Do you think Shadowlands was better or worse for the Warcraft lore as a whole?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

No expansion did as much damage to Warcraft plot and lore than Shadowlands, and this by far.

By trying to bring everything back from Warcraft 3 to the Jailer and the Shadowlands and with his terrible storytelling, Danuser did unimaginable damage to the franchise.

[Khaza-R]

Actually, I think most Warcraft fans even on Twitter are repulsed by the state of the story and company right now. I mean, i heard that Christie Golden was even threatened there by someone with strong feelings for Sylvanas (I'm not sure whether they were her fans or haters).

Doesn't that poor women get threaten every time she releases a new book. Surprised she doesn't find a new source material to go write for at this point.

[Skytotem]

I'm no fan of Golden or her writing but nobody should be directing actual hate or vitriol towards an author or anybody working on the game/story.

[Soon-TM]

I'm not sure whether they were her fans or haters.

Tbh Danuser and his cronies managed to upset both groups. Quite an achievement, if you ask me

[geco]

Actually, I think most Warcraft fans even on Twitter are repulsed by the state of the story and company right now. I mean, i heard that Christie Golden was even threatened there by someone with strong feelings for Sylvanas (I'm not sure whether they were her fans or haters).

both of them. At least in teldrassil we told him about everything on both sides XD. Until Mezzan said to stop.

PS: I was wrong. She deserved it but i was wrong.

[NED funded]

This is a rhetorical question right?

It was obviously negative, as it asspulled Bob the Janitor into existence. He is apparently responsible for all the events that happened since at least the Human campaign of WC3 (the creation of the Plague is directly attributed to him by Bolvar Fordragon. So you thought Ner'zhul/Arthas were responsible for the Scourging of Lordaeron? Nope, it was the Janitor actually). It also has the negative of white-washing Suevanas Windrunner, the Forsaken, and the entire Horde for actual genocide (twice).

So this expansion has no problem white-washing Sylvanas and all the Forsaken because "oh they had their souls stolen!!!! poor guys!!!", but God forbid the Alliance kills like 10 people at Camp Taurajo or Jaina kills a bunch of elves

All in all this is just another Horde-biased expansion, with the added "Bonus" that it retconned the "behind the scenes" events of everything since WC3.

This but without the last part

Like I the worldbuilding was great but like the actual story beijg told??



Like they take away the agency of so many characters and the payoff isnt good. Blizzard should stop messing with wc3 frozen throne story cuz everytime they do its for the worse

Also the whole Sylvanas redemption was a wtf moment for me. Like at least have her be a villain to the end or make it so that the moment she acknowledges that she did was messed up have like more ooomph

[Varodoc]

This but without the last part

Like I the worldbuilding was great but like the actual story beijg told??



Like they take away the agency of so many characters and the payoff isnt good. Blizzard should stop messing with wc3 frozen throne story cuz everytime they do its for the worse

Also the whole Sylvanas redemption was a wtf moment for me. Like at least have her be a villain to the end or make it so that the moment she acknowledges that she did was messed up have like more ooomph

Why not include the last part?

Do you disagree that this expansion exists just to white-wash Sylvanas and the Forsaken (who can now blame all their crimes on Janitor)?

[EyelessCrow]

Saying Shadowlands is worse for the lore is like saying pouring acid on your face is bad for your skin.

Shadowlands was terrible for the lore and took it out back and shot it. I have absolutely ZERO interest in Warcraft anymore, the carnival attraction that is Blizzard is far more fun to watch than any of their IPs are at this point.

[Aresk]

Why not include the last part?

Do you disagree that this expansion exists just to white-wash Sylvanas and the Forsaken (who can now blame all their crimes on Janitor)?

How does an expansion that condemns the character white-wash them? She's literally arrested, sentenced, and punished. That is as far from white-washing as one can get. As far as the rest of the Horde goes, there's really not much there for them; there are some individual stories with Draka and Thrall, but beyond that, the Alliance and Horde are essentially non-entities in this expansion.

[Varodoc]

How does an expansion that condemns the character white-wash them? She's literally arrested, sentenced, and punished. That is as far from white-washing as one can get. As far as the rest of the Horde goes, there's really not much there for them; there are some individual stories with Draka and Thrall, but beyond that, the Alliance and Horde are essentially non-entities in this expansion.

Did Edwin VanCleef, Fandral Staghelm, or Archbishop Benedictus get that special treatment from Blizzard? No? Thought so.

[geco]

How does an expansion that condemns the character white-wash them? She's literally arrested, sentenced, and punished. That is as far from white-washing as one can get. As far as the rest of the Horde goes, there's really not much there for them; there are some individual stories with Draka and Thrall, but beyond that, the Alliance and Horde are essentially non-entities in this expansion.

Think about this. The expansion was about killing her.
And we're sending her on a honeymoon after having to go through therapy for her.

I feel like the plan was to whitewash her but every attempt Blizzard made was badly received so they had to change their plans.

Things that make me suspect that
* The jailer was the bad guy. but in the end it doesn't matter.
* It's Elune's fault and Tyrande chose to leave the revenge. One patch later Tyrande chooses revenge again.
* We need Sylvanas to save Anduin. In the end it didn't help at all.
* We need Sylvanas to beat the Jailer. In the end it didn't help either.

It's like they were going to tell a story where she saved us and she was the good one. But I will change my mind in the last patch.

[NED funded]

Why not include the last part?

Do you disagree that this expansion exists just to white-wash Sylvanas and the Forsaken (who can now blame all their crimes on Janitor)?

I dont think it was a horde bias expansion

[Aresk]

Did Edwin VanCleef, Fandral Staghelm, or Archbishop Benedictus get that special treatment from Blizzard? No? Thought so.

I don't understand what argument you're making here. What special treatment?

- - - Updated - - -

Think about this. The expansion was about killing her.
And we're sending her on a honeymoon after having to go through therapy for her.

I feel like the plan was to whitewash her but every attempt Blizzard made was badly received so they had to change their plans.

Things that make me suspect that
* The jailer was the bad guy. but in the end it doesn't matter.
* It's Elune's fault and Tyrande chose to leave the revenge. One patch later Tyrande chooses revenge again.
* We need Sylvanas to save Anduin. In the end it didn't help at all.
* We need Sylvanas to beat the Jailer. In the end it didn't help either.

It's like they were going to tell a story where she saved us and she was the good one. But I will change my mind in the last patch.

I don't get that impression at all. The Jailer was the "bad guy" but that didn't lessen Sylvanas' complicity with him. Elune and Tyrande's exchange (at least the way I interrupted it) was not about Sylvanas specifically about the danger in revenge versus healing. While Sylvanas did help us, that didn't make her previous actions any less wrong, and no one (including herself) seems to be trying to downplay what she has done.

[geco]

First of all it has to do with what each person reads.
But I see it that way.

I don't get that impression at all. The Jailer was the "bad guy" but that didn't lessen Sylvanas' complicity with him.

I see it as a great attempt at "I wasn't, it's that he manipulated/divided my soul"

Elune and Tyrande's exchange (at least the way I interrupted it) was not about Sylvanas specifically about the danger in revenge versus healing.

Conveniently saving Sylvanas in the process.
And by the way, they don't show us anything about "Healing" they only mention it to have a reason for Tyrande not to kill Sylvanas.

While Sylvanas did help us, that didn't make her previous actions any less wrong, and no one (including herself) seems to be trying to downplay what she has done.

Did it really help us? I'm lost on this detail. But do I really contribute something? Or does she just say "can you help us" and then she's just another archer?

[OrangeJuice]

I have no fucking idea what the story is. I got hooked on WoW because I liked the old fantasy theme, but once spaceships and timetravel got involved I checked out.

[Aresk]

First of all it has to do with what each person reads.
But I see it that way.

That's fair. Your interpretation is valid. I just see it differently.

I see it as a great attempt at "I wasn't, it's that he manipulated/divided my soul"

Sylvanas herself has to come to terms with the fact she did those things. It wasn't a way to deliver a cop out. They were very explicit that this did not excuse her actions.

Conveniently saving Sylvanas in the process.
And by the way, they don't show us anything about "Healing" they only mention it to have a reason for Tyrande not to kill Sylvanas.

I don't recall Sylvanas explicitly coming up. It was a choice between ending your life to get revenge or saving your life. The fact Tyrande is still alive is evidence of the healing, as the power was literally killing her. I also hold out hope that we'll see more come of that decision, given that it's still relatively recent and renewal can take a while.

Did it really help us? I'm lost on this detail. But do I really contribute something? Or does she just say "can you help us" and then she's just another archer?

She helped make the Crown of Wills. Beyond that, I don't think she offered particular aid, but I'm still at Anduin in terms of raid progression, so I haven't seen the last three fights.

[Varodoc]

I don't understand what argument you're making here. What special treatment?

Since I can only imagine that you main Horde, I'm confident you haven't noticed the bias. The Alliance villains are put down immediately and no one ever bothers to find another solution, while the Horde villains (Sylvanas, Garrosh, Grommash...) are always spared at the last second because "they don't deserve to just be put down".

No one ever bothered to put VanCleef or Benedictus under trial. Because Blizzard is biased towards the Horde.

[geco]

I respect your idea highlighted two things.

I don't recall Sylvanas explicitly coming up. It was a choice between ending your life to get revenge or saving your life. The fact Tyrande is still alive is evidence of the healing, as the power was literally killing her. I also hold out hope that we'll see more come of that decision, given that it's still relatively recent and renewal can take a while.

In BFA that risk did not exist. In more in the same SL there is no such danger. It was just something put in to have an excuse so she can't get revenge.

What's more, Elune takes away his powers just enough so that she doesn't kill Sylvanas but not enough so that Tyrande doesn't kill himself.

She helped make the Crown of Wills. Beyond that, I don't think she offered particular aid, but I'm still at Anduin in terms of raid progression, so I haven't seen the last three fights.

This is 100% theory. But I think originally Sylvana was going to be really useful and the "hero" as the meme says. But in the end they realized that no one could stand that pj anymore (the misspelled Sylvanas they have)

[Eggroll]

Hmm, let's see.

1. The THIRD consecutive xpac headlining the same character? We might as well call this game "World of SylvanasCraft" at this point.

2. Devs are incapable of telling several stories at once so there's something for everyone, not just the Sylvanas fans

3. If you read Golden's twitter you get the impression the games' lore has turned into some kind of therapy session - how is that fun?

4. Throwing away long built up villains like Azshara and N'zoth in an underwhelming fashion - I know I'm not the only one getting the impression the current lore team wants to wipe out everything that previous writers have created so they can just make THEIR OWN mark without any regard for the world or the fans kinda like dogs marking their territory. Petty. If they were smart, they would use the wealth of villains and world to build upon and give themselves ample time to create new stuff. But no, they just want to see the world burn for their vanity's sake.

5. Still annoyed that they didn't even bother to put Malfurion, a faction leader anywhere in the current game. He's the leader of the night elves and afaik head of the Cenarion Circle but he's not standing around anywhere to just represent his faction. He doesn't even need to have story - just be there like all the other faction leaders in Gnomeregan, Ironforge, Exodar... It just shows their negligence and disinterest in the world and everything that doesn't revolve around Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

I dont think it was a horde bias expansion

It was a Sylvanas bias expansion. Last xpac was Horde bias. Just look at all the expensive cinematics they created for the butcher of Ashenvale while at the same time downgrading Tyrande's model.

[Verdugo]

It was a Sylvanas bias expansion. Last xpac was Horde bias. Just look at all the expensive cinematics they created for the butcher of Ashenvale while at the same time downgrading Tyrande's model.

Do you honestly believe that Saurfang had any other role than to shill for Anduin?