Sylvanas. Dev vs Dev on lore.

[Raisei]

so after reading this thread.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-suite/1171106

brief summary. Kosak vs Alex on lore related things. once Alex got in charge of lore he abused his power to get revenge my making crazy lore choices(like sylvanas being randomly evil by burning down the tree). it shocked even the voice actors and Metzen.

First of all: I simply have no idea how people keep closing their eyes to the truth that Sylvanas was always evil. She wasn't even particularly good when she was alive and became a true monster after she died. Literally one of the first things she did was create a plague to murder the living and dead alike by making guinea pigs of the remaining bits of population that Lordaeron had and her own Forsaken.
All the Sylvanas minions in this Forum just try to deny that when every and all stories about her clearly show that she is a monster. Edge of Night, the Lich King book, that story with Nathanos and his cousin... and and and... the evidence is literally overwhelming.

BFA Sylvanas was never in any way out of character, her actions fit her perfectly. So much so that when the first pictures of burning Teldrassil went around people thought it couldn't be done by Sylvanas BECAUSE THAT WAS TOO OBVIOUS. Turns out creative stories with twists just aren't Alex's thing. He just put the bad guy in the bad guy role.

BFA had some really good stories, the Jaina one for example. Many people just hate it for dropping the small pretense that Sylvanas could ever be anything but a psychopathic monster.

Secondly, if this whole thing shocked Metzen and people (which is doubt, he has never tried to hide Sylvanas evil nature) then I just do not understand why they are doing it YET AGAIN by giving Danuser full control of the story and letting him twist literaly all of past and present reality so that his waifu can be redeemed.

It's a pathetic story of one man against the entire established lore for the sake of his favourite character and they are just ignoring it completely. Shadowlands is ruining lore as far back as WC3 for this one reason and no one at Blizzard seems to mind.

Well, maybe someone. if the rumors are true and Christie Golden had a huge falling out with Danuser about this subject which made him ghost her for months and hence why the Sylvanas book that was supposed to have been released months ago is still not done. Frankly this is making by far too much sense. Sadly Christie has no power over Danuser or his decisions whatsoever.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, maybe someone. if the rumors are true and Christie Golden had a huge falling out with Danuser about this subject which made him ghost her for months and hence why the Sylvanas book that was supposed to have been released months ago is still not done. Frankly this is making by far too much sense.

I can only hope this is true. Golden is behind Calia and BTS and the faster she vacates from anything to do with the Forsaken the better. If true, we can only trust that the Sylvanas book was ghostwritten by someone else in the same way Lord of the Clans was ghostwritten by Metzen. But honestly I really doubt it's the case. Golden is fairly mercenary and is behind both one of the best Garrosh portrayals (Shattering) and one of the worst (Tides of War). It's only with her pet characters like Jaina, Anduin or Baine that you're guaranteed a very specific direction. I doubt she cares one way or another about Sylvanas and so long as she's given instructions that align well she'll produce something servicable. Even BTS' character work isn't entirely naff where Sylvanas is concerned, it's what it's done for and the tremendous retcons to a race she has zero investment in that make it so execrable.

what the fuck that guy is talking about ? BFA was all about female characters like Sylvanas, Jaina or Anduin.

Extremely low-hanging fruit but still made me laugh.

[Hitei]

Aren't you quoting a passage from a story that serves to disprove your point? Edge of Night is about Sylvanas at first believing what you're saying, but finding new purpose in making her people prosper later on.

No? She goes from "They were just a weapon I kept around to kill Arthas, I don't give a shit about them now that they have no use" to "They are just my shield I keep around to prevent myself from dying, I don't give a shit about them except that I don't want them pointlessly killed off before they can die for me"

She does not give a shit about them prospering at any point. They are just tools/weapons to her both pre and post val'kyr, they exist solely to get what she wants (first 'Arthas', and then 'not dying'). She's not angry that some of them are dying because of Garrosh, she's angry that they are being "squandered" instead of "used wisely".

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The entire point about invading multiple non-hostile kingdoms is laughable. The total kingdoms invaded by the Forsaken throughout the entirety of the game prior to BFA is one (1), that being Gilneas, which they were ordered to go after despite their disinterest. The only other they even operate in with the intent to control territory is Lordaeron, which they have a claim to as its actual denizens and where everyone else is actively trying to wipe them out. The Scarlet Crusade are the most explicit example, but prior to BTS, the Stormwind human position is that destroying the undead is a moral good and that the best thing you can do for them is kill them and burn their hearts in an altar. The war is a total one by default and the idea that there's anything morally repugnant about the Blight in a setting where a standard form of attack is burning someone alive with a fireball, an irl warcrime and a slightly less standard but still regular one is a warlock or shadow priest irrreparably damaging your eternal soul, neither the point about the Forsaken being omnicidal nor about them using some uniquely morally moot way to do so bears relation to reality..

What's laughable is you responding like this when you don't remember basic questing lore. The Forsaken invade Gilneas which is practicing isolation and poses no threat, the remants of Lordaeron in Hillsbrad, farmers who are just going about their lives in the homes they've had for generations, and Dalaran, whose mages are just minding their own business and trying to fix their destroyed city.

The Forsaken are not concerned with territory "that was theirs in life" because literally none of them have any fucking claim to any of the settlements they attack outside of the SINGLE instance in Western Plaguelands' quest about brothers inheritance. Hillsbrad has never belonged to them, it belonged to the people who were still currently living there and had been living there even before Lordaeron fell. Who is even claiming dominion in your hypothetical political structure? The Menethil line is solely Calia, who made absolutely no claim to the region and who I'm 100% sure you would hilariously, and hypocritically argue has "no claim" to any of the lands of Lordaeron because "iT bElOngS tO tHe OnEs wHo LIvE tHerE". The Forsaken went "Nah, we kinda want to take those cities down there that we've never lived in at any point because we're from northern Lordaeron and the citizens of southern Lordaeron never died in the first place" walked down and began attacking.

They have no claim to Dalaran, a completely separate kingdom. They simply started slaughtering the mages trying to fix the city because they figured they might have something of value on them because they're mages.

They had no claim to Gilneas, they just attacked it because there wasn't a wall to stop them anymore, Garrosh wanted a port and Sylvanas was happy to have more land.

In turn, even her stance to use the Val'kyr are viewed and give undead any free will are seen as grounds for her overthrow by Stillwater. Far from being some monolith waging indiscriminate omnicide or oppressing everyone she takes over,

Except its quite well documented that she just talks up free will but has no actual respect for it. She multiple times in Cata uses the mentally vulnerable nature of fresh Forsaken to turn the raised into mindless soldiers who will slaughter their own friends and families. Forsaken quests in WPL literally acknowledge that the Val'kyr actively use mind-controlling magic.

A val'kyr's only purpose is to serve, and this one serves you. I am now giving you full control over her abilities, <name>.

Roaming around the farm's outskirts, you should find several of the Forsaken that you just created. I want you to use your val'kyr to charm at least five of them. Once you have done so, take your newly-formed band of soldiers, bring them into Felstone's barn, and kill the beast inside. Today, they will learn what it means to fight for the Dark Lady.

Their campaign is not world-wide destruction early on because they do not have the authority or position to make it so. They still actively destroy anything nearby that they do have the position and resources to.

[Karawaka]

It's all bad. Kill off any character that's been prominent since wrath and give some new characters actual growth and spotlight time

[Super Dickmann]

@Hitei

So still one kingdom then? The Forsaken's territorial claims are stated outright by Sylvanas - Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken in death as it did in life. There is no southern or northern Lordaeron, there is only one Lordaeron and it belongs to the Forsaken successor state. It'd be like claiming the Soviet Union has no claim to the territories of the Russian Empire because they'd capped all the Romanovs. The source of internal legitimacy the state uses to explain itself has changed, but the successor state still has all the same territorial claims and it enforces them over physically weaker pretenses to the same territory, being those of the living Lordaeronians.

As for Dalaran, killing the handful mages left over (who were supporting the Alliance and were hostile to them I might add) doesn't constitute an attack on a functional kingdom. Especially since the Forsaken's most meaningful fight against them were against the dudes in Ambermill after Dalaran had already moved. As regards Sylvanas using the vulnerability of those she's raised to her advantage, yes, she does, and afterwards she lets them do whatever, hence why she has the highest quota of internal betrayals based on those undead who think she isn't acting harshly enough in pushing her interests. Until BTS and BFA where they turn into spineless goons for her instead of the race most prone to contesting their leader through force.

[Venziir]

First of all: I simply have no idea how people keep closing their eyes to the truth that Sylvanas was always evil. She wasn't even particularly good when she was alive and became a true monster after she died. Literally one of the first things she did was create a plague to murder the living and dead alike by making guinea pigs of the remaining bits of population that Lordaeron had and her own Forsaken.
All the Sylvanas minions in this Forum just try to deny that when every and all stories about her clearly show that she is a monster. Edge of Night, the Lich King book, that story with Nathanos and his cousin... and and and... the evidence is literally overwhelming.

BFA Sylvanas was never in any way out of character, her actions fit her perfectly. So much so that when the first pictures of burning Teldrassil went around people thought it couldn't be done by Sylvanas BECAUSE THAT WAS TOO OBVIOUS. Turns out creative stories with twists just aren't Alex's thing. He just put the bad guy in the bad guy role.

BFA had some really good stories, the Jaina one for example. Many people just hate it for dropping the small pretense that Sylvanas could ever be anything but a psychopathic monster.

Secondly, if this whole thing shocked Metzen and people (which is doubt, he has never tried to hide Sylvanas evil nature) then I just do not understand why they are doing it YET AGAIN by giving Danuser full control of the story and letting him twist literaly all of past and present reality so that his waifu can be redeemed.

It's a pathetic story of one man against the entire established lore for the sake of his favourite character and they are just ignoring it completely. Shadowlands is ruining lore as far back as WC3 for this one reason and no one at Blizzard seems to mind.

Well, maybe someone. if the rumors are true and Christie Golden had a huge falling out with Danuser about this subject which made him ghost her for months and hence why the Sylvanas book that was supposed to have been released months ago is still not done. Frankly this is making by far too much sense. Sadly Christie has no power over Danuser or his decisions whatsoever.

This would explain why and how she went from being quite vocal to complete silent.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This would explain why and how she went from being quite vocal to complete silent.

This was just from a obviously fake leak nothing actually points to it have a shred of validity.

The sylvanas book was likely done months ago but they pushed it back because 9.2 has been longer to make due to working at home.

[Venziir]

Speaking of which.... This just came up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN0C...iesin%26Evitel

[Magnagarde]

Trying to cover for Danuser, which is spearheaded by several content creators for WoW, falls flat considering so many of us noticed Danuser's personal investment in Sylvanas since his Dark Mirror short. Zovaal and the "First Ones" are almost certainly Danuser's work, considering he seems so eager to "close one Warcraft book". Them saying that "10.0 is his baby" doesn't instill hope.

Afrasiabi is a convenient scapegoat at this particular time due to his alleged involvement in whatever bad stuff supposedly went down at Blizzard. He couldn't have forced them to go through with the current story telepathically. It has always been clear to all of us that Sylvanas had one direction under Metzen and other directions under other writers.

Danuser's job was to see beyond his infatuation with Sylvanas' character, beyond the self-inserted characterization of Nathanos and come up with a senseful epilogue for what was handed down to him. After the Blood War, Teldrassil and Saurfang's fate, nothing short of a Gul'danesque disenchantment of Sylvanas would've sufficed.

[Venziir]

This was just from a obviously fake leak nothing actually points to it have a shred of validity.

The sylvanas book was likely done months ago but they pushed it back because 9.2 has been longer to make due to working at home.

Probably. However, it's still odd how that Golden was very vocal during Legion and early BFA and now...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Probably. However, it's still odd how that Golden was very vocal during Legion and early BFA and now...

Golden didn't even work at blizzard in legion she was still a contractor then.

As to her being vocal every time a new cutscene or the like comes out she seems to talk about it a ton when ever I check but that obviously wouldn’t be the case with every thing so spread out and delayed.

No clue if she’s vocal not around releases.

[Hitei]

@Hitei

So still one kingdom then? The Forsaken's territorial claims are stated outright by Sylvanas - Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken in death as it did in life. There is no southern or northern Lordaeron, there is only one Lordaeron and it belongs to the Forsaken successor state. It'd be like claiming the Soviet Union has no claim to the territories of the Russian Empire because they'd capped all the Romanovs. The source of internal legitimacy the state uses to explain itself has changed, but the successor state still has all the same territorial claims and it enforces them over physically weaker pretenses to the same territory, being those of the living Lordaeronians.

As for Dalaran, killing the handful mages left over (who were supporting the Alliance and were hostile to them I might add) doesn't constitute an attack on a functional kingdom. Especially since the Forsaken's most meaningful fight against them were against the dudes in Ambermill after Dalaran had already moved.

No, it's like claiming that Kim Jong-un has no claim to Seoul simply because "it used to be one country". What makes you think that the entirety of Lordaeron somehow belongs to the people who used to live in part of Lordaeron, but for some reason the people who ALSO LIVED IN LORDAERON AND CONTINUE TO DO SO don't have any claim to the towns where they have always lived and continued to live? This is such a dumb argument. The Forsaken """"sucessor state"""" never had control of those territories at ANY point.

You might as well argue it's totes okay for England to invade Turkey, because """It's all the Roman Empire and it belongs to the English successor state and not any of these physically weaker governments with pretenses""". The Forsaken aren't the interim government, they have no connection to the collapsed kingdom, they aren't successors. They are random citizens of the Tirisfal Glades region who banded together and took over a couple towns in the northern part of the remnants of Lordaeron--then decided that the still living parts of Lordaeron minding their own business, and the belongings of the struggling mages of Dalaran, and the isolated separated kingdom of Gilneas also arbitrarily belonged to them and needed to be wiped out of existence.

Daralan was not hostile in any meaningful way outside of literal red-NPC gameplay, which is just an insane justification for hostility. They were doing nothing to the Forsaken, they were not attacking. They were guarding their own city, and you don't get told "Those guys are hostile to us! We have to stop them" You get told "Lol, there are mages over there who might have cool stuff to steal, kill them and take it"

As regards Sylvanas using the vulnerability of those she's raised to her advantage, yes, she does, and afterwards she lets them do whatever, hence why she has the highest quota of internal betrayals based on those undead who think she isn't acting harshly enough in pushing her interests. Until BTS and BFA where they turn into spineless goons for her instead of the race most prone to contesting their leader through force.

Lmao, no she doesn't. Afterwards she tells them "join the Forsaken and serve under me, or be killed again"

You are seriously just arguing from a place of ignorance.

[Daronokk]

My question is: how can 1 person (Afrasiabi) have literally all the power to make choices that were allegedly that bad narratively and known to be vindictive in nature just make them unchecked? Perhaps fear of retaliation which we know now, at many levels, was happening.

Not only that, but before it was 1 person (Afrasiabi) that wanted to turn Garrosh into a hero, one of the good guys (see Stonetalon questing), and yet the rest of the team didn't seem to agree with him. We all know how things ended.

Safe to say it doesn't seem plausible that Afrasiabi had that much power. So the rumor seems like a bad attempt at shoehorning the blame at someone who already left Blizzard so that real people responsible don't have to take the blame and account for them.

If there's one person f*cking up the lore it's Danuser.

Metzen was awesome, Kosak was good but I just hated how he turned Orcs evil again, resurrecting past heroes only to kill them off again, Afrasiabi was good at contuining Metzen's work and he went all out with Legion, which should've ended the MMO story, going out with a bang, ending many storylines. Danuser is just a poor guy whose lore is the equivalent of "my father can beat up your father", having to constantly one-up existing lore to make himself feel better. His love for virtual characters is also quite unsettling.

[Khaza-R]

Speaking of which.... This just came up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN0C...iesin%26Evitel

Would make sense if true. Considering the massive tonal shift for Sylvanas from A Good War to Shadowlands.

But it also means the current cdevs are responsible for pretty much of all the awful writing in BfA (minus Teldrassil) and Shadowlands

[Ersula]

So now they blame Afrasiabi for everything. Easy, as he is gone.

The Josswhedonization of BFA

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Lmao, no she doesn't. Afterwards she tells them "join the Forsaken and serve under me, or be killed again"

Afrasiabi interviews are not canon. Not anymore at least.

[Venziir]

Would make sense if true. Considering the massive tonal shift for Sylvanas from A Good War to Shadowlands.

But it also means the current cdevs are responsible for pretty much of all the awful writing in BfA (minus Teldrassil) and Shadowlands

I mean... It sounds believable.

[Super Dickmann]

No, it's like claiming that Kim Jong-un has no claim to Seoul simply because "it used to be one country". What makes you think that the entirety of Lordaeron somehow belongs to the people who used to live in part of Lordaeron, but for some reason the people who ALSO LIVED IN LORDAERON AND CONTINUE TO DO SO don't have any claim to the towns where they have always lived and continued to live? This is such a dumb argument. The Forsaken """"sucessor state"""" never had control of those territories at ANY point.

The Forsaken's territorial demands hinge on the totality of the Kingdom of Lordaeron which was one entity by the time it fell and has never been anything but one entity within living memory. No party in game makes this argument because of its obvious asininity - both the living and dead want all of Lordaeron. Not only is whether some random guy in the Forsaken army was born in the places the Forsaken state had not yet brought back under the fold impossible to prove, since randos don't have backstory, it's also patently irrelevant. That Joe Average from Capital City didn't personally live in Andorhal doesn't nullify the Forsaken state's claim over the entire former borders of Lordaeron anymore so than the fact that some random dude in the Red Army wasn't born in Yakutsk means that the Soviet Union would suddenly discard its territorial claims over this land. The territorial claims are defined by the state and brought to reality by the force that the state is able to put on against competing claims for the same land. The Forsaken narrative is that the land of Lordaeron belongs to the unliving of Lordaeron and their actions at all points lead into that angle. Not omnicide, not world conquest, Lordaeron.

Dalaran wasn't hostile in any meaningful way because it was defunct as a state. Killing a handful of randos in ruined houses do not amount to an expansionistic attack on another state no more than mopping up the hostile remnants of Dalaran in Ambermill who forewent the neutrality of Dalaran itself to support the Alliance against the Forsaken does.

Lmao, no she doesn't. Afterwards she tells them "join the Forsaken and serve under me, or be killed again"

You are seriously just arguing from a place of ignorance.

It's a good thing that the very first quest says otherwise and we see the results of it five minutes later, which can only take place if the Forsaken are permitted to leave and are so laxly overseen that they can create splinter groups only pursued once they prove hostile. Or that there's multiple named NPCS who've left without being pursued by the state in any way. That said the reason CDev had to cut in at all is because of how inconsistently this bit is handled, ranging from Tirisfal where it's all willing to Silverpine when mass necromancy of dudes who then immediately salute is the norm, so unlike not bothering to finish Edge of Night in favor of quotemining or ignoring BTS' Sylvanas internal monologue as regards her view on the Forsaken and what she means to do with Eyir, that isn't on you.

On the side-topic of which position on this Metzen would be on, play Starcraft II. You'll know.

[Vakna]

They could have just wrote it off and killed Sylvanas at Lordaeron after Afrasiabi burned the world tree and fucked off. But they decided to go this route and not only fuck Sylvanas further, but also butcher an entire cosmic history.

IF this is all true, then I'd say like 95% of the blame is on the current narrative team not Afrasiabi. He is a dickhead for sure, but if someone puts you in a hole you don't fucking dig yourself deeper.

[Hitei]

The Forsaken's territorial demands hinge on the totality of the Kingdom of Lordaeron which was one entity by the time it fell and has never been anything but one entity within living memory. No party in game makes this argument because of its obvious asininity - both the living and dead want all of Lordaeron. Not only is whether some random guy in the Forsaken army was born in the places the Forsaken state had not yet brought back under the fold impossible to prove, since randos don't have backstory, it's also patently irrelevant. That Joe Average from Capital City didn't personally live in Andorhal doesn't nullify the Forsaken state's claim over the entire former borders of Lordaeron anymore so than the fact that some random dude in the Red Army wasn't born in Yakutsk means that the Soviet Union would suddenly discard its territorial claims over this land. The territorial claims are defined by the state and brought to reality by the force that the state is able to put on against competing claims for the same land. The Forsaken narrative is that the land of Lordaeron belongs to Lordaeron and their actions at all points lead into that angle. Not omnicide, not world conquest, Lordaeron.

Got it, Turkey and Egypt both belong to England because they are within the territory that belonged to the Roman empire and do not have the strength to resist NATO.

Dalaran wasn't hostile in any meaningful way because it was defunct as a state. A handful of randos in ruined houses do not amount to an expansionistic attack on another state no more than mopping up the hostile remnants of Dalaran who forewent the neutrality of Dalaran itself to support the Alliance against the Forsaken.

No it wasn't. Seriously, what timeline are you even talking about? Dalaran at that point was being actively rebuilt behind its shield. It wasn't randos in ruined house, it was DALARAN. They were not supporting the Alliance against the Forsaken, they were literally standing guard around their own city-state as it was being rebuilt. There's not even an "against" the Forsaken, because prior to Cata there was no "Alliance" offensive anywhere in the region besides WPL and the only places the Alliance and Forsaken were engaged was where the Forsaken were unilaterally attacking the living humans who had been ignoring them and minding their own business in their own homes and cities.

I

t's a good thing that the very first quest says otherwise and we see the results of it five minutes later, which can only take place if the Forsaken are permitted to leave and are so laxly overseen that they can create splinter groups only pursued once they prove hostile. Or that there's multiple named NPCS who've left without being pursued by the state in any way

Yes, I already told you, she likes to TALK about free will being a cornerstone of the faction, but then does not actually practice it. The fact that occasionally slaves are freed does not make them not slaves.

[Super Dickmann]

Got it, Turkey and Egypt both belong to England because they are within the territory that belonged to the Roman empire and do not have the strength to resist NATO.

You're free to call the UK embassy and ask them if they consider the UK a successor state to the Roman Empire and if they, in word or miltarily, assert that this land is theirs. The answer might surprise you. Or alternatively pop open a history book and see how these things work out whenever one form of the state falls and another appears claiming itself to be its successor, from the French Revolution to the Russian and Chinese one. This is not to say that the Forsaken claim on this land is somehow moral anymore so than those of the examples given, but that is a factual description of their claim and also of the policy they pursue.

No it wasn't. Seriously, what timeline are you even talking about? Dalaran at that point was being actively rebuilt behind its shield. It wasn't randos in ruined house, it was DALARAN. They were not supporting the Alliance against the Forsaken, they were literally standing guard around their own city-state as it was being rebuilt. There's not even an "against" the Forsaken, because prior to Cata there was no "Alliance" offensive anywhere in the region besides WPL and the only places the Alliance and Forsaken were engaged was where the Forsaken were unilaterally attacking the living humans who had been ignoring them and minding their own business in their own homes and cities.

Yes and what territory exactly were the Forsaken seizing from said ruined huts occupied by a handful of guys, where they were explicitly going just to loot shit? The latter comment refers to Cataclysm which is when the Forsaken deal with Ambermill, which consists of former Dalaran magi.

Yes, I already told you, she likes to TALK about free will being a cornerstone of the faction, but then does not actually practice it. The fact that occasionally slaves are freed does not make them not slaves.

We not only see her let people go free, not only see that named characters raised are left on so loose a leash that they can plot coups against her with regularity but that at the very place where people are mass raised not only do they state that people get to choose, but they obviously go through with it, since without oversight a group is created dedicated to overthrowing the Forsaken and making their own (with elbows).