalaran wasn't hostile in any meaningful way because it was defunct as a state. A handful of randos in ruined houses do not amount to an expansionistic attack on another state no more than mopping up the hostile remnants of Dalaran who forewent the neutrality of Dalaran itself to support the Alliance against the Forsaken.
    No it wasn't. Seriously, what timeline are you even talking about? Dalaran at that point was being actively rebuilt behind its shield. It wasn't randos in ruined house, it was DALARAN. They were not supporting the Alliance against the Forsaken, they were literally standing guard around their own city-state as it was being rebuilt. There's not even an "against" the Forsaken, because prior to Cata there was no "Alliance" offensive anywhere in the region besides WPL and the only places the Alliance and Forsaken were engaged was where the Forsaken were unilaterally attacking the living humans who had been ignoring them and minding their own business in their own homes and cities.

    I
    t's a good thing that the very first quest says otherwise and we see the results of it five minutes later, which can only take place if the Forsaken are permitted to leave and are so laxly overseen that they can create splinter groups only pursued once they prove hostile. Or that there's multiple named NPCS who've left without being pursued by the state in any way
    Yes, I already told you, she likes to TALK about free will being a cornerstone of the faction, but then does not actually practice it. The fact that occasionally slaves are freed does not make them not slaves.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Got it, Turkey and Egypt both belong to England because they are within the territory that belonged to the Roman empire and do not have the strength to resist NATO.
    You're free to call the UK embassy and ask them if they consider the UK a successor state to the Roman Empire and if they, in word or miltarily, assert that this land is theirs. The answer might surprise you. Or alternatively pop open a history book and see how these things work out whenever one form of the state falls and another appears claiming itself to be its successor, from the French Revolution to the Russian and Chinese one. This is not to say that the Forsaken claim on this land is somehow moral anymore so than those of the examples given, but that is a factual description of their claim and also of the policy they pursue.

    No it wasn't. Seriously, what timeline are you even talking about? Dalaran at that point was being actively rebuilt behind its shield. It wasn't randos in ruined house, it was DALARAN. They were not supporting the Alliance against the Forsaken, they were literally standing guard around their own city-state as it was being rebuilt. There's not even an "against" the Forsaken, because prior to Cata there was no "Alliance" offensive anywhere in the region besides WPL and the only places the Alliance and Forsaken were engaged was where the Forsaken were unilaterally attacking the living humans who had been ignoring them and minding their own business in their own homes and cities.
    Yes and what territory exactly were the Forsaken seizing from said ruined huts occupied by a handful of guys, where they were explicitly going just to loot shit? The latter comment refers to Cataclysm which is when the Forsaken deal with Ambermill, which consists of former Dalaran magi.

    Yes, I already told you, she likes to TALK about free will being a cornerstone of the faction, but then does not actually practice it. The fact that occasionally slaves are freed does not make them not slaves.
    We not only see her let people go free, not only see that named characters raised are left on so loose a leash that they can plot coups against her with regularity but that at the very place where people are mass raised not only do they state that people get to choose, but they obviously go through with it, since without oversight a group is created dedicated to overthrowing the Forsaken and making their own (with elbows).
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-25 at 08:56 PM.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    No it wasn't. Seriously, what timeline are you even talking about? Dalaran at that point was being actively rebuilt behind its shield. It wasn't randos in ruined house, it was DALARAN. They were not supporting the Alliance against the Forsaken, they were literally standing guard around their own city-state as it was being rebuilt. There's not even an "against" the Forsaken, because prior to Cata there was no "Alliance" offensive anywhere in the region besides WPL and the only places the Alliance and Forsaken were engaged was where the Forsaken were unilaterally attacking the living humans who had been ignoring them and minding their own business in their own homes and cities.
    This is not true at all. The Forsaken were fighting humans in the Lordaeron area in classic/vanilla because the Humans actively attacked them first. Either via the scarlets or from settlements in and around what was Lordaeron. Let's also remember Chronicals points out that Sylvanas actively sent emissaries to Stormwind between TFT and WoW to gain an alliance with the alliance but were in turn killed off and never got back to Undercity.

    As for Dalaran their mages were out defending human settlements in Silverpine, same settlements that had been attacking forsaken in Silverpine for the crime of existing as undead.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Speaking of which.... This just came up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN0C...iesin%26Evitel
    If those DMs had dates I would be more likely to believe them.

  5. #105
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Secondly, if this whole thing shocked Metzen and people (which is doubt, he has never tried to hide Sylvanas evil nature) then I just do not understand why they are doing it YET AGAIN by giving Danuser full control of the story and letting him twist literaly all of past and present reality so that his waifu can be redeemed.

    It's a pathetic story of one man against the entire established lore for the sake of his favourite character and they are just ignoring it completely. Shadowlands is ruining lore as far back as WC3 for this one reason and no one at Blizzard seems to mind.

    Well, maybe someone. if the rumors are true and Christie Golden had a huge falling out with Danuser about this subject which made him ghost her for months and hence why the Sylvanas book that was supposed to have been released months ago is still not done. Frankly this is making by far too much sense. Sadly Christie has no power over Danuser or his decisions whatsoever.
    Thats why im saying they are using the disagreement with kosak and Afrasiabias a scapegoat to excuse Danuser bullshit, while ignoring Danuser was on top of everything that happened in BfA, including teldrasill burning...it was the expansion when he introduced his self-insert nathanos and the shortstory.

    Making her a villain - going aligned with her character - is not worse than what he did in shadowlands with the Janitor, i doubt Metzen and others would be mad about Afrasiabi when Danuser did much worse rooting the lore far back as the scourge creation as a gran janitor master plan.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-01-25 at 11:47 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Except its quite well documented that she just talks up free will but has no actual respect for it. She multiple times in Cata uses the mentally vulnerable nature of fresh Forsaken to turn the raised into mindless soldiers who will slaughter their own friends and families. Forsaken quests in WPL literally acknowledge that the Val'kyr actively use mind-controlling magic.
    The canon explanation for Forsaken is when they are first raised they have no memory. That memory returns in a few hours but before that the newly raised are extremely impressionable: That's not the same thing as mind control. Neither is a banshee possessiing someone in WC3, at least not technically.

    What is mind-control is Zovaal's domination magic, which even when used you think you're acting of your own volition: They created an (extremely sloppy) perfect explanation for their villains. Literally no one's responsible for their actions if the audience doesn't want to be. Uther even explains it that way: Some of the shit Sylvanas did MIGHT have been the Jailer mind controlling her but she can't even be sure what was her & what wasn't.

    A sloppy, but effective way to distance any creative decisions made during the last 4 years. Actually I have to give Danuser a hand with that story convention.

    "Domination magic: The Cause of & Solution to all of life's problems"

  7. #107
    Over 9000! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Regardless of whether he did it intentionally to spite the character, the game, or the company, Afrasiabi was the guy who charted the course of the story during BFA. I mean, it's kind of lame to just scapegoat all the bad writing onto Afrasiabi as if he was the only one involved, but he was in charge of the story at the time, so he gets to take the blame.

    Personally I think it's unlikely that he was purposefully torpedoing the story. BFA launched in 2018 and he didn't quit until 2020. The investigation started in 2019.

    More likely, he was a just a hack.


    Recall back to what they were saying about BFA:

    Terran Gregory: "Afrasiabi designed this expansion like it would be the last - don’t hold back, go for the mega, seize the day on design. Everyone on this team is absolutely committed to seeing that this thing is as powerful and relevant as long as we can."

    Afrasiabi, regarding the Teldrassil backlash: "All those feelings mean we're doing our job as storytellers, and that the community cares about what we’re doing."

    - https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...usic-Interview

    And a whole bunch of other stupid decisions. He's the guy who floated out the idea of the Legion transcending realities. He tended to pull stuff out of his ass when presented with plot holes and contradictions. There are tons of interviews and probably hours of footage of him discussing the story in panels and behind the scenes features. He was always just kind of a smug prick who seemed to disdain players that strongly cared about the lore and didn't really offer concrete answers.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2022-01-26 at 12:02 AM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Afrasiabi, regarding the Teldrassil backlash: "All those feelings mean we're doing our job as storytellers, and that the community cares about what we’re doing."
    This is a pretty condescending way to look at storytelling. It's probably what the Game of Thrones guys tell themselves. Being outraged by a character action & being outraged by bad writing is actually pretty different & an educated audience know the difference.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2022-01-26 at 12:08 AM.

  9. #109
    wow... that's something that feels good to know, but at the same time sucks a lot.

    For a long time I and others have said that the story changed, that this working for the Jailer all along was some asspull. Beginning of Legion, they set her up to be innocent, but the Alliance still want her head, but then by BFA they go "Ohh wait, nah she is actually evil" and it just made no sense.

    this honestly though, pissed me off so much as a horde player for the past 4-5 years. We have an innocent leader, wrongfully blamed by the alliance, who then gets used as a tool to bring us into the next expansion, having her be the blame for destroying both cities. and then used again as the pawn of the big bad in Shadowlands. None of what happened on Legion matched up with anything that happened after it.

    Going off of Sylvanas from Legion, I always had a feeling the original plan for BFA should have been more of both factions fault, with Genn and Jaina being aggressors of the Alliance. And Shadowlands could have been caused from Sylvanas being desperate to save her and her people, making another deal with Helya or the Jailer and going after the Crown and being made a pawn of him that we fight and save.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karawaka View Post
    It's all bad. Kill off any character that's been prominent since wrath and give some new characters actual growth and spotlight time
    We need more characters that are apart of the race and not characters who the race only exists to support those characters.

    I dont play a Night Elf, but one of the biggest turn offs for me is that the current night elves almost have no identity besides being the race that Tyrande and Malfurion belong to. Hell majority of the race just died off to give Tyrande some character development.

    I've been getting into Warhammer(Fantasy) lately thanks to Total War and I love that each race has different leaders and sub factions and just tons of characters belonging to each race/faction that it never feels like those races exists just for one character's development.

    I think after the burning of Teldrassil for instance, when Tyrande abandoned her people for Malfurion, that would have been a good time for some new young leaders to rise up and lead the night elves. Splinter the night elf faction into a couple sub groups, like one that hides away in Stormwind with Tyrande, another lead by some young feral druid leader who leads a group of night elves to fight against the Horde to reclaim their home and so on.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Self Inflicted Wounds View Post
    If those DMs had dates I would be more likely to believe them.
    Sure, there's no way he backs up his sources other than "Trust me", so it's not credible in any way.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  11. #111
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    wow... that's something that feels good to know, but at the same time sucks a lot.

    For a long time I and others have said that the story changed, that this working for the Jailer all along was some asspull. Beginning of Legion, they set her up to be innocent, but the Alliance still want her head, but then by BFA they go "Ohh wait, nah she is actually evil" and it just made no sense..
    ????

    what? How they could "set her up to be innocent"? you mean in the broken shore thing? that was small potatoes compared to what she already did, plus, she did try to enslave the valkyr queen and made a pact with helya leaving the player to die, this is villain stuff, in legion

  12. #112
    Stood in the Fire George Lucas's Avatar
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    Really amusing how eager so many people are to eat this shit up.

    Bad man did bad thing. All bad things because of him

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ????

    what? How they could "set her up to be innocent"? you mean in the broken shore thing? that was small potatoes compared to what she already did, plus, she did try to enslave the valkyr queen and made a pact with helya leaving the player to die, this is villain stuff, in legion
    Who gives a shit about Eyir? Quite obviously Sylvanas would prioritize her own and her people's immortality over a random neutral party whom no one up to this point knows is friendly, given that all vrykul up to this point without fail have been hostile. Even supposing she had precognition Odyn only contributes two patches later and is willing to let Skovald fight you for the Aegis to the death. Skovald works for the Legion, to remind.

    Sylvanas's worst Stormheim sin is that she doesn't bail you out from Helheim, which she can't do anyway and which comes a line after Helya has threatened her and told her to fuck off from her domain. Before then she starts Stormheim telling you she'll go after Eyir herself and will otherwise give you help to get the Aegis. Quite obviously she doesn't, since Genn attacks the fleet five minutes later, but the only reason the PC doesn't die in the intro is because the Forsaken resuscitate him.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-26 at 11:57 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  14. #114
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Who gives a shit about Eyir?
    I mean, in normal circumstances, i could make blind eye, just like we did in the past, for other reasons, cause that is the gig with forsaken right? doing moral questionable things and since nobody know about/fully know about we just turn a blind eye because the alliance of necessity and fuck the alliance cause common enemies right? that was our merry dynamic that we liked.

    But she was an ally against the Legion, as Odyn and the Valajar were assets for the warrior in defeating the Legion, Eyr was an important asset in the war against the Legion, and if you are a warrior player this directs affect you.

    She could do, but again, forcing someone else to her will, to "submit" still goes against her own code of free will, this is red flag for things to come and slowly setting her up to "doing everything it takes to survive", and her descend to villainy.

    Sylvanas's worst Stormheim sin is that she doesn't bail you out from Helheim, which she can't do anyway and which comes a line after Helya has threatened her and told her to fuck off from her domain.
    Making a deal with the evil, twisted enemy is also another red flag, no matter how you look though, we have plenty of example of those things not going the right way, who could possible think of something good coming out of it?

    And i would not excuse her just because we are able to flip out.

    Point is, she sure was not an entire villain in the horde eyes in Legion, but the expansion raised enough red flags to set up her to be a villain in BfA, the problem with BfA all together was badwriting and how they escalated too quickly, it was coincidentally, the same problem with Garrosh, turn then into hitler and call a day.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I mean, in normal circumstances, i could make blind eye, just like we did in the past, for other reasons, cause that is the gig with forsaken right? doing moral questionable things and since nobody know about/fully know about we just turn a blind eye because the alliance of necessity and fuck the alliance cause common enemies right? that was our merry dynamic that we liked.

    But she was an ally against the Legion, as Odyn and the Valajar were assets for the warrior in defeating the Legion, Eyr was an important asset in the war against the Legion, and if you are a warrior player this directs affect you.

    She could do, but again, forcing someone else to her will, to "submit" still goes against her own code of free will, this is red flag for things to come and slowly setting her up to "doing everything it takes to survive", and her descend to villainy.
    My point is largely that Sylvanas is not aware that Odyn is an ally against the Legion but only that there's a way to get more val'kyr. The experience with vrykul up to this point is all hostile. Even if she were aware of Odyn's status, he's unable to physically help by this point and his moral code makes him guilty of the same we'd be holding against Sylvanas under this reading. He allows Skovald to compete with you for the aegis which, supposing you weren't the main character, would mean he'd either be okay with the Legion grabbing the Aegis provided they did it in a way he approved of or he was fine with an agent of the Legion killing said main character and his friends and then getting zapped, meaning he'd be handicapping the defense of the world.

    As regards this being a violation of the values, one of the reasons that while I've defended the Forsaken the whole thread I've pointed out they're still the most evil is that their morality is entirely in-group focused. They value their own free will, they don't give a shit about the free will of others. Be it that dude with the mind slave in UC or how the whole state only exists because Sylvanas mind-controlled the ogres, bandits and trolls into doing her bitchwork in TFT. Subjugating Eyir isn't a violation of those values, but those values are pretty shit. In this case though the stakes are such that the decision is entirely justifiable. Notwithstanding Odyn's track record which doesn't really matter Sylvanas and the lore at the time operated from the idea that the undead are damned and go to hell. Enslaving Eyir to ensure that yourself and those under your charge don't burn in hell forever is not only acceptable, it'd be derelict on her part not to do it if she had the option.

    Making a deal with the evil, twisted enemy is also another red flag, no matter how you look though, we have plenty of example of those things not going the right way, who could possible think of something good coming out of it?

    And i would not excuse her just because we are able to flip out.

    Point is, she sure was not an entire villain in the horde eyes in Legion, but the expansion raised enough red flags to set up her to be a villain in BfA, the problem with BfA all together was badwriting and how they escalated too quickly, it was coincidentally, the same problem with Garrosh, turn then into hitler and call a day.
    She can't actually do anything to help you unlike Odyn who doesn't have to let Skovald fight you to the death for the Aegis. She is a flippant bitch though, so a chat option to slap her wouldn't have gone unappreciated. As regards Helya, the Odyn/Helya conflict is moot to the interests of the Forsaken and mostly moot to the struggle with the Legion. Besides how Helya has Illidan's soul somehow and I'm not touching the ways that shit makes zero sense with a ten foot pole. Hell Odyn himself later enslaves both Ymiron and the Helarjar and he too operates a personality cult, so it's more the meme of the two Spidermen pointing at each other than Sylvanas kicking an old man while he's down.

    Could those seeds have been used to turn her into a world villain? Sure, we've talked about this before, but Legion itself didn't frame this as a universally negative action. If anything what she does both at the Broken Shore and her reasoning being to keep her people alive and being targeted by the Alliance first makes it a more heroic portrayal than she was in Cataclysm.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-26 at 12:26 PM.
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  16. #116
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    My point is largely that Sylvanas is not aware that Odyn is an ally against the Legion but only that there's a way to get more val'kyr. The experience with vrykul up to this point is all hostile. Even if she were aware of Odyn's status, he's unable to physically help by this point and his moral code makes him guilty of the same we'd be holding against Sylvanas under this reading. He allows Skovald to compete with you for the aegis which, supposing you weren't the main character, would mean he'd either be okay with the Legion grabbing the Aegis provided they did it in a way he approved of or he was fine with an agent of the Legion killing said main character and his friends and then getting zapped, meaning he'd be handicapping the defense of the world.
    I doubt the ''warchief" would not know about the organizations helping against the Legion if we ourselves are part of it, like, the warrior helping her was a Valajar, she does know about it.

    I don't disagree that Odyn was a fucker, but he still was helping us even if not being able to leave, corrupting the king of the valkyr would be a major blow and could mean the end of the valajar.

    As regards this being a violation of the values, one of the reasons that while I've defended the Forsaken the whole thread I've pointed out they're still the most evil is that their morality is entirely in-group focused. They value their own free will, they don't give a shit about the free will of others.
    And that isn't a red flag? seems like a big one to me, going from "we value free will and this is a curse" to, "fuck your free will, and we will spread the curse" seems like is a line that iis faded to, if she was the leader and in the spotlight, to ultimately clash with the values of the faction they were in

    This, would not be a problem, if they were doing their own thing in undercity, hidden, like they did before, but once you "put light on it", everything is exposed, and you can't turn a blind eye no more.


    Could those seeds have been used to turn her into a world villain? Sure, we've talked about this before, but Legion itself didn't frame this as a universally negative action. If anything what she does both at the Broken Shore and her reasoning being to keep her people alive and being targeted by the Alliance first makes it a more heroic portrayal than she was in Cataclysm.
    "universally"? no, but Legion frame her with negative actions, with enough red flags, even if it was good for the forsaken, doesn't mean it is good, or morally correct. Her speecha bout "lets avenge vol'jin" means jack shit as she expend her time seeking her own agenda(that including fighting against guilneas in towers) instead of, you know,avenging vol'jin

    I mean, the cinematic of her imprisoning Eyr totally framed her in a negative way, only misses her twitching her mustache

  17. #117
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I've heard Allerica's voice actor on twitter, the Red Shirt guy, and Taliesin claim it, but I haven't heard it from any of the actual devs or writers yet. Only people from outside Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I am skeptical of rumors that tell fans what they want to hear.
    If actual devs exposed inner workings publicly they could be fired for breaking trust.

    But can confirm I have heard the same from devs privately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Sure, there's no way he backs up his sources other than "Trust me", so it's not credible in any way.
    When one person says it sure.
    But when there is 3 major figures. Tali, red shirt guy, and an actual voice actor at blizz all supporting it, on-top of other content creators confirming they have heard the same...

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    My point is largely that Sylvanas is not aware that Odyn is an ally against the Legion but only that there's a way to get more val'kyr. The experience with vrykul up to this point is all hostile. Even if she were aware of Odyn's status, he's unable to physically help by this point and his moral code makes him guilty of the same we'd be holding against Sylvanas under this reading. He allows Skovald to compete with you for the aegis which, supposing you weren't the main character, would mean he'd either be okay with the Legion grabbing the Aegis provided they did it in a way he approved of or he was fine with an agent of the Legion killing said main character and his friends and then getting zapped, meaning he'd be handicapping the defense of the world.
    While you are right that Sylvanas doesn't know Odyn's standing it is still a stupid risk to take. She has seen Helya who was at this time vastly more powerful then herself. She chose to make a deal with her (which btw we still do not know the contents of... did Sylvanas facilitate the contact to the Jailer?), she did not try to steal that lantern thing.
    Why is she confident that she can screw over another being of at least equal power? She must be aware that if she angers Odyn, there is a chance that this much more powerful being turns against her and the Horde. It is a stupid decision and her motivation for this is as always just self-serving. I will not believe for a second that she ever planned to share the Val'kyr with the Forsaken.

    There is also no explanation why Odyn doesn't murder her outright. Remember, he fuckin kills any Shadow Priest (that has proven themselves worthy through his trials!) without a second thought when they ask the wrong question. So the only reason why he let's Sylvanas live is because the writers are giving her plot armor, not because of any real reason. It's not that Odyn doesn't care, it's just that the writers keep protecting Sylvanas from the consequences of her deeds.

    So that is the problem. There is no in-universe reason for Odyn to spare her, hence why it is never brought up and that pisses me off. You can't just blatantly protect a character from every bad things happening to them, especially if that person has commited brutal and unforgivable crimes. You can do this for a while but if you just keep doing it without any pay-off then it ruins the story.
    Any tension that could come from that character being in danger is going away because we know that even if the in-universe logic doesn't allow it, the writer will just ass-pull something so the character will survive.

    The worst part is that this writing actually puts all the people that demand justice for all of Sylvanas crimes immediatedly on the wrong side. Murdering Sylvanas is now a bad thing, because the poor woman was mind-controlled... how dare we feel angry? Danuser is literally turning the fucking universe around and now WE are the bad guys. It's so spectacularly stupid.

    You know from my earlier posts that I was fairly happy with the story and defended it, but I guess that isn't gonna happen anymore. Thanks to Danuser's writing any positivity I had for this story is dead. He is really doing a good job!

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    For most people, breasts. For the others, it's the same "I want to put babies through woodchippers but also be called a hero" Horde fans, who have a hangup about playing evil characters. They seem to think "I enjoy playing evil, but that makes me a bad person, so therefore my character must not be evil."
    why on the earth i should playing an hero when playing a forsaken? i wanted to be just a sociopathic and transhumanist zombie, thats all.
    why projecting on forsaken player all that bullshit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Got it, Turkey and Egypt both belong to England because they are within the territory that belonged to the Roman empire and do not have the strength to resist NATO.


    No it wasn't. Seriously, what timeline are you even talking about? Dalaran at that point was being actively rebuilt behind its shield. It wasn't randos in ruined house, it was DALARAN. They were not supporting the Alliance against the Forsaken, they were literally standing guard around their own city-state as it was being rebuilt. There's not even an "against" the Forsaken, because prior to Cata there was no "Alliance" offensive anywhere in the region besides WPL and the only places the Alliance and Forsaken were engaged was where the Forsaken were unilaterally attacking the living humans who had been ignoring them and minding their own business in their own homes and cities.

    I
    Yes, I already told you, she likes to TALK about free will being a cornerstone of the faction, but then does not actually practice it. The fact that occasionally slaves are freed does not make them not slaves.
    thats factually false, the entire wanted quests in tarren mill are about humans attacking forsaken citizen

    and btw why are you ignoring the plagueland civil wars? when the forsaken conquered the entire nation
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2022-01-26 at 01:51 PM.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I doubt the ''warchief" would not know about the organizations helping against the Legion if we ourselves are part of it, like, the warrior helping her was a Valajar, she does know about it.

    I don't disagree that Odyn was a fucker, but he still was helping us even if not being able to leave, corrupting the king of the valkyr would be a major blow and could mean the end of the valajar.
    Stormheim takes place at the start of the search for the Pillars while the order hall campaign stretches across the zones. Referring also to @Raisei 's points regarding how smart it was of her to even consider it again, we piece together what's even going on with Odyn and the Valkyra across the zone through the tablets since everyone there is hostile anyway, including to the Alliance who're also hostile to Sylvanas. All Sylvanas knows is that there's a means to propagate more Val'kyr, why this is a positive for her and her race is a given, but the main gig I was getting at is less that Odyn is on the same moral wavelength as she is, though he is, but that neither based on the information available at the time or what we'd go on to learn would her actions be unjustifiable from the perspective of benefitting the faction she's a head and the Helya/Odyn conflict is perennial to the objective of fighting the Scourge. Personally I like Odyn for similar reasons I like the Forsaken and feel the Valarjar should've gotten more screentime after but that's another story entirely.

    "universally"? no, but Legion frame her with negative actions, with enough red flags, even if it was good for the forsaken, doesn't mean it is good, or morally correct. Her speecha bout "lets avenge vol'jin" means jack shit as she expend her time seeking her own agenda(that including fighting against guilneas in towers) instead of, you know,avenging vol'jin
    Also, while Blizzard doesn't feature them because that'd require giving the orcs screentime against their main nemesis we're told later on that the Horde was fighting the Legion throughout so we can assume they didn't sit on its ass for the extent of the conflict.

    And that isn't a red flag? seems like a big one to me, going from "we value free will and this is a curse" to, "fuck your free will, and we will spread the curse" seems like is a line that iis faded to, if she was the leader and in the spotlight, to ultimately clash with the values of the faction they were in

    This, would not be a problem, if they were doing their own thing in undercity, hidden, like they did before, but once you "put light on it", everything is exposed, and you can't turn a blind eye no more.
    It's not a red flag in as much as it's how the state was founded as far back as the RTS. The Forsaken have a pretty transparent group-based morality. It's why nobody cares that Stillwater experimented on humans but the second they see that he's zombifying other Forsaken he's slated for permadeath. It's a transactional viewpoint. As regards Eyir, i've already made the case for why even if that weren't the case any leader who knows that her and her people's fate is to go to turbo hell would not only be justified but morally obligated to prevent it, especially if the means hinge on enslaving a third party.

    Mind this is all moot retrospectively since SL completely fucked up the notion that undead are supposed to be damned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei
    There is also no explanation why Odyn doesn't murder her outright. Remember, he fuckin kills any Shadow Priest (that has proven themselves worthy through his trials!) without a second thought when they ask the wrong question. So the only reason why he let's Sylvanas live is because the writers are giving her plot armor, not because of any real reason. It's not that Odyn doesn't care, it's just that the writers keep protecting Sylvanas from the consequences of her deeds.

    So that is the problem. There is no in-universe reason for Odyn to spare her, hence why it is never brought up and that pisses me off. You can't just blatantly protect a character from every bad things happening to them, especially if that person has commited brutal and unforgivable crimes. You can do this for a while but if you just keep doing it without any pay-off then it ruins the story.
    Any tension that could come from that character being in danger is going away because we know that even if the in-universe logic doesn't allow it, the writer will just ass-pull something so the character will survive.
    Odyn is sealed up at the time Sylvanas tries to take control of Eyir. He has no means to smite anyone, which is why he doesn't go after Sylvanas. Further, given that Odyn still allows Skovald to compete even after he's corrupted 90% of his vrykul followers and has cheated at every trial up to that point and with the stakes being total world obliteration he still allows Skovald to compete for the shield. So whether he'd even have bothered to go after Sylvanas provided she succeeded is dubious, even less so given she failed in her objective. That said the Valarjar going after the Horde over it would have been interesting, but BFA only alludes to it in that retarded Vol'jin Scooby Doo mystery questline and goes nowhere with it.

    As regards the rest of the post especially regarding your own flip on the story, I agree and posted my thoughts as regards some reactions that could've been done to better smooth the Forsaken's perception in and out of their story earlier in the thread, largely hinging on Cataclysm's mistakes with Alliance content. I've been pretty transparent that I find BFA a lot more galling than SL and that much of the reaction hinges on people who've been willing to swallow some truly execrable out of character storytelling when it serves to eliminate elements of the setting they dislike (the Forsaken, all Horde institutions etc.) are chafing now that the bad writing gun has taken aim at parts of the story they do actually appreciate.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-26 at 02:16 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

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