Seals > Holy Power

[Ealyssa]

Seals were never a class mechanic, holy power is…

[PenguinChan]

Seals are good, yes. Cataclysm seals especially, as you actively switched between them and used certain ones depending on the situation. Full on AoE? Hit the correct seal. Just a couple? Use the specialized seal for that! Short term single target? Just use the small aoe one, as it'll deal more damage than the DoT seal. Single target? Obviously, the DoT seal. This isn't even getting into how Seal of Blood could've been implemented to augment your other seals, kind of like aura mastery but for ret 'n seals. Force the paladin to sacrifice their life for better DPS, but at the expense of increasingly higher health costs. It's a cooler mechanic than rogues in plate - aka, holy power.

Holy power is a neat mechanic, but unfortunately whoever had the design lead for Paladin really misunderstood that it was a supplemental resource, not a combo point simulator. So now it's a glorified holy combat rogue in plate. You have to use holy power constantly, your entire rotation revolves around the system, and it feels completely restrictive and goes against what Paladin WAS supposed to be, a hybrid / versatile class. If they fix that, Ret will get immensely more enjoyable for what it was originally intended to be.

Druid suffered something similar to this, but they've gotten better over the years to at least have some variety in their other forms. Meanwhile Ret is just... Yeah.

[Gestopft]

not a combo point simulator. So now it's a glorified holy combat rogue in plate.

Combo points: spent all at once; generation based on energy
Holy Power: spent in fixed intervals; generation based on multiple short CD abilities

But you fill up bubbles and then empty them so it's the same, right?

You have to use holy power constantly, your entire rotation revolves around the system, and it feels completely restrictive and goes against what Paladin WAS supposed to be, a hybrid / versatile class.

"Hybrid" has been a nonexistent/meaningless category for HOW many expansions now?

[Reavz]

God no. Seals were atrocious. Judgement consuming your seal so you have to use extra GCDs just to get more than white dmg? Hell no. Seals as an idea are awesome, but the original system was tragic for gameplay.

[sam86]

anything is better than this rogue combo points system that blizz shoved in our throats
seals were more unique aspect, not to mention i loved their visuals too, something that don't exist anymore

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Combo points: spent all at once; generation based on energy
Holy Power: spent in fixed intervals; generation based on multiple short CD abilities

with current mana system for dps do u find difference between energy and mana? mana bar is almost useless for all mana dps classes
and not all rogue abilities use all combo points too, they are more similar than u think
If u want to be accurate holy combo points was superior to rogue combo points (ironic) until they improved rogue combo points, it still doesn't change that rogue started that system and we are mimicking them, seals at least was unique purely paladin system

[cocomen2]

Yeah I think this is true for many other classes as well. The older design being better, that is.

But holly power is a thing to keep Paladins in check from destroying world balance, if they get rid of holy power then its bound to return paladin into no-damage zone.... sweet TBC times "hey pal,Buff me, BUFF ME NOW!".

[ResentfulUK]

Seals from Classic / TBC aren't fun.

[froschhure]

Yes indeed

[Gestopft]

with current mana system for dps do u find difference between energy and mana? mana bar is almost useless for all mana dps classes

Mana bar: useless in terms of DPS (aside from Arcane).
Energy bar: extremely impactful since it determines the pace of rotation.

Of course there is a difference...what even are you trying to get at?

and not all rogue abilities use all combo points too, they are more similar than u think

Name a rogue ability that only spends a fixed amount of combo points instead of all of them.

[sam86]

Name a rogue ability that only spends a fixed amount of combo points instead of all of them.

all of them with a talent they introduced that increase combo points and make u store 2 of them (unless it was removed, last time i played rogue was in legion), exact same way as holy power (ironic)
And still my point was combo point system was rogue first, then blizz gave it to many classes like pally, heck monk current system is also combo point (the old black/white one was way better, at least u feel different playing monk)

[LordVargK]

all of them with a talent they introduced that increase combo points and make u store 2 of them (unless it was removed, last time i played rogue was in legion), exact same way as holy power (ironic)
And still my point was combo point system was rogue first, then blizz gave it to many classes like pally, heck monk current system is also combo point (the old black/white one was way better, at least u feel different playing monk)

Doesn't exist.
There's one that increases the cap to 6, but you still spend all available points.

And Monk, Pala, WL, old SP, Arcane Mage, Enh Shaman are all based around building points but still play nothing like a rogue. Even WW, which uses energy, has an entirely different gameplay concept than a rogue.

[Gestopft]

all of them with a talent they introduced that increase combo points and make u store 2 of them (unless it was removed, last time i played rogue was in legion), exact same way as holy power (ironic)

That was actually the nerfed version of the talent from WoD, but in any case it no longer exists.

And still my point was combo point system was rogue first, then blizz gave it to many classes like pally, heck monk current system is also combo point (the old black/white one was way better, at least u feel different playing monk)

It's really, really easy to make resource systems seem like they're the same if you're only doing a surface level comparison. Lots of rotations are based on building and spending, even some that don't have circles to fill up and empty. The considerations that go into performing the rotations are different, though, which is why the surface similarities break down upon closer analysis.

[Gyldenstierne]

Empowered Seals that were added in 6.0.2 were a good mechanic. It's a shame they were reworked into being rather useless post beta, perhaps a rework of Impowered seals could work, after all we all remember juggling inquisition. Paladins need more holy power dumps.

[Deneios]

That was in wotlk assasination talent i think. You had a chance by combo point to refund combo points when using a finisher.

[Fight4Fun]

Seals basically stances

[Thundering]

The seal system in classic is really fun.

[Thundering]

The seal system is fun much better than holy power.

[Epicawesomestmaximus]

Seals were cool but not the TBC versions. Wotlk pallies felt the best and this build > spend combo point BS thing blizz did to pallies is just completely asinine. But still the most atrocious thing they ever did was remove the OG Divine Storm and Hammer of the Righteous sounds and animations. DS was the whole reason I leveled a pally first in wotlk.

[tomten]

Every time holy power is spent it should do something extra based on the spec.

It already does? It builds free WoG for prot. It builds free flash for ret. And I dont play healer but I know it does smt similar.

[bloodmoth13]

People can complain about holy power being similar to cp all they want but mechanically it is a great resource. Build and spend gameplay is great for giving the player control over when their damage is dealt and lets you play the spec, seals were the spec playing you as you had to do things in specific order.
I liked the concept way back when but that doesn't mean it was good gameplay. Small maintainable buffs frankly suck.

The reason crusader strike felt good comparitively is that it was essentially the only button paladins had outside judgment.
We have more abilities now and templars verdict essentially replaced crusader strike while crusader strike became our filler spell and filled the role of fleshing out the spec. Blizz could swap the names around but it would be pointless, for what it's worth you should be comparing crusader strike to TV.