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  1. #541
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Alliance already became more interesting when Turalyon became King of Stormwind in all but name, with Alleria Windrunner at his side.

    Whereas Anduin was an untested brat, Turalyon is a proven and capable administrator, who already oversaw the reconstruction of Stormwind as the Regent of a young Varian Wrynn.

    Of course, we cannot forget about Alleria Windrunner, who proved her leadership skills when she spearheaded an elven expedition into Draenor and then rescued and took over the leadership of the Ren'dorei group. I am sure she has done her part in securing Stormwind.

    With Turalyon as Regent (de-facto King) and Alleria as his chief advisor, Stormwind has entered into an age of peace and stability that has continued for several years after Shadowlands (timeskip of peace between Shadowlands and Dragonflight). We should consider this a major victory, for Stormwind in-universe (as the nation is currently in a period of unprecedented peace), and for us players who have been longing for more spotlight outside of the Wrynns. I expect to see a lot more Turalyon and Alleria in the future.
    This made the alliance far less interesting to me.

  2. #542
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I've heard many people linking him to the Shen'dralar simply because that holdout group and him are the only known Highborne around on both continents.
    For all we know - he could have been a hermit back when the land that would be known as Lordaeron, fell under the Kaldorei Empire.

    But we also know of people who have traveled to Dire Maul to tell the Prince of their stories as well.

    So - we could imply that the Elves were scrying on Lordaeron, as the Night Elves were aware of Lordaeron's fall, hence how they knew of the Paladin's book, but that doesn't indicate scrying on the world. The latter part of this claim, does require a statement from Blizzard because it is quite the bold claim and I personally think that the Shen'dralar Ancient herself, would have made mention of it.
    Such as her stating that her people were aware of the natives of Quel'Thalas and Lordaeron's fall and the Orcish Wars in the Southern areas of the East. Kalimdor might be easier for them, so it's entirely possible that they saw things like the War of the Shifting Sands. With this, we'd have far more material to work with, but we don't.
    Hearsay isn't a canon link, as you've pointed out yourself as concerns scrying and the Shen'dralar. Kir-Moldir himself says he's been searching for a way to restore the Highborne to their previous status, including plumbing the Twisting Nether, so it's highly likely he's been searching other dimensions and other worlds for a means to restore his people.

    I'm not really sure why scrying upon the world would be such a bold claim as you say, it's pretty standard practice for Mages of all stripes - and it doesn't really imply much beyond explaining why the Shen'dralar are so well informed of modern goings-on and so forth. As for the Shen'dralar Ancient specifically, she's more focused on ending the threat of Immol'thar than explaining the history of her people, so discussing Shen'dralar's lifestyle is not really a concern insofar as she goes.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Hearsay isn't a canon link, as you've pointed out yourself as concerns scrying and the Shen'dralar. Kir-Moldir himself says he's been searching for a way to restore the Highborne to their previous status, including plumbing the Twisting Nether, so it's highly likely he's been searching other dimensions and other worlds for a means to restore his people.

    I'm not really sure why scrying upon the world would be such a bold claim as you say, it's pretty standard practice for Mages of all stripes - and it doesn't really imply much beyond explaining why the Shen'dralar are so well informed of modern goings-on and so forth. As for the Shen'dralar Ancient specifically, she's more focused on ending the threat of Immol'thar than explaining the history of her people, so discussing Shen'dralar's lifestyle is not really a concern insofar as she goes.
    So we could easily say then - every Mage group on Azeroth could have been scrying on Azeroth.

    From the Magisters to the Kirin Tor to the Shen'dralar, to even the Zandalari, since all of these were well versed on a lot of races and their cultures.

  4. #544
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    So we could easily say then - every Mage group on Azeroth could have been scrying on Azeroth.

    From the Magisters to the Kirin Tor to the Shen'dralar, to even the Zandalari, since all of these were well versed on a lot of races and their cultures.
    That could be easily said, yes. Save for locations warded against scrying, it would be a very effective intelligence-gathering method, and any culture that indulges in the Arcane could easily make use of it.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    This made the alliance far less interesting to me.
    So having your shit in order makes things less interesting to you? Do you crave turmoil so much?

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    So having your shit in order makes things less interesting to you? Do you crave turmoil so much?
    Perfection = boring.

    Turmoil doesn't have to be big, but can create some really interesting story developments.
    Purge of Dalaran was one of those smaller turmoil stories that was great. On reflection, Vereesa Windrunner was one of the best characters during 5.1 and 5.2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That could be easily said, yes. Save for locations warded against scrying, it would be a very effective intelligence-gathering method, and any culture that indulges in the Arcane could easily make use of it.
    So with that in mind.

    Scrying on the world isn't really a big thing then, is it? If everyone is doing it and doing it well...it's a shoulder-shrugging thing for all parties.

  7. #547
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    So with that in mind.

    Scrying on the world isn't really a big thing then, is it? If everyone is doing it and doing it well...it's a shoulder-shrugging thing for all parties.
    I would say so, hence my confusion as to why you thought the Shen'dralar scrying for knowledge and lore across Azeroth was for some reason a big deal or otherwise a lore-breaking revelation. For a group that is specialized and focused on the Arcane, it'd make sense they'd make heavy use of the Arcane for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would say so, hence my confusion as to why you thought the Shen'dralar scrying for knowledge and lore across Azeroth was for some reason a big deal or otherwise a lore-breaking revelation. For a group that is specialized and focused on the Arcane, it'd make sense they'd make heavy use of the Arcane for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance.
    Because it was phrased in a way where it was only one group of people who were doing it.
    I never really thought about every advanced Mage group doing it, until now.

    Again, it's not confirmed in Blood Elf lore directly so I never even considered it for them. (Yes, their is a sub faction of Blood Elves called the Scryers, but are they actually scryers or more of a rebel group of former Sunfury Mages and Farstriders.)

  9. #549
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Because it was phrased in a way where it was only one group of people who were doing it.
    I never really thought about every advanced Mage group doing it, until now.

    Again, it's not confirmed in Blood Elf lore directly so I never even considered it for them. (Yes, their is a sub faction of Blood Elves called the Scryers, but are they actually scryers or more of a rebel group of former Sunfury Mages and Farstriders.)
    Well, we definitely know that they're not the only group of people doing it - the Mages of Kirin'var Village in Outland had a scrying room, and both the Kirin Tor and Medivh made common use of the practice as well. Khadgar uses scrying as well, employing a scrying spell on Draenor during WoD to locate Gul'dan and the Shadow Council. As for the Blood Elves, they definitely know of and indulge in the practice, as shown in the quest Arcane De-Construction with the Blood Elven Mage Andorel Sunsworn commenting on and mocking the Scrying Stones that the Highborne arcanists are using for being older technology, so to speak.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    So having your shit in order makes things less interesting to you? Do you crave turmoil so much?
    Has nothing to do with that. It's Turalyon and Alleria are super lame.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Because it was phrased in a way where it was only one group of people who were doing it.
    I never really thought about every advanced Mage group doing it, until now.

    Again, it's not confirmed in Blood Elf lore directly so I never even considered it for them. (Yes, their is a sub faction of Blood Elves called the Scryers, but are they actually scryers or more of a rebel group of former Sunfury Mages and Farstriders.)
    No it wasn't, I was also wondering what your problem with that was, expecting proof to be hand presented to you - but the reason is because of your issues with night elves and anything that threatens your idea or desire for blood elf dominance on magic. You've always shown signs of this Tany. Let me explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    No he didn't.
    He did, and you can't even see that your show this blatantly. I know you love blood elves and arcane magic, because you harp on about it all the time, very interested in showing their arcane over everything, including the light, you love too see that emphasised and reflected because it's your favourite aspect.

    I also know you are jealous of the night elves and don't like their arcane lore - you always find issues, you are always sceptical, you are always in denial of the lore, you constantly ask for proof, and you always look to diminish them. You love to emphasise their nature loving side and nature magic side even though you're not interested in them and you don't like nature magic - you've never played a druid or at least not serious.

    It comes clearly across as an attempt to undermine a side of them you somehow feel threatened about.

    I'm pointing out to you that it is a bit ridiculous to feel that, rather you should connect with the night elf kinship, because all blood elves come from them and Nightborne are essentially a version of them. You should embrace their accomplishments and not see them as some sort of rival because they are on the opposite faction - this is what proves your faction centric view because you are incapable of connecting to night elven Highborne and have done so much to deny them despite being clearly wrong.

    Your insistence and challenge is entirely what drives night elven Highborne discussion, because the more you deny and challenge it whenever it mentions as you patrol the forums, you force people to step in to correct you, which you challenge, and then basically something that would have passed quickly and been forgotten about is dragged into the spotlight because you had a problem with it.

    And why did you have a problem with it? Because you want the blood elves to be supreme, and don't like it that opposite faction elves might be better at something you like. So you try to disprove and challenge what is already there, rather than embrace the parts of it that relate to you because clearly, blood elves relate to night elves, they all come from night elves . As a blood elf fan you can take pride in every night elven pre-sundering accomplishment and the first 3,000 years of the long vigil, because your people were night elves up to that point.

    But no, you have to rubbish them, diminish them like they are nothing - it's like spitting on your past , those idiots who think they're all that and completely forget where they came from - they wouldn't exist without the past they so think themselves superior to. It's worse in wow, because for elves, the highest point of their race was in the pre-sundering civilization, everything since has not measured up. At least not yet, nor for any of their factions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    So with that in mind.

    Scrying on the world isn't really a big thing then, is it? If everyone is doing it and doing it well...it's a shoulder-shrugging thing for all parties.
    It isn't a big thing, you just took issue with any magical thing the Shen'dralar were doing, because you want to believe them as rubbish with magic so blood elves can be superior.

    Knowledge and it's accumulation is one of the things they are obsessed with - no one should need to spend hours searching for the quote to prove to you this happened, given the nature of these people it is highly surprising.

    So what surprises you? that they were obsessed with the arcane and feverishly studied it for the last 10,000 years extending their knowledge? that they screyed upon the world and had been all this time, but chose not to intervene in any conflict, a very elven, Highborne in particular trait - although their unique history helps shed some context as to why. (remember they chose not intervene in the invasion of the legion till it reached their doorstep)

    That they were the empire's top arcanists, and would be extremely talented at magic - it's in their introduction
    That they processed the Queen's top projects - implying hte advanced stuff, the wonder things Mordant comments about

    Does it surprise you that this is the group? Do you resent that they are still around? or you so badly do not want the night elves to do anything arcane magical - despite the lroe having them have capability through groups like the Shen'dralar still being around, having groups like the Moonguard still be around from legion offering a highly skilled magical combat group (yet to join the Darnassiasn btw) or having the Farondis - the foremost renowned arcane researchers ever to walk Azeroth (given that they were exploring the mysteries of the arcane with blue dragons, before Azshara's court fell to hubris)

    so because someone points out , actually the night elves still have the potential to have a quite spectacular arcane wing and display that side of their race - do you resent that the night elves could do something more spectacular that Silvermoon? or is it that fans of the night elves want to see great arcane works and night elven civilziation stuff - or you hate that they get excited about it? You see see I think it's all of the above, but I think you feel threatened that the night leves would have something incredible because you're a fan. This is what fans of football clubs, and other things do, they get os invested in their side or club, that they become disproportionately aggressive and anti against their rivals- even make believe rivals. You do realise fan is short for fanatic right? something I notice people have got offended at. they accept being called fans, but get insulted being called fanatics /rolleyes.

    You are so into blood elves, you consider night elves the enemy and huge rivals because the wow tBC lore paints them as such because they are alliance - you've taken it completely to heart, and never even question the sense of it - in fact you come down heavy on anyone who does - how dare they suggest a future of r the blood elves outside the horde for example, because you are totally sold on that.. even when people try to point out that this display .. is a step down for the elves, not a step up, they should actually be rising above the horde and alliance - being much older and actually more advanced. However you take it as some sort of personal insult, when it isn't. Just like a football fan who can't stand it when people criitcise his club or present a narrative different from that which the club is following.

    Your fanaticism blinds you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So talking big about night elves annoys you. Why would someone talking obig or bragging/relishing the things about the race they enjoy annoy you? they call that jealousy.

    Night elves have something better than the blood elves you liike, and you hate being reminded of it, so want to pretend it either isn't real or doesn't exist, you fight it avery corner, and you have no need to. it's jealousy. The fac you only do it over their arcane accomplishments and only call those into question while boasting and lauding about the blood elven ones proves it.

    Why are you not critical at all of the druidic claims? or the feral savage or martial claims - because you don't care about those things, you even knot care about blood elven farstriders - just the magic, so you want the blood elves to be the best, so when someone shows you or points out night elves were great at that and were better - you have a massive problem with that.. massive - you go out of your way to question every detail, demand every ounce of proof, deny everything, you re-interpret and take the lowest, and worse possible meaning of everything shown, always looking it down, to diminish it. why? Jealousy, rivalry.

    if you did it in character - as in roleplaying I'd understand, but you don't, you legitimately question the established lore on this you wanted everyone to think that blizzard no longer pursues or develops this aspect about night elves - as if that somehow removes the arcane form night elves and zeroes all their accomplishments there - you feel better if it wasn't part of the night elves, so your blood elves could shine, and if not the blood elves at least the horde, because the horde night elves, the Nightborne are great friends with the blood elves, so it's not so bad at least, but woe betide it's the other faction's elves - oh they're the enemies.

    Can't have that, so you challenge EVERYBODY who has anything good to say about night leves and the arcane or shows any desire or interest in more of that - they are not allowed to, can't have that, it threatens you (somehow) because the blood elves might not be as good. So you fight so hard to discourage them, prove to them it's not going to happen, because them talking about it, mentioning it greatly unsettles you.

    Sigh.. classic fan. why don't you let people liek what they like and stop trying to manipulate their desires or subvert them. Also get over it. Blood elves are not the exclusive best amongst the elves at arcane magic, and blood elves come from night elves. Direct your anger to the faction conflict forced upon them to create faction tensions back in TBC.. rather th an get angry that the night elves are talented at the arcane and have top grade expertise in areas of it through their various groups like the Shen'dralar, the moonguard, the Farondis etc.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP.
    A lot of waffle and not much said.

    I give praise where it's needed and where the lore is concrete.
    The Shen'dralar are the ONLY elves in the game to not show any visible signs of fel corruption.

    The Wardens are the most elite group of night elven defenders. Maiev Shadowsong has always been my 3rd favorite character because of this. I would love to see her again, but it's unlikely as the voice actress has stated that doing Maiev's voice for long period does cause her to get a sore throat.

    You have always had a problem with those who like Maiev Shadowsong because she killed some highborne. Well, tough.

    Maiev is one of those best characters because she brings a ferocious slice to the night elves that they have been lacking in, for ages. I hope she is utilized as a member of the kaldorei leadership. Even in Shadowlands, during Sylvanas' trial, Maiev was still the only night elf who looked intimidating as you couldn't see her face. You only had the owl-looking helmet of her's, looking at Sylvanas.
    I do favor Mordent not being part of the leadership because we've got the key Warcraft 3 night elf characters who make up the leadership. Yes, I don't like Tyrande, but tough.


    I also give praise to the Farstriders because they were defending Quel'Thalas before Rommath returned; however try as they did, the Farstriders were not gaining ground fast and it wasn't until the Magisters returned with their knowledge from Illidan, where the tables turned and Eversong was reclaimed by the Sin'dorei. To make it clear, using fel magic wasn't the answer to this. The Magisters were still drawing upon the Arcane (in various forms ofc) as it has been confirmed that only a small portion of the Sin'dorei populace actually joined the Sanctum Guild and became Warlocks. Fel radiation is what turned their eyes green. Not using fel magic directly.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2022-08-04 at 08:33 AM.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    A lot of waffle and not much said.
    You have an elf issue.. and it's a weird one. Because it is almost entirely arcane complex focused, and against night elves who are rivals/enemies of blood elves for the TBC era Warcraft fans onwards.

    I mean your horde superiority cravings isn't that odd, it is understandable, it's what blizzard fostered within it's community.

    But you should be smart enough to see beyond it if you are such a big blood elf fan, night elven arcane mastery shouldn't irritate you or be such a big deal, in fact you should see beyond horde/alliance rivalry , and realise your blood elves come from night elves, and should be proud of all the Highborne and arcane accomplishments of the night elves, not try to severely diminish them.

    You seem to have a massive issues with night elves been good at anything you love about the blood elves. This includes civilization, arcane magic, and power - it is why you are quite content for night elves to only have a forest side, a feral side, no civilization (and if they do, purely rural), no arcane magic and no power. - because you feel them having so, threatens the blood elves - only a fanatic thinks like that. Night elves and blood elves aren't real, it's fantasy, even their rivalry is superficial in this setting and doesn't make half as much sense until you consider that developers wanted horde and alliance players to unilaterally hate the other faction - but there intention was not for the fans to hate each other -

    The undermining should be strictly in character, not out of it.

  14. #554
    There should have been at least a third Alliance in Kalimdor, with an additionnal Horde race in the Eastern Kingdoms (possibly the Revantusk Trolls as an allied race or an Ogre clan) to help balance better the Horde here.

    Maybe the Arakkoas after moving from the Outland all the way to Stonetalon Mountain, due to the similarities with their old homeland of Arak, or Feralas.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You have an elf issue.. and it's a weird one. Because it is almost entirely arcane complex focused, and against night elves who are rivals/enemies of blood elves for the TBC era Warcraft fans onwards.

    I mean your horde superiority cravings isn't that odd, it is understandable, it's what blizzard fostered within it's community.

    But you should be smart enough to see beyond it if you are such a big blood elf fan, night elven arcane mastery shouldn't irritate you or be such a big deal, in fact you should see beyond horde/alliance rivalry , and realise your blood elves come from night elves, and should be proud of all the Highborne and arcane accomplishments of the night elves, not try to severely diminish them.

    You seem to have a massive issues with night elves been good at anything you love about the blood elves. This includes civilization, arcane magic, and power - it is why you are quite content for night elves to only have a forest side, a feral side, no civilization (and if they do, purely rural), no arcane magic and no power. - because you feel them having so, threatens the blood elves - only a fanatic thinks like that. Night elves and blood elves aren't real, it's fantasy, even their rivalry is superficial in this setting and doesn't make half as much sense until you consider that developers wanted horde and alliance players to unilaterally hate the other faction - but there intention was not for the fans to hate each other -

    The undermining should be strictly in character, not out of it.
    And you completely miss the parts regarding the Wardens and Maiev Shadowsong because she doesn't relate to Night Elf Arcane stuff. Read what I have said. The best elite Kaldorei defenders ever.

    And I don't see how I can praise things where their is no evidence in the lore.

    The biggest known accomplishment of the Shen'dralar is that they weren't corrupted by the fel nor did they show any signs of fel corruption. Yes, they wielded it and had to wean themselves off it once the Horde exiled them, but unlike Orcs, Blood Elves, Draenei and Nightborne - they were no visible signs of fel corruption. That is an accomplishment.
    Now they had to wean themselves off it, so fel - like for everyone else, had an impact on them and not in a good way.

    The Highborne as a whole created a huge empire, but this wasn't down to this one group in Dire Maul. We have no evidence because "revered" appears so much during that era for Eldre'Thalas, Vashj'ir, Suramar - whereas in Zin-Azshari, we see the word "Elite" used. Personally, I put "elite" above "revered."

  16. #556
    Also realistically there should be not just one Supreme Commander, but at least two, one for the Eastern Kingdoms and another one for Kalimdor just like how the Allies had one supreme commander for each major front during WW2 because of the geographical distances, and strategic, logistical and geographical differences between the European-African front in the west and the Asia-Pacific one.

    These supreme commanders, like Lothar and Turalyon during the Second War, shouldn't be racial and political leaders, one of the greastest mistakes with the High King title, to not imply that the Alliance is ruled by one king or queen.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    ...
    I have to say it.
    They change actress...
    In other Games has another actress.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    whereas in Zin-Azshari, we see the word "Elite" used. Personally, I put "elite" above "revered."
    Yes, but the Elite highborne are now Satyrs or nagas. Non of those Elite Mages survived the WOTA, no as an elf they all become something elf. Some before the event some after.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    Yes, but the Elite highborne are now Satyrs or nagas. Non of those Elite Mages survived the WOTA, no as an elf they all become something elf. Some before the event some after.
    But we're talking about that very specific period in time, before the Zin-Azshari Elite became Naga, satyr and High Elves.

    They were considered the "Elite."

    The Shen'dralar, the Highborne of Suramar, the Highborne of Vashj'ir as well as those in the North were all powerful in their own rights hence why they were "revered." But "revered" doesn't seem to carry that same emphasis as "Elite" does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I have to say it.
    They change actress...
    In other Games has another actress.
    They can't replace Maiev's actress. Giving her a new voice would ruin her like it ruined Kael'thas.

    It saddens me that they won't use Maiev as much, but she has a legacy that I love.
    Maiev was the character on the Legion front-page that I was most excited about.

  20. #560
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They can't replace Maiev's actress. Giving her a new voice would ruin her like it ruined Kael'thas.

    It saddens me that they won't use Maiev as much, but she has a legacy that I love.
    Maiev was the character on the Legion front-page that I was most excited about.
    I barely noticed Kael'thas had a new VA - I probably wouldn't have at all if it hadn't been part of a small controversy that prompted a lot of conversation. Several marquee WoW NPC's have had quite a few VA's in their time: Sylvanas has had two I know of, and Debi Mae West even changed Maiev's accent between WC3: TFT and Legion, removing the previous Irish lilt she put into the voice-acting.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

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