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  1. #321
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Those are QUESTS. I am talking the over arching main storyline. He was not involved on those at all. He literally had 0 say. He ONLY started on the main stortline/xpac narrative for SL.
    It's doubtful that this is even 100% the case. Afrasiabi, senior creative director for World of Warcraft, was fired was fired in June of 2020. Production on SL was well underway in 2019. Among the very first things established in the infrastructure of an expansion is character arcs and story beats which would be earlier than general production. This is so that the cinematic and cut scene teams can get on with their work as well as the quest writing team. The timeline does not support that SL was Danuser's baby in any way. I'm not trying to whitewash Danuser here; just pointing out that Blizzard's leadtimes lead to a lot of stuff being settled very early on, usually before serious production starts. The writing team is indeed a team and their output will be the output of a committee and watered down due to that. Even the writing teaw is following an outline created by someone. That someone would seem to be the Creative Director for World of Warcraft (Afrasiabi). It's silly to imagine that given the history there that Afrasiabi wasn't the major drive behind the story of SL.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-01-27 at 08:04 PM.
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  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's doubtful that this is even 100% the case. Afrasiabi, senior creative director, was fired was fired in June of 2020. Production on SL was well underway in 2019. Among the very first things established in the infrastructure of an expansion is character arcs and story beats which would be earlier than general production. This is so that the cinematic and cut scene teams can get on with their work as well as the quest writing team. The timeline does not support that SL was Danuser's baby in any way. I'm not trying to whitewash Danuser here; just pointing out that Blizzard's leadtimes lead to a lot of stuff being settled very early on, usually before serious production starts. The writing team is indeed a team and their output will be the output of a committee and watered down due to that. It's silly though to imagine that given the history there that Afrasiabi wasn't the major drive behind the story of SL.
    What doesn't make sense on the otherside of this argument to me is that you mean to tell me the dude who had HR bury complaints against him somehow wasn't able to influence the narrative of the thing he's in charge of? One is literally potential criminal liability, the other making gamers mad, if he could do one, he did both no doubt because again this is Afrasiabi who's a terrible pos.

  3. #323
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    What doesn't make sense on the otherside of this argument to me is that you mean to tell me the dude who had HR bury complaints against him somehow wasn't able to influence the narrative of the thing he's in charge of? One is literally potential criminal liability, the other making gamers mad, if he could do one, he did both no doubt because again this is Afrasiabi who's a terrible pos.
    That's my point: he was Senior Creative Director and had been the primary force behind WoW's story for years. There's zero reason to believe that a year before he was fired that, as creative director, he didn't lay down the major story arcs for SL. It's beyond me to understand how people forget that the main pieces of an expansion are laid out for the production teams two years before they launch.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    That's my point: he was Senior Creative Director and had been the primary force behind WoW's story for years. There's zero reason to believe that a year before he was fired that, as creative director, he didn't lay down the major story arcs for SL. It's beyond me to understand how people forget that the main pieces of an expansion are laid out for the production teams two years before they launch.
    I agree. It's just nutty to think that this dude didn't have that kind of power. He again was literally suppressing HR reports against him, if he was doing that there shouldn't be any doubt he used his power over the narrative which he was given full control over.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Agreed -- the Rule of Cool can be used for both good and bad. Arthas' purging of Stratholme was likely an invocation of the same principle, they just did a much better job patching it together and making a cohesive story from it.
    Sure, the Rule of Cool can be used for good. I'm just saying Alex did not use it correctly, which is why he's a really bad story teller. He would like something really cool and then implement it without any forethought to what impact it would have to the story.

    I'm all for people implementing really cool story points. They just have to have the direction of the story mapped out so they don't make a mess. Then sometimes, when you have a map, you can realize, "oh this cool thing breaks the story"...then you don't do it.

    ----------

    Of course, the biggest hurdle, IMO, Blizzard has is that they implemented WoW in such a way that each faction has their own definition of protagonist and antagonist. That makes story telling extremely difficult, as most stories have everyone cheering for the success of the same person or group. So we know this huge challenge exists, then Alex goes and blows up the capital city of one faction, 'cause it's cool, and that makes it all that much more difficult to figure the direction of the story so as to still satisfy both factions.

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  6. #326
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I agree. It's just nutty to think that this dude didn't have that kind of power. He again was literally suppressing HR reports against him, if he was doing that there shouldn't be any doubt he used his power over the narrative which he was given full control over.
    The HR stuff is a side show. His job was to be the Creative Director for World of Warcraft. Everyone on the writing team eventually, if not directly, reported to him. Just unimaginable to think otherwise in 2018/2019 when SL was in its infancy.
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  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's doubtful that this is even 100% the case. Afrasiabi, senior creative director for World of Warcraft, was fired was fired in June of 2020. Production on SL was well underway in 2019.
    This can't be overstated enough. Not only did Afrasiabi cause the mess, he was in charge of story of SL when it was decided on. There's way too much supporting content that has to be created to believe the story wasn't already fleshed out by Afrasiabi himself before he left.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  8. #328
    Didn't Danuser write Shadowlands? The story isn't too bad, there just isn't enough story to play. For example, there's so little story in the questline post leveling, that it gets timegated.

  9. #329
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    ...then Alex goes and blows up the capital city of one faction, 'cause it's cool, and that makes it all that much more difficult to figure the direction of the story so as to still satisfy both factions.
    Blowing up Teldrassil is pure Afrasiabi. As was killing off so many major lore characters in Legion.

    Shocking. Epic. For Afrasiabi, a Venn Diagram of the two things is a perfect circle. It doesn't need to make sense or to even work out what the ramifications over future lore will be if the event itself is essentially clickbait shock and awe (epicness). He loved to write shocking stuff. Sometime dig out the thing he did for the Legion reveal. He's just reveling in the idea of all the shocking stuff that will happen. WoW is hard enough to write for given the torpid pace at which stuff gets revealed but Afrasiabi wasn't especially interested in any of that. It was just pure schlock writing primarily for effect not for long-term narrative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    Didn't Danuser write Shadowlands? The story isn't too bad, there just isn't enough story to play. For example, there's so little story in the questline post leveling, that it gets timegated.
    You can read posts in this thread starting at #327 to establish a timeline. It seems unlikely that Danuser was in solely in charge of writing Shadowlands. He was nowhere senior enough when the expansion was being created and Afrasiabi was still creative director at that time and for many months afterward. It's also fair that story and systems, i.e. 'stuff to do' are done by different teams.
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  10. #330
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akta View Post
    You keep on claiming sl is danauser job pretending to ignore every logicai conclusion.
    What is the "every logical conclusion"? that Danuser as lead writer, didn't work on shadowlands lore? lmao

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Afrasiabi was literally the man in charge of 8.0 and 8.1, and Shadowlands. You know, the period where you accuse Danuser of ramming through Nathanos, a character who hasn't been in the story since Shadowlands prepatch.
    Afrasiabi was removed wow after BfA launched and then fired in 2020

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Afrasiabi was removed wow after BfA launched and then fired in 2020
    ...which was still after the story of SLs was already decided on.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    ...which was still after the story of SLs was already decided on.
    According to Bellular there was a big change to Shadowlands story during development. Of course that all he knows. So that could of been Steve shifting the story away from what Alex wrote. Could be something else.

    At this point its really all just speculation.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcinatoss View Post
    Afrasiabi just seems like a scapegoat. I suppose we'll see in 10.0.
    Pretty much it. Blizzard tried to use the Jailer as a scapegoat, didn't work, now they're trying to use a real person that hasn't been working in WoW for years...

    I really don't understand why Sylvanas must be redeemed, Arthas is a major villain and yet is probably the most remembered/liked/charismatic/memorable character in the whole Warcraft franchise.

    Sylvanas redemption arc is doing more harm to her character than if she had become a true villain, and this redemption arc falls all on Danuser's shoulders.

  14. #334
    I dont think Alex sabotaged it, I think Alex was a hack writer who didnt plan shit out. Without redeeming Danuser, we can say that Afriasiabi had to have been able to influence the story direction from his position during BFA and early Shadowlands development. If we go into that idea, then Danuser cant repair shit story and just makes it worse.

    10.0 is Danuser's big chance to show that this is all just Afriasiabi -- like the supposed leak is saying. Though I think this all coming from a twitter thread by a VA who worked on an entirely different Blizzard game whose entire Twitter is Windrunner stanning might show some unreliable narrator.

  15. #335
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Those are QUESTS. I am talking the over arching main storyline. He was not involved on those at all. He literally had 0 say. He ONLY started on the main stortline/xpac narrative for SL.
    And shadowlands is as much or even worse than BfA, thats the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Its just very single minded thinking its the fault of one person, when obviously more are involved.
    Just because "there is more people involed" doesn't means he does not get the blame. s he was the guy who was supposed to oversee the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    ...which was still after the story of SLs was already decided on.
    And why afrasiabi would make her a villain to redeem her in shadowlands?


    No one is seeing how things don't add? clearly SL was changed along the way by Someone else, you know, someone who took the lead position.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-01-27 at 10:01 PM.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    respectfully, i have no idea what you tried to say here. im bad at picking sarcasm too.
    It wasn't sarcasm, sorry, I didn't explain myself very well. Imagine how bad it must feel if all those designers and writers and artists, many of them die-hard Alliance and Night Elf fans, many of them knowing what a bad and abusive dude Afrasiabi was, had to to put up with him forcing through the War of Thorns and they just have to deal with it because he's been at the company forever. A crappy story gets written because they're trying to find sense in this totally arse-ended top-level story decision. All the cinematics have been commissioned and they all just have to go with it. Suddenly, he's finally gone, and they can tell the story they want to tell, but only after this massive commitment to the work already done for BfA, and, after this really awful irreconcilable event has taken place that totally ruined the tone of the story for the next 2 planned expansions.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Here's where your little theory fails, I'd explain for eepteenth time, but this post does it best.




    Other than that - I think I said it plainly enough - it's compounding issue. Buy you REALLY can't blame Danuser for "set the direction" part. It's just not there.

    You could say, for example, that current team could not get out of the plan set in motion long ago well enough to your liking. That'd be acceptable (ish, because they can't unmake 4 years of plot setup anyway, it's not Disney's Star Wars), but claiming they are the ones who "set the direction" - bruh... that ship has sailed looong before Danuser and co were at the head of anything.
    The current team are at the helm, and have been since ~8.2 ish release. They are the ones that have not delivered the job of fleshing out or developing the jalier, of making him actually worth giving a fuck about at all. They are responsible for the story we see and the lore we read. Nothing they do is set it stone.

    They chose this direction, to fist in the jailer without building him up. Hell, every interaction or moment with the Jailer either in game or via cutscene is just "nothing escapes the maw" "you will all serve" "I will unmake everything" and not once during the entire Shadowlands questing experience or cutscenes does any NPC lay out what his motivations are beyond very simple one-liners about him once being among them as the arbiter.

    As much as I hate multiple medium to portray a story that should ultimately be in the fucking game, they've had plenty of time over the last 2 years to release books, short stories etc that develop the Jailer and have done jack shit.

    All of this ultimately falls on the helm of those currently in charge. Whether they made the initial mess or not is not important, they have done nothing to remedy, and have doubled down. Danuser and co have given many Shadowlands interviews and have done fuck all to provide additional context or development. You can't say with any certainty that you know the inner machinations of Blizzard's storyboarding and design so providing a timeline of events is little more than an assumption. You can apportion out blame between individuals if you like but at the end of the day Danuser is still at fault

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's doubtful that this is even 100% the case. Afrasiabi, senior creative director for World of Warcraft, was fired was fired in June of 2020. Production on SL was well underway in 2019. Among the very first things established in the infrastructure of an expansion is character arcs and story beats which would be earlier than general production. This is so that the cinematic and cut scene teams can get on with their work as well as the quest writing team. The timeline does not support that SL was Danuser's baby in any way. I'm not trying to whitewash Danuser here; just pointing out that Blizzard's leadtimes lead to a lot of stuff being settled very early on, usually before serious production starts. The writing team is indeed a team and their output will be the output of a committee and watered down due to that. Even the writing teaw is following an outline created by someone. That someone would seem to be the Creative Director for World of Warcraft (Afrasiabi). It's silly to imagine that given the history there that Afrasiabi wasn't the major drive behind the story of SL.
    it can’t be pointed often enough at exactly these facts.

    like i often mentioned, i am DEFINETELY not a fan of Danuser. but this or his person himself COMPLETELY doesnt matter here. its not about Pro-Danuser or not. its about „what happened“. not for anything (like whitewashing Danuser) other, than the simple truth. just for the sake of „what happened“.

    Danuser completely asside, …. emotionless, rational, objective viewed, the real question is: When was SL overall arc, storyline and characters developed?

    because EXACTLY thats the point, as @MoanaLisa mentioned. regardless what this means. but WHEN exactly was SL storyline created? because that „when“ DIRECTLY leads us to the „who“. WHO was in charge of it, at WHEN shadowlands story was started/developed.

    and here @MoanaLisa brings up a rather nailed point: A creators/designers team, like at Blizz, HAVE TO know what the overall style/arc/story/picture is, all their (world)design should catch.

    me, as a software developer, talked a few years ago with some creative design colleagues and asked them why they must know the „direction“ or the overall arc/story so early. i asked them: „why cant we just tell you a theme, a vision of how or what we circa wanna do and you design for that theme?“ and they said: „as designer you need to get a rather deep feeling for whats really going on, to catch that feelings and do a good design. its not enough to just know the theme.“.

    that said: in my experience, @MoanaLisa is totally correct and the designers (the ppl that start very very early in a new xpac) need to have some relatively clear story direction, rather early. this is a keypoint here.

    because if so, it means:

    SL was developed somewhere between 08/2018 (BfA release) and 11/2020 (SL release) or earlier. and when we assume here, that SL story for the designers must be somewhat fixated early (at least in a general direction, what story SL should tell), that would been happened somewhere between 02/2018 - 05/2019 (at latest, but i dont think they start the next xpac development first after 9 months into the actual xpac).

    and this has A LOT of meaning here, for „WHO was in charge“.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    Didn't Danuser write Shadowlands? The story isn't too bad, there just isn't enough story to play. For example, there's so little story in the questline post leveling, that it gets timegated.
    tbh, the longer you look at rational timelines and known facts, the lesser the chances are that Danuser „wrote“ Shadowlands. imo.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-01-27 at 11:29 PM.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Agreed -- the Rule of Cool can be used for both good and bad. Arthas' purging of Stratholme was likely an invocation of the same principle, they just did a much better job patching it together and making a cohesive story from it.
    The difference between Metzen and Afrasiabi and pals is that Metzen knew when to stop before overall lore fucking breaks. Metzen was the guy that had given us Draenei with spaceships, arguably shifting warcraft away from fantasy setting and some people are sore about that still. Now compare that to Afrasiabi with multiple legions that had to be patched with shit like "oh, actually there's just one main universe that we should care about, don't mind".
    From 6.3 onwards it just a shitstorm with good ideas scattered inbetween.

    As for "sabotage" i don't really think he "sabotaged" anything on purpouse. Saying so is to give Alex too much credit. As a CD de did however drive wow lore into a brick wall and nobody on the writing team has aparently have enough balls or talent to recover anything.
    Last edited by Necromind; 2022-01-28 at 12:17 AM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And why afrasiabi would make her a villain to redeem her in shadowlands?
    Happens all the time in story telling. Someone prolly told Alex, "everyone loves character arcs" or some such.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

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