Seals > Holy Power

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I agree, they've heavily nerfed good abilities to make the newer ones hit harder. And the ramp up time is annoying, especially when compared to the burst from a lucky twist.

With Dragonflight's announced talent changes, I'm now praying that they allow players to choose between HolyPower and Seals in the Class tree. Allow players to choose what mechanic they like more. If you choose seals, you unlock seals that you can combo via twisting. If you choose HoPo, you unlock the HoPo spenders. Or maybe the spenders exist without HoPo, but they cost a lot of mana, which must be managed via seals.

I'm really interested to see what the new trees look like. I am hoping we can modify Divine Storm to either project out (like the leggo effect) or provide a stun on a longer CD (like Uther's DS in HotS).

Consecrate will probably be modifiable to travel with the player, provide healing, or do more output on a longer CD (like the venthyr aoe).

Judgements could also get some mods, maybe baked-in seal effects (because the likelihood of seals returning is pretty low tbh).

What are other people are hoping for or predicting in the new trees?

I think there's a 0% chance that happens. Seals are dead. (Personally, I'm grateful. No idea why people remember them fondly!).

Main thing I want to see is useful utility so there's actually a reason to bring a ret paladin to something.
-Blessing of Might as battleshout, maybe Blessing of Wisdom as Intellect (though I would prefer if they just removed these buffs altogether)
-Instant cast repentance that doesn't generate combat (like imprison) so you can use it as a skip. Making it a soothe would also be incredible for raging weeks.
-Integrate some of the cooler PvP talents somehow
-talent WoG into a cleaving heal like BFA so it's actually useful outside of PvP
-Make shield of vengeance not a complete joke
-Talent for wake to let it have a proc to auto delete demons and undead again

I don't know, personally I think the spec plays well but doesn't really have a place in the game unless it happens to be overtuned. Other paladins bring auras and Holy is nearly always meta. Ret is a "healing hybrid" that does almost no healing. Classes like DH and DK have far better self-healing and survival tools, and ret survivability outside of bubble is atrocious.

[Woggmer]

Judgements could also get some mods, maybe baked-in seal effects (because the likelihood of seals returning is pretty low tbh).

What are other people are hoping for or predicting in the new trees?

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if they returned the older version of Judgements where there was three different types used for different situations. They could lock them behind the talent trees or as modifiers. They could even borrow ideas from the Night Fae Paladin ability with it but for three (or four) different judgements to use from, and it only effects the Paladin.

I'm hoping for some older abilities to make a return perhaps... but knowing how this new talent tree is designed, would mean that 65% of the specs in the game will probably get a overhaul while the 35% will either get old abilities or a new tool to go with their kits that are (somewhat) the same as they were in Shadowlands.

And... also... just for the heck of it. Have a branching path where Outlaw rogues could either be a gunslinger type of rogue and have more builds that boost their pistols making them a bit more of a mid-range fighter (like Evokers) or having another path that makes them play more like the original Combat rogues pre-Outlaw redesign.

[Gestopft]

Ret is a "healing hybrid" that does almost no healing.

I think Ret should get a healing CD. Just use the same healing mechanic as Avenging Crusader from Holy, and boom. Group gets an extra healing CD, and it doesn't come a the cost of the most significant damage ability the way WoG does.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

You know what I forget is the return of the Retribution buff. Ret aura is absolutely terrible by comparison. It may seem minor, but that buff gave ret a place in progression raiding and was thematically cool.

[Celebhil]

seals, blessings and auras sound cool on "paper", the idea of them seem great, but the problem with the op and many other users here blinded with rosetinted shades is in practice these were crap, and they stood in place for actual spells and abilities; the bottom line is we had a bunch of passive crap that made us healbots, or dependant on auto attack gimmicks for damage, as ret, and useless tanks(at least in classic). TBC complicated the issue further as it became apparent ilvl didnt scale with our abilities well, as such the newer scaling traits we needed simultaneously to perform well were spread too thin for the sake of "balance", seal of command couldnt benefit great from both spell power AND high hitting weapons; like how the shockadin build yielded wanky outcomes, i understand the reluctance of suppressing spell power on plate items.

i say no to your ideas, bringing back seals and judgements as they had been alone, replacing holy power/spending abilities will not work, nor will it be fun. You're dreaming.

if however you liked the idea of seal twisting; i dont blame you, but blizzard failed to make it fun, meaningful and balanced. FOR EXAMPLE, judgement of the crusader helped boost damage, and seal of the crusader seemed cool if that + judgement of wisdom or light meant a high attack speed could meaningfully boost your own health replenishment and mana supply...great, but the math was complicated at best, and just didnt work; seal twisting more often or not was a waste of mana. Slap ONE debuff and stick with it and ONE seal for 30seconds. TBC changes didn't help much and the twisting talent on a later expansion....i think CATA was a tiny carrot met with a sharp stick if you tried to bother with it.

If you can suggest a simpler system to supplement holy power however, one which the meager crusader strike can be tied to as the means to apply it, passive effects that get enhanced by applications of crusader strike, and or judgement triggeres additional benefits besides a damage boost, that maybe a better direction to go rather than walking backwards and tripping all over yourself

[roboscorcher]

if however you liked the idea of seal twisting; i dont blame you, but blizzard failed to make it fun, meaningful and balanced. FOR EXAMPLE, judgement of the crusader helped boost damage, and seal of the crusader seemed cool if that + judgement of wisdom or light meant a high attack speed could meaningfully boost your own health replenishment and mana supply...great, but the math was complicated at best, and just didnt work; seal twisting more often or not was a waste of mana. Slap ONE debuff and stick with it and ONE seal for 30seconds. TBC changes didn't help much and the twisting talent on a later expansion....i think CATA was a tiny carrot met with a sharp stick if you tried to bother with it.

I am currently playing TBC ret and twisting IS great. Mana issues go away with a proper comp and another paladin applying wisdom to the boss. With the right weakauras, it's very easy to track (just like twisting) and refreshing judgements guarantees Ret a raid spot. There are still problems playing the spec single-player, but the right talent changes could fix that.

I'm hoping that the UI guys add swingtimer UI to the base game. I think swing-based gameplay is pretty fun, it is really fun to twist with haste procs going off like DST.

[Xaviaton]

I'm hoping that the UI guys add swingtimer UI to the base game. I think swing-based gameplay is pretty fun, it is really fun to twist with haste procs going off like DST.

I honestly struggle to see how a swing-based gameplay could work in modern WoW. Having tried BM hunter and ret pala in TBC as well as enh shaman and ret pala in classic, I think the game is simply too fast paced and mobile at the moment for swing timer min-maxing to be a viable style of play to reintroduce to the game, particularly in PvP. I enjoy(ed) these styles in place they exist(ed) but think they would be way too clunky in retail.

Specifically in terms of how holy power functions compared to seals and judgements, I think one of the more enjoyable parts of ret pala is the possibility to use judgements and blade as a method of charging up that one big hit from a distance, before sealing the deal once you arrive in melee. In terms of satisfaction, I personally much prefer to sync up damage boosts with a TV, DT, TV, WoA, TV combo. It gives the same amount of mega burst as your mentioned crit combo but I am completely in control for when I can execute it, rather than just waiting for the magic moment. This on its own is, to me, preferable to the RNG (though I think we might have different opinions here) but I find it even more superior in the modern game given the increased frequency of situations where you much more often have to disengage from melee range. To be able to actually ensure that you get your mega burst in this window, rather than hoping that the RNG is with you in that moment, just straight up improves the experience to me.

[roboscorcher]

I honestly struggle to see how a swing-based gameplay could work in modern WoW. Having tried BM hunter and ret pala in TBC as well as enh shaman and ret pala in classic, I think the game is simply too fast paced and mobile at the moment for swing timer min-maxing to be a viable style of play to reintroduce to the game, particularly in PvP. I enjoy(ed) these styles in place they exist(ed) but think they would be way too clunky in retail.

That's a fair point. I think swingtimer mechanics could work again but it would likely require a major rework. Just like bringing back talent trees, the support has to be there. And maybe the system truly is incompatable with mythic retail, but it's worth the devs trying IMO. It would be cool to have weaponspeed matter again, and maybe blacksmiths can modify weapon speeds for specs that need them lowered or raised.

As for retail burst, I played Venthyr in 9.0 so I was missing out on initial burst. Maybe that's why I hated the spec, and hopefully that will change in DF. Either way, I think the HoPo spenders are bloat abilities, and Judgement and CS should be the heavy hitters. I would also argue that (on average) Rets would be better with fewer buttons in the rotation, as less buttons means more accessibility for utility buttons. I know I am much better at using them in TBC than I am in retail.

[Neuroticaine]

Wait, was this when Judgement still consumed the seal? Because that was like the worst class mechanic in WoW's history imo (or at least tied with having to drop a bunch of totems every single pull).

I'm not sure I'd necessarily call it the worst, but it's high up there.

Hunters using mana and having to gimp their damage for periods of time using Aspect of the Viper is ranks as the worst mechanic for me. Oh, and Shadow Priests being reliant on RNG proccing 3 Shadow Orbs at the start of a pull before they could deal any damage.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I think classic and retail are just different games. Swing-timer and buff maintenance gameplay feels like a relic of the past (and personally, thank god).

The button comment is extra strange to me, though. Ret doesn't have more buttons than most other specs. It's one of the most straight-forward dps specs in the game, really. (though I agree it definitely doesn't need any more)

Crusader strike obviously does too little damage and has for like 4+ years. I think I had 200 something casts in a dungeon and <300k damage. It's truly pitiful. That said, if you are going to have satisfying big hits like TV, the generators just can't really do much. And while some people aren't fond of spenders doing so much damage, it is a proven method of highlighting the skill gap in terms of maximizing resource generation.

[MrKnubbles]

I think that in Cata, the devs once talked about removing white damage altogether. I think retail still overlooks the potential of auto-attack builds, a new expansion would be a good time to revisit this. We don't need a piano to have a fun, deep rotation.

I believe that was regarding Monks. They considered having Monks with only abilities and combo attacks and no auto-attack.

[Snowfunk]

Seals sucked. Go play Vanilla/TBC if want to deal with that tedious shite.

And fuck whoever wanted to rip our passives, in favor of limited, shitty on the gcd Auras.

[Alanar]

I agree, they've heavily nerfed good abilities to make the newer ones hit harder. And the ramp up time is annoying, especially when compared to the burst from a lucky twist.

With Dragonflight's announced talent changes, I'm now praying that they allow players to choose between HolyPower and Seals in the Class tree. Allow players to choose what mechanic they like more. If you choose seals, you unlock seals that you can combo via twisting. If you choose HoPo, you unlock the HoPo spenders. Or maybe the spenders exist without HoPo, but they cost a lot of mana, which must be managed via seals.

I'm really interested to see what the new trees look like. I am hoping we can modify Divine Storm to either project out (like the leggo effect) or provide a stun on a longer CD (like Uther's DS in HotS).

Consecrate will probably be modifiable to travel with the player, provide healing, or do more output on a longer CD (like the venthyr aoe).

Judgements could also get some mods, maybe baked-in seal effects (because the likelihood of seals returning is pretty low tbh).

What are other people are hoping for or predicting in the new trees?

Yea, honestly I would love for seals to be a thing again. I understand it sounds like a hassle and it sorts was, but also very satisfying when all seals were up and you would feel very powerfull. I had it all macroed down and it was fun for me.

In todays play.. its all about who hits the burst button the fastest, which is super dull imo, but because of that the sealtwisting wouldnt work that well, unless they change that whole burst or gtfo feel. But being able to use it as a resource as a choice between holy power sounds interesting.

Projecting divine storm is cool, but honestly should just be baked in the talent tree.

I would love for some holy jump strike as a gapcloser. Like heroic leap, but cooler and flashier. The horse will be 3 seconds again unless they bake in the talent point of soulbounds, but honestly I would ditch that horse as soon as other options are there.

[roboscorcher]

I would love for some holy jump strike as a gapcloser. Like heroic leap, but cooler and flashier. The horse will be 3 seconds again unless they bake in the talent point of soulbounds, but honestly I would ditch that horse as soon as other options are there.

I think it was Legion beta where the devs said paladins would get a throwing-sword talent that we could then teleport to, like Tyrael in HotS. I don't think it ever made it to a test build. Really wish we get it someday!

Another HotS feature that would be nice is a charging mechanic. Yrel is a paladin hero who charges up her 2handed mace to empower her abilities. She can use the abilities uncharged if needed too. I'd love to see this style for Ret, it's probably the closest thing to swingtimers/tempo-based-rotations we can expect for retail.

Also, they announced that Evokers WILL be using charging mechanics, so it's the perfect time for other classes to get them too!

Edit: Imagine charging Wake for bigger dots, or charging DS to project it forward, or Word of Glory to increase the heal. So many possibilities!

[Absintheminded]

Wait, was this when Judgement still consumed the seal? Because that was like the worst class mechanic in WoW's history imo (or at least tied with having to drop a bunch of totems every single pull).

I haven't played TBC Classic, but that was changed during TBC and should, IMO be the version that's on TBC Classic. Even prior to the pre-Wrath godmode changes, Ret was sick. You had an answer for nearly everything in PVP, and brought very good raid utility with decent damage.

[ipoststuff]

I've been playing paladin since 2005. I've played every expansion as both ret and prot. I hope they never bring seals back.

[Celebhil]

@ Roboscorcher; and there lies the heart of my criticism, and I am saddened you didnt add anything to my constructive suggestions how to implement a seal/judgement system to the current game/ paladin spellbook.

if the paladin doesnt work solo, and it only shines when put in a specific group comp (or in other words its a burden on the group unless everyone else bends over backwards for you)....guess what...its not working. What you are pointing out is the genius of players testing out the more nuanced mechanics of the game via group buffs, stacking specific stats or items with unique effects to try at something to make it work. This is not devs implementing good design; its players overcoming the lack of it. THAT was the problem, holy power i suppose you can say is the latest bandaid to the stack of bandaids Blizz slapped on to address this problem.

The group buffs and auto attack/ weapon swing time gimmicks dont exist the same manner as they did in classic anymore anyway; its wet dream, for it was hard to learn, nearly impossible to master and the only way you could have achieved competatively was getting specific items and/or best in slot items. Thats not good game design. if you can offer a way it can work, by all means, but a mere reversion to the old system does not suffice.

[threads]

nahh. seal twisting isnt that fun and wouldnt work in retail. theres a reason that in wrath they just became set and forget self-buffs.

[PickleballAce]

Canadians have the right idea when it comes to seals.

[shise]

Seals sucked. Go play Vanilla/TBC if want to deal with that tedious shite.

And fuck whoever wanted to rip our passives, in favor of limited, shitty on the gcd Auras.

What is so tedious about it? they are super straight forward.

Plenty of retri palas in BC classic playing, none has a problem with it.

- - - Updated - - -

Seals are the obvious best way, but people are just too lazy to keep up with them.

It is fun, engaging and feels like a paladin, but modern players do not care about how a class feels lore wise, so it doesn´t exist.