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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It wasn't because of cataclysm. Heirlooms were the main cause but it still could happen that you would be doing green quests in a zone. It is silly to dismiss it as desperation to see zones, or not caring when we are talking about things that make an RPG an RPG, right? Or does story no longer matter to an RPG just because it doesn't fit your viewpoint?
    Heirlooms were a huge contributor, but they don't give an experience bonus anymore, so by that logic, the problem would've gone away after that. Of course then scaling was already in place. I guess we can take scaling away then, because the heirloom problem has been fixed.

    In reality, the main problem was the reduction of experience needed and the restructuring of how zones work. Zones didn't always have a clear beginning and an end. You weren't expected to necessarily do all the quests there, and it wasn't as linear. Sure story is important, but there's different kinds of stories. You'd pick and choose quests how it made sense to you. There was no overarching story. More like many smaller ones. And you'd often go to a place like Stranglethorn for 2 levels, then go somewhere else and come back later for another 2 levels, sometimes gathering up dungeon quests and then doing a dungeon. Dungeons have a story, too, you know. You wouldn't outlevel much, and if you did get some green or grey quests, you'd just drop'em. There was no reason to do them if they gave low experience. Because the whole point of doing quests was to gain experience. Not to see some overarching, mediocre, linear story.
    Last edited by Lana Alan; 2022-04-06 at 09:34 PM.

  2. #622
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    You wouldn't outlevel much, and if you did get some green or grey quests, you'd just drop'em. There was no reason to do them if they gave low experience. Because the whole point of doing quests was to gain experience. Not to see some overarching, mediocre, linear story. .
    You perfectly point out the problem that was fixed but dismiss it because for someone reason you don't think story is core to an RPG. Strange for a person that started with talking about the point of an RPG. Being able to stay in an expansion instead of leveling past after 1 or 2 zones is superior to the old method.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-04-06 at 10:35 PM.
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  3. #623
    Guys this leak is so obviously fake, all he got right was the name of the expansion, the addition of dark rangers into the game, Quel'thalas and Lordaeron being updated, the original location of Dalaran having an updated skybox for some reason, and the main villain of this expansion being a Hydra while hearthstone coincidentally has a year of the Hydra.

  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbone1337 View Post
    Guys this leak is so obviously fake, all he got right was the name of the expansion, the addition of dark rangers into the game, Quel'thalas and Lordaeron being updated, the original location of Dalaran having an updated skybox for some reason, and the main villain of this expansion being a Hydra while hearthstone coincidentally has a year of the Hydra.
    Very true points you made. 100% false leak.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You perfectly point out the problem that was fixed but dismiss it because for someone reason you don't think story is core to an RPG. Strange for a person that started with talking about the point of an RPG. Being able to stay in an expansion instead of leveling past after 1 or 2 zones is superior to the old method.
    I do think story is important in RPGs, I even said so in the post you quoted, you just cut that bit out, so don't strawman me. I just think MMOs can't do certain stories that well, and I don't like the linear overarching stories we've gotten since Cataclysm.

    I think Classic, TBC and WotLK did questing and storytelling through quests best. Did you ever feel like you couldn't finish all the stuff in Hellfire Peninsula, when TBC was current content? Did you ever outlevel anything there? I mean you had to eventually skip certain zones, especially in WotLK, but what I did is I would simply play through the zones I left out on another character. But there was never a problem with doing all the quests in Howling Fjord before moving on. That was absolutely possible. And that's the kind of system I wish we still had. We never needed scaling back then, and the game was better overall.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    I do think story is important in RPGs, I even said so in the post you quoted, you just cut that bit out, so don't strawman me. I just think MMOs can't do certain stories that well, and I don't like the linear overarching stories we've gotten since Cataclysm.

    I think Classic, TBC and WotLK did questing and storytelling through quests best. Did you ever feel like you couldn't finish all the stuff in Hellfire Peninsula, when TBC was current content? Did you ever outlevel anything there? I mean you had to eventually skip certain zones, especially in WotLK, but what I did is I would simply play through the zones I left out on another character. But there was never a problem with doing all the quests in Howling Fjord before moving on. That was absolutely possible. And that's the kind of system I wish we still had. We never needed scaling back then, and the game was better overall.
    Uhhhhh no this just seems like nostalgia, story in questing used to be pretty low, especially in vanilla and TBC. Wrath is when it picked up.
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  7. #627
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    I mean you had to eventually skip certain zones, especially in WotLK, but what I did is I would simply play through the zones I left out on another character.
    So you ask if a problem exists and then answer that it did exist. Of course it was always possible to do every quest in the zone before moving on but it still punished you because they would eventually start turning green and it would just cause you to out level the next zone faster.
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  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you ask if a problem exists and then answer that it did exist. Of course it was always possible to do every quest in the zone before moving on but it still punished you because they would eventually start turning green and it would just cause you to out level the next zone faster.
    Green is fine. Grey is a problem. But green isn't. It just gives you a little bit less experience. If you really care about seeing the story, and doing the entirety of the zone before moving on, then I don't see why doing green quests would bother you.

    The alternative is to do it like it was in Classic, where you pretty much have to do all quests you can find, because there's a shortage of quests, and you eventually need to grind mobs or dungeons to even bridge the gap. Which I would be fine with, too.

  9. #629
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    Green is fine. Grey is a problem. But green isn't. It just gives you a little bit less experience.
    Right, it gives you less of a reward for sticking with the story and not moving on early. It is also amazing how you point out that the old way had a problem. So before scaling you either had to few quests or to many quests. You keep making the case for why scaling was a good addition to the game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right, it gives you less of a reward for sticking with the story and not moving on early.
    If you wanna do all zones, you're gonna hit max level before you're done with all of them anyway. I don't get what the issue here is now.

    My main problem with scaling is that it makes leveling up pointless to begin with. Why even level if you have the technology to scale things.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is also amazing how you point out that the old way had a problem.
    I don't see where I've done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So before scaling you either had to few quests or to many quests. You keep making the case for why scaling was a good addition to the game.
    No, there is no too few quests or too many quests. If you've done all the quests, go kill mobs and do dungeons.
    If you hit max level before you've done all the quests, either do them at max level or do them while leveling up an alt.

    Both ways of designing the game are fine. That's why I think Classic, TBC and Wrath were all ok, with Classic being my favorite.

    When I did Northrend for the first time on my Druid, I did Howling Fjord, Dragonblight, Grizzly Hills, Zul'drak and then Icecrown.
    So when I leveled my Warlock, I instead did Borean Tundra, Sholazaar Basin and Storm Peaks.

    That was some of the best time, that I had with the game, and that was without scaling.

    Scaling makes everything feel the same. You used to have quests with different difficulties, so you could personally decide what quests you wanted to do. Do I wanna tackle the orange one, or play it safe and do the green ones? With scaling that question never comes up, because the answer is always, whatever quests I have right now. Whatever quests are next in my linear questing campaign. That way every time you play it feels the same. It never feels like you are crafting your journey. This is what leads to that on rails feeling we've had since Cataclysm.

    Mobs need to remain static, so that when you level up you can see the difference. If that means sometimes quests will turn green or grey, that is ok. That's part of playing a game. Discard those quests. You don't need to do them. It's not required of you to do them, because there is no linear campaign, that is mandatory.

  11. #631
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    My main problem with scaling is that it makes leveling up pointless to begin with. Why even level if you have the technology to scale things.
    Leveling has always been pointless. It has just been a way to gate players and set some content as max level only. Quests of different difficulties going away has nothing to do with scaling. Blizzard purposefully designed there to be fewer elite quests and fewer quests that require a group because it sucked getting stuck on those when no one was around to group with you.

    Why is it different that you had mobs scale when going to a new zone versus them just staying that same level of difference in the current zone? We again circle back to perception being the main thing here. It was the perception of them being weaker even though you moved to new zones where you became weaker compared to the quests/npcs of that zone. To now where you both scale at the same level with power slightly in favor of the player.

    Discard those quests. You don't need to do them. It's not required of you to do them
    Of course it isn't required to do them but then you discard a core part of what makes an RPG and RPG. The story.
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  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Leveling has always been pointless. It has just been a way to gate players and set some content as max level only.
    I thought you cared so much about the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Of course it isn't required to do them but then you discard a core part of what makes an RPG and RPG. The story.
    Then do them.

  13. #633
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    I thought you cared so much about the story.
    Does story stop at max level? Levels has nothing to do with caring about the story. Again of course you can do quests regardless of reward. The whole point of scaling is so you get don't get little to no reward while seeing the entire quest-chain and story for the zone. Why do I need to keep repeating things here? This is why the scaling is a superior when compared to the old system. No need to sacrifice.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Does story stop at max level? Levels has nothing to do with caring about the story.
    Except that when you level up, you engage with the story. I don't really get what point you're trying to make anymore. You say you want to do all the quests, and you hate it when they turn green or grey, because you want to see the story. Ok, do them. Even without level scaling, I don't see the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again of course you can do quests regardless of reward. The whole point of scaling is so you get don't get little to no reward while seeing the entire quest-chain and story for the zone.
    In Classic, you can easily do all of the quests in a zone without them turning grey, and them turning green isn't that big of a deal. A lot of players, depending on what class they play, actually only target green quests, because it's better than dying all the time to yellow and orange quests. Part of the point of the game is to manage your quests and decide what to do when. That is completely eliminated with level scaling, because you always just do whatever quests are next in your linear questline. The questing system of 2004 was deeper, more meaningful and more engaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Why do I need to keep repeating things here?
    Yeah, why are you here repeating yourself, instead of just playing through your precious stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    This is why the scaling is a superior when compared to the old system. No need to sacrifice.
    Scaling is shit, it made the game shit, and every iteration of the game, that didn't have scaling, was superior to the current game.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    Except that when you level up, you engage with the story. I don't really get what point you're trying to make anymore. You say you want to do all the quests, and you hate it when they turn green or grey, because you want to see the story. Ok, do them. Even without level scaling, I don't see the problem.


    In Classic, you can easily do all of the quests in a zone without them turning grey, and them turning green isn't that big of a deal. A lot of players, depending on what class they play, actually only target green quests, because it's better than dying all the time to yellow and orange quests.


    Yeah, why are you here repeating yourself, instead of just playing through your precious stories.


    Scaling is shit, it made the game shit, and every iteration of the game, that didn't have scaling, was superior to the current game.
    Why are you two not taking this to DMs?

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Why are you two not taking this to DMs?
    I do what I want.

    Go ahead and discuss your fake leak.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Why are you two not taking this to DMs?
    they like being watched

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    I do what I want.

    Go ahead and discuss your fake leak.
    Didn't know there were people who were not only self-aware that they were being obnoxious but that they were proud to be so.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Alan View Post
    That was never a problem back in Classic. It's a problem of the Cataclysm revamp. They screwed up the entire leveling and questing experience with it. Scaling makes it worse. And if you really so desperately wanna see the entirety of a zone, you can easily do that if you avoid dungeons. But you probably don't even care cause you've seen it all tons of times over the years. And it's not that good anyway.
    I would say it was a combination of the following

    1. Constant nerfs for required XP's to level.
    2. Heirlooms (gonna include the old xp boost guild perk in this too)
    3. Streamlined quest progression from the Cata revamp.

    Even if you removed Heirlooms, you would still run into the same problem of overleveling a zone. Regardless if you did dungeons or not. That happened to me when I leveled up alts prior to old zones being scaled to your level (up to a certain point) that came with BFA.
    Last edited by Volardelis; 2022-04-07 at 02:04 AM.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Didn't know there were people who were not only self-aware that they were being obnoxious but that they were proud to be so.
    You'll see one of 'em if you look in the mirror.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Volardelis View Post
    I would say it was a combination of the following

    1. Constant nerfs for required XP's to level.
    2. Heirlooms (gonna include the old xp boost guild perk in this too)
    3. Streamlined quest progression from the Cata revamp.

    Even if you removed Heirlooms, you would still run into the same problem of overleveling a zone. Regardless if you did dungeons or not. That happened to me when I leveled up alts prior to old zones being scaled to your level (up to a certain point) that came with BFA.
    Without heirlooms, it was ok. If you did no dungeons and used no heirlooms, you didn't outlevel a zone, and if that was the case, that was a matter of them not having tuned it right. But it just wasn't the case. Even if you used heirlooms it wasn't that bad. It only got bad when you started to also do dungeons.

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