What are the best ways to make the Alliance more popular and interesting?

[Jackstraw]

"Better"? 0.5% is not "better".

Blizz overbuffed Horde racials and gave them blood elves in BC and it basically swung community to their side, combined with Blizzcon insults towards Alliance, and etc.

The overbuff is apparent in older versions of the game, where the split was more 50/50. As far as PvP goes, no racial will ever be as strong as Every Man for Himself as it existed up until Legion.
The Alliance problem is its community, not its perception.

I think the golden opportunity was in Cataclysm and MOP, Varian should have taken Garrosh`s place and lead the Alliance down the dark path of vengeance against the Horde and Garrosh only managing to halt the Alliance onslaught by demonstrating proper honour on the field and swaying a part of the Alliance leaders to back away from the war.

This event would have given the Alliance the iniative in the conflict and litteraly eliminate the Mery Sue, knight in shining armour do gooder image the Alliance has.

It would have made both factions truely gray with the Alliance point at the first and second wars and the Horde pointing at this forth war.

But Blizzard had to go down the rabbit whole with Horde bad - Alliance good trope.

You can't do much really. The fanbase rejects any iteration of the Alliance not based on Alliance good.
Case in point: the usual Vulpera Eradication squads.

[VladlTutushkin]

The overbuff is apparent in older versions of the game, where the split was more 50/50. As far as PvP goes, no racial will ever be as strong as Every Man for Himself as it existed up until Legion.
The Alliance problem is its community, not its perception.



You can't do much really. The fanbase rejects any iteration of the Alliance not based on Alliance good.
Case in point: the usual Vulpera Eradication squads.

You mistaking oranges for apples... as horde always does.

Vulper Purge Squads were disliked for how FUCKEN DUMB it was. WHY would Alliance waste actual purge on... vulpera?

Horde just genocided an Alliance race and instead of retaliating against actual perpetrators Alliance goes to purge vulpera caravans. Its was ridiculous and clearly only there to try and make a false equivalency.

Alliance players want to hit the Horde "core" like Horde hits Alliance "core" races - night elves, humans and etc. Purge of Forsaken would have been cheered on by whole community, massacre of orcs would be widely celebrated and even giving blood elves an "Arthas flashback" would be approved of.

[BB8]

I say 4 factions, like WC3 would be nice.
We have crossfaction instances anyway.

[sam86]

They made Alliance both weak, military incompetent and dumb at the same time on several occasions to hype the Horde up.

They wont lose their gonads if they do the same once for Alliance.

weak?
alliance roflstomped horde since end of MoP, won both wars in wow era, if winning makes u wake and losing makes u strong, i hope to see alliance 'strong' always
heck our capital is defiled on weekly basis and our ex-warchief turned to loot piniata, any equal in alliance side? And pls don't tell me theramore, because theramore was equal to stonecare at best (mage portals, did they remove them btw?) and was there for tailor master alliance
what conflict did horde win to make alliance weak exactly?

alliance problem comes purely from how top guilds just happened to be horde since classic, even if alliance has better racials since cata+, heck in any tournament you can see how it is purely dominated by alliance races, that's because they are premade and has no achievement/progress attached to them, u won't lose anything if u don't play ur 1502h+ played horde toon in said tournament

I can remember only troll racial be op in Jaina fight in BFA, but that's exception, general alliance both mythic and pvp tournaments dominate it
seriously anyone who think horde have 'better' racials didn't watch a single tournament on wow OFFICIAL youtube channel for over 8 years

[VladlTutushkin]

weak?
alliance roflstomped horde since end of MoP, won both wars in wow era, if winning makes u wake and losing makes u strong, i hope to see alliance 'strong' always
heck our capital is defiled on weekly basis and our ex-warchief turned to loot piniata, any equal in alliance side? And pls don't tell me theramore, because theramore was equal to stonecare at best (mage portals, did they remove them btw?) and was there for tailor master alliance
what conflict did horde win to make alliance weak exactly?

alliance problem comes purely from how top guilds just happened to be horde since classic, even if alliance has better racials since cata+, heck in any tournament you can see how it is purely dominated by alliance races, that's because they are premade and has no achievement/progress attached to them, u won't lose anything if u don't play ur 1502h+ played horde toon in said tournament

I can remember only troll racial be op in Jaina fight in BFA, but that's exception, general alliance both mythic and pvp tournaments dominate it
seriously anyone who think horde have 'better' racials didn't watch a single tournament on wow OFFICIAL youtube channel for over 8 years

"Roflstomped"? When did "losing cities, being genocided and only "winning" because Horde got into a civil war" is "roflstomp"? Its winning because your enemy got too distracted to finish you off.

Orgrimmar was besieged and what we see for it? A single plaque in the tunnel near brazier where nobody can see it anyway cause of how smoggy it is down there.

Garrosh went on a campaign of victories after victories all over Azeorth, same as Sylvanas... And Sylvanas also got away with it.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I would have loved to see one Bloodraven-like character in the Alliance, being willing to use more ruthless methods than the Wrynns and others, and being unapologetic about his actions and methods while not becoming a petty tyrant à la Garrosh or Sylvanas.

[Magharathon]

I think an entire shakeup would be great. A Cataclysm xpac that goes even further would be cool. Dragon Isles might be a good opportunity to unsunder Azeroth and reform a new mega continent. Have that shatter the horde and alliance and create new factions that are open to all races, but focus on different ideologies.

[Jackstraw]

You mistaking oranges for apples... as horde always does.

Vulper Purge Squads were disliked for how FUCKEN DUMB it was. WHY would Alliance waste actual purge on... vulpera?

Horde just genocided an Alliance race and instead of retaliating against actual perpetrators Alliance goes to purge vulpera caravans. Its was ridiculous and clearly only there to try and make a false equivalency.

Alliance players want to hit the Horde "core" like Horde hits Alliance "core" races - night elves, humans and etc. Purge of Forsaken would have been cheered on by whole community, massacre of orcs would be widely celebrated and even giving blood elves an "Arthas flashback" would be approved of.

Thanks for proving my point
Your stance is the reason why the Alliance cannot get any change and got none, as far as narrative goes.

I got nothing more to add.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Allow the dwarves, draenei and gnomes to have their moments of awesomeness and contribution to the Alliance, it's really something when the book Chronicles does a far better job of showing these races' badassery and ressourcefulness that the game and main novels do, such as the battles of Karabor and Gnomeregan which opposed them to the Horde.

[Daronokk]

The best way to make the Alliance more popular is by making the Horde less popular, according to Blizzard.

The Horde constantly getting their ass kicked, leaders killed off, replaced with random nobodies or not replaced at all, leaving them leaderless, cool characters getting the villain bat, you name it. The lows Blizzard has to stoop to to destroy the Horde faction, just for the Alliance to feel better about themselves.

[Nitedrifter]

There just isn't any closer ever to any of the Alliance storylines. Gilneas, Theramore, The different Dwarf factions, Gnomergon? did it ever get cleaned up? There just simply isnt anything particularly complete about the Alliance. Where as in the Horde as someone suggested there are so many different conflicts and lore lines to follow that each has a way of drawing you in. Alliance just gets passing thoughts.

[Aresk]

I think the golden opportunity was in Cataclysm and MOP, Varian should have taken Garrosh`s place and lead the Alliance down the dark path of vengeance against the Horde and Garrosh only managing to halt the Alliance onslaught by demonstrating proper honour on the field and swaying a part of the Alliance leaders to back away from the war.

This event would have given the Alliance the iniative in the conflict and litteraly eliminate the Mery Sue, knight in shining armour do gooder image the Alliance has.

It would have made both factions truely gray with the Alliance point at the first and second wars and the Horde pointing at this forth war.

But Blizzard had to go down the rabbit whole with Horde bad - Alliance good trope.

The Alliance had the initiative in the conflict in Wrath, with Varian declaring war precisely because he didn't like orcs and wanted to exterminate them. The post-Wrath treaty was then disrupted by the Horde/Twilight Hammer (Horde took responsibility regardless of who it was) under Thrall's rule. It wasn't really until MoP that Garrosh because the full Warchief (he was the interim warchief throughout the Shattering novel, and only after Deathwing's defeat did Thrall confirm he wouldn't retake the position), and at that point, he started going off the rails (this was also the time when Anduin convinced Varian to give up the path of vengeance). Even then, it was the Alliance that found Pandaria and led the Horde there.

Horde initiated the first war (there was no Alliance) and second (when the Alliance was founded). You could argue Horde rebels' attack on the shipyards began the third war with Daelin's crusade of eradication, but ultimately Daelin's the one who broke any peace founded after Hyjal. The Alliance-Horde War was likewise Alliance initiated, and then Horde is commonly said to have initiated the Fourth War (though some forum posters will point at Stormheim or Silithus and claim Alliance initiated it).

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

There just isn't any closer ever to any of the Alliance storylines. Gilneas, Theramore, The different Dwarf factions, Gnomergon? did it ever get cleaned up? There just simply isnt anything particularly complete about the Alliance. Where as in the Horde as someone suggested there are so many different conflicts and lore lines to follow that each has a way of drawing you in. Alliance just gets passing thoughts.

Yep most Alliance territories are still stuck in the same situation, with many of the problems that should have been resolved long ago still being here such, and nothing being done by the devs and writers to depoison Gnomeregan and Gilneas or the Azuremyst Isles.

[Iain]

Have that shatter the horde and alliance and create new factions that are open to all races, but focus on different ideologies.

The Convenant system was a prototype for this. You don't need to shatter anything, you can keep the Horde and Alliance but also have sub-factions that welcome players from both the Horde and the Alliance. This covenant would take a more meaningful role than the one in Shadowlands, not just narrative and cosmetic wise but also competing against the other factions through pve war efforts and world pvp territories.

And this can relate to recovering the Cataclysm dumpster fire that really needs to be doused by now. The covenants in Azeroth could be in strong disagreement about how to recover the place. Maybe a light-based covenant wants to burry and seal Gnomeregan forever because it can't be purified. A naturalist covenant wants to preserve it for the Troggs. The Steamwheedle Cartel (which is of course a covenant) wants to turn it into their outpost.

And so on. Same for the Sword, same for Teldrassil, same for the Loch Modan dam, Ungoro Crater, Sholazar Basin, Snek Temple in Voldun, and etc etc.

The world is now riddled with points of interests that a handful of factions can all hold different stakes in. They have to compete against each other to temporarily secure the spot and turn it into what they want to reap benefits from it, and then if another covenant crosses some treshold, the place becomes contested again and it's up for grabs once more.

[Friedrich]

You can't do much really. The fanbase rejects any iteration of the Alliance not based on Alliance good.
Case in point: the usual Vulpera Eradication squads.

Yeah.....but it would have done wonders for the flow of the story and muddle both the factions and make them gray.
Bad orcs is a tiresome trope only second to humans as knights in shining armour.

- - - Updated - - -

The Alliance had the initiative in the conflict in Wrath, with Varian declaring war precisely because he didn't like orcs and wanted to exterminate them. The post-Wrath treaty was then disrupted by the Horde/Twilight Hammer (Horde took responsibility regardless of who it was) under Thrall's rule. It wasn't really until MoP that Garrosh because the full Warchief (he was the interim warchief throughout the Shattering novel, and only after Deathwing's defeat did Thrall confirm he wouldn't retake the position), and at that point, he started going off the rails (this was also the time when Anduin convinced Varian to give up the path of vengeance). Even then, it was the Alliance that found Pandaria and led the Horde there.

Horde initiated the first war (there was no Alliance) and second (when the Alliance was founded). You could argue Horde rebels' attack on the shipyards began the third war with Daelin's crusade of eradication, but ultimately Daelin's the one who broke any peace founded after Hyjal. The Alliance-Horde War was likewise Alliance initiated, and then Horde is commonly said to have initiated the Fourth War (though some forum posters will point at Stormheim or Silithus and claim Alliance initiated it).

Good points, I even forgot about Daelins vendeta.

I was speaking more in general, the whole conflict, as was presented in WoW did a lot to keep the Alliance in the goody two shoes camp and the Horde in the baddie camp.

I think having the Alliance be the undisputed baddie for one expansion and the Horde actually stand up to their beloved honour would have been good for the story.

Both factions would have had moments in their history when they were bad, and moments when they were good.

[VladlTutushkin]

Thanks for proving my point
Your stance is the reason why the Alliance cannot get any change and got none, as far as narrative goes.

I got nothing more to add.

Learn to read first. And try understanding what you reading too.

I almost tempted to explain my point to you again, but you are obtuse on purpose so i wont even waste my time.

[Aresk]

Good points, I even forgot about Daelins vendeta.

I was speaking more in general, the whole conflict, as was presented in WoW did a lot to keep the Alliance in the goody two shoes camp and the Horde in the baddie camp.

I think having the Alliance be the undisputed baddie for one expansion and the Horde actually stand up to their beloved honour would have been good for the story.

Both factions would have had moments in their history when they were bad, and moments when they were good.

I do agree that the Alliance need more negatives, but I think neither faction should be the "undisputed" baddie. It didn't really do the Horde any favors in War of Thorns and BfA. The Alliance has done some awful things, just not on the same scale as the Horde. I think it was pretty balanced in Cata, where the massacre at Camp Taurajo can be balanced against the bombing of Thal'darah Grove, for instance. Only once we got into MoP, starting with the indiscriminate destruction of Theramore, did the Horde really start getting shown in a negative light, with tensions increasing with Vol'jin's attempted assassination and the troll rebellions. But even then, that was mostly the Horde dealing with itself; there wasn't really anything the Horde did to the Alliance that caused the Horde to question its path during that time.

A theoretical ending of MoP with Varian rejecting diplomacy, gutting Thrall, and continuing the conflict could have been an interesting turn of events, but it would've undermined the entire expansion theme. Honestly just swapping the order of Lordaeron and Teldrassil, with Anduin attacking the Horde after seeing Sylvanas' behavior in Arathi, would've proved a more interesting narrative with better tones than what we ultimately got in BfA (though it would've completely ruined Saurfang's arc, to the point where I don't know where the Horde story would've gone in that path).

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Gnomes could have had a so much more important role in the story and in the Alliance getting successes. For example they could have heavily contributed to the fight against the Forsaken and Sylvanas by finding antidotes and counters to the Blight and to many other biological weapons used by the Forsaken, to foil Sylvanas' plans and to help decontaminate plagued settlements and bases in Gilneas and Lordaeron. They could have helped create weapons against the Iron Horde and the Burning Legion during WOD and Legion. Their magical and alchemical abilities also could have been highlighted at least several times.

[Friedrich]

I do agree that the Alliance need more negatives, but I think neither faction should be the "undisputed" baddie. It didn't really do the Horde any favors in War of Thorns and BfA. The Alliance has done some awful things, just not on the same scale as the Horde. I think it was pretty balanced in Cata, where the massacre at Camp Taurajo can be balanced against the bombing of Thal'darah Grove, for instance. Only once we got into MoP, starting with the indiscriminate destruction of Theramore, did the Horde really start getting shown in a negative light, with tensions increasing with Vol'jin's attempted assassination and the troll rebellions. But even then, that was mostly the Horde dealing with itself; there wasn't really anything the Horde did to the Alliance that caused the Horde to question its path during that time.

A theoretical ending of MoP with Varian rejecting diplomacy, gutting Thrall, and continuing the conflict could have been an interesting turn of events, but it would've undermined the entire expansion theme. Honestly just swapping the order of Lordaeron and Teldrassil, with Anduin attacking the Horde after seeing Sylvanas' behavior in Arathi, would've proved a more interesting narrative with better tones than what we ultimately got in BfA (though it would've completely ruined Saurfang's arc, to the point where I don't know where the Horde story would've gone in that path).

For people who know the lore, and you seem to be up to date with it, the overall picture starts from the opening of the Portal, right?

Let`s step into Varian`s place for a moment. When you were just a kid you have this whole war and your kingdom wiped off the map, then comes a continental war that involved almost all humans, a lot of the Dwarves and the High Elves in their region.

Than comes the Thrid War, all Human kingdoms bar Kul`Tiras get wiped off the map letting Stormwind to take up the mantle of leadership of the Alliance (Stormwind didn`t really have the necessary time to rebound population wise in 20 or so years so the dominant power in the Alliance would actually be the Dwarves of Khaz Modan, but this in another topic).
Than Daelin dies in Kalimdor to the orcs, you hear all kinds of reports that he was responsible for the attack. You travel to Kalimdor at the behest of Jaina to meet this Thrall character, but events land you in their savage arenas and you barely escape in time to join a world crusade against the Lich King.

The first steps of the invasion against the Scourge go well....than disaster strikes at the gate of Icecrown when the allies of the Horde, the Forsaken betray you all and get Bolvar killed in the process.
Your forces are also struck from behind at one of the Wrath Gates by an over zelous Horde commander.

You but heads with a young and hot headed orc commander, Garrosh, the Lich King is delt with.

Cataclysm comes around, the cool headed Thrall is off doing shamanic rituals you care little about and Garrosh steps up.

A) You get PTSD from the First and Second Wars and mobilise to take the Horde down before they, invitably attack you in your opinion due to prior history.

B) You become a Powerpuff Girl with DBZ hair smocking Troll Weed and hoping for peace.

Keeping the all history in mind, and current events with Putriss in Undercity, in my opinion, it would have been more organic to have the Alliance start a punitive war against the Horde. And they would have all the rasons to do so, the logical reasoning is there.

On the other hand, the Horde would get to be the noble savages that BADED together in a world that WANTED them GONE.

You would have the Alliance initiate a conflict due to prior history and a Horde who actually DID change and wanted to be left alone. The story would have been far more natural and organic rather than lapse into a more coloured version of Gondor Vs Mordor Blizzard edition.

[Eggroll]

That's a very interesting point, but again, it's not really about what I am talking, which is what should be the narrative focus of the alliance in terms of the story itself.

Don't let the Alliance lose everytime. Even if they win. Losers do not attract.