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  1. #481
    The solution is very simple.

    1)Have a deep dive on what is defining each sub faction. Set up their internal politics, needs, priorities as a nation. Make conflicting politics inside of Alliance. The Dark Iron Business is different to Worgen. Don't make them all happy, cooperative and holding hands, that is boring and completely unrealistic even for a fantasy genre.

    2)I think it would be great to set a story where you follow one narrative and see how it is developing.
    In example choice A) Join the night elves in their efforts to rebuilt B) Join the humans and help them in Westfall because that zone is beyond broke.
    Whatever choice you'll make you have to stick to it, and provide different rewards. Let there be one meaningful choice in game at least.

    3) Give more shady characters, and get them all from just gray to completely amoral and vindictive. Alliance can still be "the good faction" but everywhere are black sheeps, and having some dark clouds inside would still invoke lots of interest. Let's use House of the Nobles again, still some political drama to takeover Stormwind

    4) Make players lose at times - similar fashion like in Vash'ir in Cataclysm. I think it was the most compelling way to show that no matter what player did, against impossible odds you can still lose. But from each loss there has to be lesson learned, it has to give you some clue on what is next and how to work around it. I'm not talking about BfA-scale like loss. But something more bearable and something that can be used as a way to build up new NPCs, New Heroes and get some fresh blood. (Altho I'd say Horde needs new heroes far more right now).

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    The solution is very simple.

    1)Have a deep dive on what is defining each sub faction. Set up their internal politics, needs, priorities as a nation. Make conflicting politics inside of Alliance. The Dark Iron Business is different to Worgen. Don't make them all happy, cooperative and holding hands, that is boring and completely unrealistic even for a fantasy genre.

    2)I think it would be great to set a story where you follow one narrative and see how it is developing.
    In example choice A) Join the night elves in their efforts to rebuilt B) Join the humans and help them in Westfall because that zone is beyond broke.
    Whatever choice you'll make you have to stick to it, and provide different rewards. Let there be one meaningful choice in game at least.

    3) Give more shady characters, and get them all from just gray to completely amoral and vindictive. Alliance can still be "the good faction" but everywhere are black sheeps, and having some dark clouds inside would still invoke lots of interest. Let's use House of the Nobles again, still some political drama to takeover Stormwind

    4) Make players lose at times - similar fashion like in Vash'ir in Cataclysm. I think it was the most compelling way to show that no matter what player did, against impossible odds you can still lose. But from each loss there has to be lesson learned, it has to give you some clue on what is next and how to work around it. I'm not talking about BfA-scale like loss. But something more bearable and something that can be used as a way to build up new NPCs, New Heroes and get some fresh blood. (Altho I'd say Horde needs new heroes far more right now).
    I agree with you, this lack of layers in the Alliance characters, with characters being either good or bad, with opponents becoming corrupt and evil (such as Fandral, Maiev, Benedictus) most of the time is dragging the story and faction quality down.

    Not counting the lacks of proper internal politics, progress in the races' story with them staying stuck in the same status quo, and interactions between the races, especially non-human ones.

    Also I think that the Alliance should have more and deeper storylines that don't involve the Horde, and where the faction and its races are actually progressing toward something, such as taking back homes or bettering the lives of the peoples or developping relations with neutral races and factions.

  3. #483
    Make the Alliance the aggressors and their perception will change.

  4. #484
    Undo most retarded nerf to human racial and its gg.

    They even said at some point in time (during BFA if I believe) that they will at least make it NOT share CD with other pvp trinks. And still nothing.

    Having 1 single stun remove with 3 min cd that also shares CD with "insignia" trinkets is beyond retarded.

    This thread actually reminded me how they burried PVP, destroyed honor system and implemented "kill-bots-to-earn-recolor" instead.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I agree with you, this lack of layers in the Alliance characters, with characters being either good or bad, with opponents becoming corrupt and evil (such as Fandral, Maiev, Benedictus) most of the time is dragging the story and faction quality down.

    Not counting the lacks of proper internal politics, progress in the races' story with them staying stuck in the same status quo, and interactions between the races, especially non-human ones.

    Also I think that the Alliance should have more and deeper storylines that don't involve the Horde, and where the faction and its races are actually progressing toward something, such as taking back homes or bettering the lives of the peoples or developping relations with neutral races and factions.
    Yep, exactly. The reason why Dark Irons are my favorite faction in Alliance is because they have their own style, they're not goody two shoes and can get their hands dirty, but they're still pragmatic and not over the top evil. There is lots of interesting ways you can use them and they have a distinctive identity that sets them apart from the rest. If used well they could be the top dog on blue team.

    What makes characters great are their motivations to do something, even if they're antagonistic. The reason why after so many years people still venerate Zul'Jin was because of his easy to understand motives which are hard not to respect, same as Van Cleefs and people of Westfall. Characters don't have to be ridiculously powerful to be likeable and impactful. The reson why Zekhan took community by storm (no pun intended) wasn't because he was "badass" but because he was relatable, he was new, he was fresh, and there was something very endearing about him (ofc it had to be ruined with later story, because instead of making him a Darkspear champion, he is now constant sidekick to some bigger hero).


    And as you said, Alliance needs to have a story OUTSIDE of the Horde. They have to have their own agenda and aims to fullfill, and what would make it even more interesting - if each subfaction had different aims that would be conflicting at times. It would be refreshing to see certain faction say "no we won't take part of this campaign, I see no benefit in it, we will do something else instead". And then next patch, new content and you see that for example worgen made some experition or campaign on their own, without Alliance aid.

    2 years ago I wrote a concept on how to get rid of Anduin- Humans of Stormwind were participating in each campaign, sending troops left and right, but what do they get in return? People in Westfall are still super poor, and it felt that Anduin cared more for Horde than he did over his own people (and I'mnot talking about whole alliance, but just human population of Stormwind), what he did for his own people? Any track record? And this is when things could get interesting. He could be challenged by the nobles and due to political machinations he could lose the throne, not because of the Horde, but because his own people had enough of him. He could still return but it would shake things up.

    With humans returning to their own business Dwarves could step up, as they remain to be the military superpower, they could have a completely different approach to the leadership than Stormwind did.

    Just an example. I think it would be very interesting and I'd love to be a part of this kind of story. You don't need world-ending threats to have compelling stories.

    I would also love a content "build your capital" where for example through content patches players gather resources and contribute to building a city.
    Both nelves and undeads could have it, and it would give them a feeling of accomplishment that their dailies and other activities made something meaningful to grow.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    Yep, exactly. The reason why Dark Irons are my favorite faction in Alliance is because they have their own style, they're not goody two shoes and can get their hands dirty, but they're still pragmatic and not over the top evil. There is lots of interesting ways you can use them and they have a distinctive identity that sets them apart from the rest. If used well they could be the top dog on blue team.

    What makes characters great are their motivations to do something, even if they're antagonistic. The reason why after so many years people still venerate Zul'Jin was because of his easy to understand motives which are hard not to respect, same as Van Cleefs and people of Westfall. Characters don't have to be ridiculously powerful to be likeable and impactful. The reson why Zekhan took community by storm (no pun intended) wasn't because he was "badass" but because he was relatable, he was new, he was fresh, and there was something very endearing about him (ofc it had to be ruined with later story, because instead of making him a Darkspear champion, he is now constant sidekick to some bigger hero).


    And as you said, Alliance needs to have a story OUTSIDE of the Horde. They have to have their own agenda and aims to fullfill, and what would make it even more interesting - if each subfaction had different aims that would be conflicting at times. It would be refreshing to see certain faction say "no we won't take part of this campaign, I see no benefit in it, we will do something else instead". And then next patch, new content and you see that for example worgen made some experition or campaign on their own, without Alliance aid.

    2 years ago I wrote a concept on how to get rid of Anduin- Humans of Stormwind were participating in each campaign, sending troops left and right, but what do they get in return? People in Westfall are still super poor, and it felt that Anduin cared more for Horde than he did over his own people (and I'mnot talking about whole alliance, but just human population of Stormwind), what he did for his own people? Any track record? And this is when things could get interesting. He could be challenged by the nobles and due to political machinations he could lose the throne, not because of the Horde, but because his own people had enough of him. He could still return but it would shake things up.

    With humans returning to their own business Dwarves could step up, as they remain to be the military superpower, they could have a completely different approach to the leadership than Stormwind did.

    Just an example. I think it would be very interesting and I'd love to be a part of this kind of story. You don't need world-ending threats to have compelling stories.

    I would also love a content "build your capital" where for example through content patches players gather resources and contribute to building a city.
    Both nelves and undeads could have it, and it would give them a feeling of accomplishment that their dailies and other activities made something meaningful to grow.
    Speaking of the Dark Iron Dwarves, I always found it à missed opportunity that there weren't true suspicions and tensions between them and the non-dwarven races of the Alliance.

    Especially with the Gnomes given that the Gnomes' friendship with Bronzebeard Dwarves surely caused them to help them several times against the Dark Irons, and the Dark Irons' ties with Sicco Thermaplugg.

    Same for the Worgens, realistically most members of the Alliance would most surely be scared ans wary of them due to them being wolfmen and of their savagery and dangerosity.

  7. #487
    Stop making them the goodie goodie people and actually get some grey characters.

    Focus on Genn reclaiming his kingdom and be aggressive toward the forsaken and blood elves in the eastern kingdoms.

    Have the dwarf tribes getting new conflicts between each other since they are now all friendly it became a empty race without soul.

    Have some crazy Gnomes getting to far into mad experiments.

    Make Stormwind a fanatic city that wants to force the light toward everybody like the Dreanei did in alternative Dreanor. And then have Velen try to keep them in check but unable to do so.

    Night Elves well i guess make them rebuild their city somewhere.

    I guess when a few off these thing happen makes the faction more interesting.
    Right now there is no conflict or soul in this faction.

  8. #488
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Good god, the reason people don't care about the Alliance is not because the Alliance is not also genocidal hypocrits like the Horde. I don't know why people think the gaming population was supplanted by emos but people are not looking for nuanced morally gray characters. They are looking for cool heroes who win the day and look good doing so. That's the problem with the Alliance, it never gets to celebrate a victory. Every time the Alliance wins at anything the story immediately makes a point to beat them down. You never get to feel like you won. Then the aesthetics are just generic fantasy which also detracts from making things look cool. You don't need the edge to be in the characters, you need it in the clothing (and maybe the spell effects). Be a bit more shallow, it works.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Good god, the reason people don't care about the Alliance is not because the Alliance is not also genocidal hypocrits like the Horde. I don't know why people think the gaming population was supplanted by emos but people are not looking for nuanced morally gray characters. They are looking for cool heroes who win the day and look good doing so. That's the problem with the Alliance, it never gets to celebrate a victory. Every time the Alliance wins at anything the story immediately makes a point to beat them down. You never get to feel like you won. Then the aesthetics are just generic fantasy which also detracts from making things look cool. You don't need the edge to be in the characters, you need it in the clothing (and maybe the spell effects). Be a bit more shallow, it works.
    Never winning and never actually feeling like a hero is a big issue for Alliance, sure.

    Game keeps telling you that you are a hero , but you never actually see it. You just lose, suffer, “win” bitter pyrrhic victories and then suffer more in the aftermath. Even Horde dosent have to go through that much anguish in every story.

    I know that hero needs a “hardship moment” to overcome but Alliance feels like one endless , agonising struggle without end or any light in it and not a heroic overcoming.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Stop making them the goodie goodie people and actually get some grey characters.

    Focus on Genn reclaiming his kingdom and be aggressive toward the forsaken and blood elves in the eastern kingdoms.

    Have the dwarf tribes getting new conflicts between each other since they are now all friendly it became a empty race without soul.

    Have some crazy Gnomes getting to far into mad experiments.

    Make Stormwind a fanatic city that wants to force the light toward everybody like the Dreanei did in alternative Dreanor. And then have Velen try to keep them in check but unable to do so.

    Night Elves well i guess make them rebuild their city somewhere.

    I guess when a few off these thing happen makes the faction more interesting.
    Right now there is no conflict or soul in this faction.
    Night elves need to just take over Hyjal and officially throw the Horde out and bar them access to the Nordrassil, druid or not.

  10. #490
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Never winning and never actually feeling like a hero is a big issue for Alliance, sure.

    Game keeps telling you that you are a hero , but you never actually see it. You just lose, suffer, “win” bitter pyrrhic victories and then suffer more in the aftermath. Even Horde dosent have to go through that much anguish in every story.

    I know that hero needs a “hardship moment” to overcome but Alliance feels like one endless , agonising struggle without end or any light in it and not a heroic overcoming.
    Oh please, it's never meant to be a hardship moment. It's not a hardship moment when you are told you won the warfronts and are winning on most fronts but immediately follow that up with Anduin telling us we are conscripting farmers, will soon not have enough to feed ourselves only to then have our entire fleet, which we just got, sunk chasing one Horde vessel like noobs. Horde gets besieged and gets a better looking city out of it at the same point; Alliance gets attacked and has its capital have ruined areas for half a decade before they get fixed. Horde attacks Alliance areas and they get stuck looking perpetually besiged, Alliance attacks and actually wins over the Horde and then in the next phase it is as if nothing happened. Like, what?

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Never winning and never actually feeling like a hero is a big issue for Alliance, sure.

    Game keeps telling you that you are a hero , but you never actually see it. You just lose, suffer, “win” bitter pyrrhic victories and then suffer more in the aftermath. Even Horde dosent have to go through that much anguish in every story.

    I know that hero needs a “hardship moment” to overcome but Alliance feels like one endless , agonising struggle without end or any light in it and not a heroic overcoming.
    That is the big mistake of the Alliance.

    You're never going to see the ones you saved so you didn't save them and as a consolation prize you're not going to kill the ones who caused the problem either.

    You don't defend anyone and you don't bring justice to anyone.

    And the Neutrals don't count because that's what the Horde does too so it wouldn't be something "intresnte of the alliance" but of the Wow itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Night elves need to just take over Hyjal and officially throw the Horde out and bar them access to the Nordrassil, druid or not.
    And drive the Horde from all their forests

  12. #492
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Not show mass favoritism towards the Horde? Not to hard but something they don't want to do

  13. #493
    Play on oceanic servers, alliance out number horde here.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Not show mass favoritism towards the Horde? Not to hard but something they don't want to do
    Or maybe kill some highrank characters, destroy whole political system, change motifs and fantasy, kill almost every known character.
    And maybe there - you will find interest in your faction.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    destroy whole political system
    To be fair they already did that a long time ago by making a High King that leads the Alliance in a Horde-lite way instead of having an actually alliance where there can be disagreements on what shoud be done.
    Khadgar: "Well Zergy, are you armed?"

    *Does a facepalm using [Blackhand's Severed Arm]*

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Oh please, it's never meant to be a hardship moment. It's not a hardship moment when you are told you won the warfronts and are winning on most fronts but immediately follow that up with Anduin telling us we are conscripting farmers, will soon not have enough to feed ourselves only to then have our entire fleet, which we just got, sunk chasing one Horde vessel like noobs. Horde gets besieged and gets a better looking city out of it at the same point; Alliance gets attacked and has its capital have ruined areas for half a decade before they get fixed. Horde attacks Alliance areas and they get stuck looking perpetually besiged, Alliance attacks and actually wins over the Horde and then in the next phase it is as if nothing happened. Like, what?
    There is something even worse than this.
    1)The Horde under Garrosh and Sylvannas attacked neutral factions to obtain a WMD so they can use it against the Alliance but they never paid the price. Both Garrosh and Sylvannas were attacked by neutral factions only when they were part of an NPC Enemy Faction.
    2)The Horde under Garrosh and Sylvannas brought Azeroth to certain doom many times meddling with Dark Powers in the form of Ysaarj Heart, the Blank Scroll, the Focusing Iris, freeing Nzoth, spearheading the Legion Invasion through alternative timelines and helping Zovaal through Sylvannas change reality. I haven't seen them paying any consequences.
    3)Third and worst of it all the Alliance has to clear the Horde's mess everytime.

    In general this has to stop.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    There is something even worse than this.
    1)The Horde under Garrosh and Sylvannas attacked neutral factions to obtain a WMD so they can use it against the Alliance but they never paid the price. Both Garrosh and Sylvannas were attacked by neutral factions only when they were part of an NPC Enemy Faction.
    2)The Horde under Garrosh and Sylvannas brought Azeroth to certain doom many times meddling with Dark Powers in the form of Ysaarj Heart, the Blank Scroll, the Focusing Iris, freeing Nzoth, spearheading the Legion Invasion through alternative timelines and helping Zovaal through Sylvannas change reality. I haven't seen them paying any consequences.
    3)Third and worst of it all the Alliance has to clear the Horde's mess everytime.

    In general this has to stop.
    How about no?
    1. That means Dalaran? Back in the time it was strongly blue flavored with crazy Jaina as a leader. She even murdered blood elves - where are consequences? Or Divine Bell, that was stollen by NE, than restollen by Horde?
    2. Yea, Nzoth is Sylvanas fault, totally. And Focusing Iris was far from worldending thing. Oh, and Legion invasion case was brilliant. It wasnot Garrosh fault - he just start run from trial. Kairoz let all of this happen. Khadgar let Guldan escape, twice! So by your logic - him to be blamed. Or Wrathion who told Kairoz to do so, or even Anduin - who tell Garrosh that his meal was poisoned. No Garrosh - no problem, yes? Or we forgot that Benedictus dude that start End of Times? Archbishop of Stormwind churche btw. Or by that logic we could blame Arthas and Kelthuzad for all of this starting, and they were humans back in a day.
    3. And again - nope. Horde clean after itself, Alliance just helping them. Sorry lad.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2022-08-01 at 05:28 PM.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    How about no?
    1. That means Dalaran? Back in the time it was strongly blue flavored with crazy Jaina as a leader. She even murdered blood elves - where are consequences? Or Divine Bell, that was stollen by NE, than restollen by Horde?
    2. Yea, Nzoth is Sylvanas fault, totally. And Focusing Iris was far from worldending thing. Oh, and Legion invasion case was brilliant. It wasnot Garrosh fault - he just start run from trial. Kairoz let all of this happen. Khadgar let Guldan escape, twice! So by your logic - him to be blamed. Or Wrathion who told Kairoz to do so, or even Anduin - who tell Garrosh that his meal was poisoned. No Garrosh - no problem, yes? Or we forgot that Benedictus dude that start End of Times? Archbishop of Stormwind churche btw. Or by that logic we could blame Arthas and Kelthuzad for all of this starting, and they were humans back in a day.
    3. And again - nope. Horde clean after itself, Alliance just helping them. Sorry lad.
    I don't see them cleaning up Dark Coast.
    Or that they have closed the portal to Drenor.
    Or that they have gone to the head of fighting in Legion.

    I'm not going to fall for the foolish idea that you have to punish the Horde to make the Alliance interesting. But there is no denying that the Horde vs Alliance conflict plot is unfair to the Alliance.

    Then it levels out being more Alliance when we fight against neutral enemies... but again what is the point of playing alliance if all the Cool Moments of the Alliance you are going to play even if you are Horde?

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Oh please, it's never meant to be a hardship moment. It's not a hardship moment when you are told you won the warfronts and are winning on most fronts but immediately follow that up with Anduin telling us we are conscripting farmers, will soon not have enough to feed ourselves only to then have our entire fleet, which we just got, sunk chasing one Horde vessel like noobs. Horde gets besieged and gets a better looking city out of it at the same point; Alliance gets attacked and has its capital have ruined areas for half a decade before they get fixed. Horde attacks Alliance areas and they get stuck looking perpetually besiged, Alliance attacks and actually wins over the Horde and then in the next phase it is as if nothing happened. Like, what?
    What in said. Its not hardship, its humiliation and degradation and being clowned on by devs who wouldnt be able to dispose of their biases if their live depended on it. I am serious, i think Danuser wouldnt give up his hug pillow if someone put a sowed off shotgun loaded with rusty nails shrapnel to his head.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Or maybe kill some highrank characters, destroy whole political system, change motifs and fantasy, kill almost every known character.
    And maybe there - you will find interest in your faction.
    They already did it to the Alliance. When character entirely changes their personality or becomes a passive cardboard , arent they essentially "dead"? Look at Tyrande for the most egregious example. And at night elves for entirely killing race's identity.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Then it levels out being more Alliance when we fight against neutral enemies... but again what is the point of playing alliance if all the Cool Moments of the Alliance you are going to play even if you are Horde?
    Well, same can be said about Horde. Name one or two Cool Moment in wow lore from MoP to SL, where Horde players can say something like "F*king YEA! FOR THE HORDE!"
    One thing, that may count, but not quite is ending cinematic of Frostfire. Thats all.

    You have been at least be victors in that game. Our side - do not. Always losing, always face in a dirt.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They already did it to the Alliance. When character entirely changes their personality or becomes a passive cardboard , arent they essentially "dead"? Look at Tyrande for the most egregious example. And at night elves for entirely killing race's identity.
    Well, they are at least alive - and can change - Jaina in MoP as example, Malfurion and Tyrande. Horde characters in other hand - just been killed. 1 character that denied that fate - is VolJin, but he will be in stasis like 5-10 years, if devs even remember about him.

    Name 2 more character in Darkspear aside Rokhan and Vanira (3th grade troll character afk since Cata)?
    Maybe famous taurens aside Runetotem and Baine (both afk since Cata)
    Maybe goblin aside Gazlow and that madman doctor from bfa campain?
    Or even orc aside Thrall that are alive?
    Same with most of allied races. Highmountain have Mayla and that it. Maghars have only Geyara. Even famous Zandalari mostly dead or killable.

    Can you say the same about Alliance characters?
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2022-08-01 at 07:56 PM.

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