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  1. #641
    Stormwind kings should have their own advisors, not other leaders of the Alliance, and the kingdom should have its own game of thrones, same for other human kingdoms, the dwarves, gnomes and even the elves with no leadership being uncontested or the opponents being agents of the Burning Legion or of the Old Gods.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by edw View Post
    No, it started with the racials that went unfixed for several expansions, more and more people moved to Horde, most people that moved were good active players, that wanted to max out there potential. After this another wave of people left, a huge wave, because they couldn't find active players, good players, this wave also killed whatever was left of Alliance.

    This is the fault of Blizzard, it's there game, if they refused to acknowledge the huge problem that was build up ... then good riddance, they can now call it World of Horde, pretty sad. And they are confused why so many left and are not coming back.
    It wasn't refusing to acknowledge it, it was putting short term profits ahead of long term.

    Let's say there's a player, Ralph, who decides to transfer, perhaps for performance, perhaps for more active groups. It's reasonable to expect that Ralph has a few alts, so let's say he transfers one or two, the really progressed ones. Now, others might transfer their entire roster, but those will likely not be the normal case. At thirty USD for a transfer, Blizzard makes $90 USD, which is more than six month's subscription fees from Ralph.

    It's not too hard to imagine entire raids transferring just like Ralph did, with two or three characters each. Depending on the time period, a raid might consist of 15 to 30 players, likely far more, particularly if it's a guild transfer. Thus, at three characters each, our hypothetical raid nets Blizzard $1350 to $2700.


    Now, this of course is estimates and frankly, erring on the side of underestimating, but anyone should easily see that the faction imbalance has been insanely profitable, which is why it wasn't addressed until they felt the avalanche was trickling to a halt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #643
    Pandaren Monk Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    This is a lore forum, so keep your debates focused on the storyline aspects rather than discussing company profits.
    Will of the First Ones is not to be questioned!

  4. #644
    Nothing.
    The alliance is boring as a concept, and rely on blizzard giving them every little dream they possess to bolster the numbers of their playerbase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edw View Post
    No, it started with the racials that went unfixed for several expansions, more and more people moved to Horde, most people that moved were good active players, that wanted to max out there potential. After this another wave of people left, a huge wave, because they couldn't find active players, good players, this wave also killed whatever was left of Alliance.

    This is the fault of Blizzard, it's there game, if they refused to acknowledge the huge problem that was build up ... then good riddance, they can now call it World of Horde, pretty sad. And they are confused why so many left and are not coming back.
    Alliance have always had better pve racials than horde, though (and still do)
    Troll beastslaying wasn't the reason people went horde.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Built on the native of whom used to originally own the lands. Your attitude is typical for the forum and part of the reason why it is so toxic.
    The trolls themselves were an expansionist empire; they originally held no lands in the region of Dun Morogh, Zul'Drak, Zul'Aman or Zul'Farak; they expanded upon those from Zandalar and scattered but minor holdings only after the Zandalari almost fucked up the entire planet by awakening the C'thrax and Aqir. Someone probably lived there when they displaced them while chasing the Aqir who were there long before the trolls. Stormwing btw is not on troll lands; they did attempt to expand into Stranglethron but where thoroughly rebuffed by the forced of Zul'gurub. The frost trolls in Dun Morogh were a colony; it's not like the dwarves were displacing them from ancient and ancestral lands (those would be in Zul'drak).

    Heck even the night elves did not really displace the trolls; the Kaldorei empire did not take over Troll holdings they just expanded on land close to the trolls but lands the trolls did not in any way control themselves (and they are descendands of trolls so if anything, it would be a troll offshoot displacing other trolls). The only ones who truly displaced locals from an ancestral land are the High Elves taking over sacred troll lands (who are part of the Horde now) and the Warsong taking over sacred elven lands. The dwarves have tried to claim lands that the tauraho also claim (whether it is ancestral and reclaimed by the centaur or simply land they claimed first is a different issue) but I don't think they were successful?

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    the time to do something for Alliance is over, since a good while. here is why:

    years (many) ago, Blizz had the chance to make the Alliance racials same good as the Horde ones. but they did not. the resulting effect was: many (also new or returning) people joined the Horde. even if Blizz would had changed it years later and gave Alliance better racials than Horde, it had changed nothing, because:

    after a while Horde was the dominating faction (cause of above reason). most ppl, even when not interessted in min/maxing and therefore not care about racials, joined the Horde. because „there are the…“

    - „…bigger servers“
    - „…better players“
    - „…the most ppls. all ppl play Horde, so do i.“

    regardless how true or not this is, it’s in the mind of players. if you are new to wow, you look left and right and do what the majority does. and this leaded to an effect Blizz can not turn back.

    so, imo, the simple truth is: Blizz missed the moment, when they still had the chance to turn things. after that moment it’s no more possible. because if they want to turn it back later, they had to make Alliance racials that absurd overpowered, to make many ppls leave Horde, just for that. after a while they can balance it again and have 50/50 factions then. but till this point they have to absurdly overpower Alliance. and this is something Blizz just can not do balance wise.

    or in other words: what do you think Blizz can do in such an absurd size (regardless if attracting in values, dps, size, design, story, or whatever), so ppls embedded in the Horde faction would turn to Alliance, WITHOUT completely sacrificing balance (in value, dps, style, design, story or whatever) between the factions for a while? Blizz HAS to imbalance the factions, in an absurd way, to achieve this. and they will not do this.

    result: they missed the moment and there is no turning back.
    Remember when they randomly nerfed Every Man for Himself in Legion to shit on the only niche racial Alliance had?

    Thematically, the Alliance has always been underutilized. From the POV of humans WoW is a post apocalyptic setting. Humanity was basically reduced to Stormwind, its colonies and Kul Tiras while being beleaguered from all sides. This was never properly reflected in the world building apart from Classic. Didn't help that the more interesting factions like the Scarlet Crusade immediately got wiped out every time they played a role in the story. The appeal of the Alliance was further weakened because Blizzard turned a lot of their iconic subfactions and characters into neutrals in order to further cater to Horde players.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Remember when they randomly nerfed Every Man for Himself in Legion to shit on the only niche racial Alliance had?

    Thematically, the Alliance has always been underutilized. From the POV of humans WoW is a post apocalyptic setting. Humanity was basically reduced to Stormwind, its colonies and Kul Tiras while being beleaguered from all sides. This was never properly reflected in the world building apart from Classic. Didn't help that the more interesting factions like the Scarlet Crusade immediately got wiped out every time they played a role in the story. The appeal of the Alliance was further weakened because Blizzard turned a lot of their iconic subfactions and characters into neutrals in order to further cater to Horde players.
    recall that they nerfed wotf at the same time because, lol double cc removal trinket?

    and yes thanks for admitting that the alliance are colonizers.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    recall that they nerfed wotf at the same time because, lol double cc removal trinket?

    and yes thanks for admitting that the alliance are colonizers.
    Lakeshire, Darkshire, Westfall are simply referred to as colonies in game. That has zero to do with being "colonizers" which refers to the modern system of colonialism. The comparison is asinine.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Also I wouldn't make humans, even those of Dalaran, the main mages and warlocks for every situation. Dwarven, elven, gnomish and draenei magi should have their own moments to shine and show their power and usefulness.

    Also there should be some specificities and unique qualities and flaws for each race in terms of magic mastery, knowledge and specializations.
    Yeh. The alliance far too human is and does everything. While everyone else fills a niche to support humans rather than feeling like their own people which they were when they were originally produced.

    Eg. Night elves got progenies holed into tree huggers Druids only - they forgot about their apriesthood order of Elune, their hunters, their mages and arcane side, and their demon hunters. Oh these were all there but you only saw night elves play important roles as Druids not as priests, mages, hunters or DHs - till much later.

    Draenei played the priest role supplementing humans, so we didn’t see night elf priesthood or much of the dwarves etc. and then didn’t see Draenei shamanism or magecraft - despite the latter in particular being huge part of them and their technology - but outside their introduction and back lore you see little to nothing. Almost always showing up as priests for alliance stuff. Often behind humans.


    This is the problem. Also they don’t really do much for the races in particular outside their introduction. They treat the alliance like it is one race. A human race. Which doesn’t help either. It makes the world feel boring, less interesting and gimmicky. Plus you don’t explore anything.


    Every race has several interests, several areas of expertise. They also have competing interests, internal conflicts and differences of opinions within themselves.

    In a wider society, this lends itself to all kinds of interesting interactions.

    Draenei technology should be an issue, we should see much more nuance with the Eredar, blood elves and night elves too.

    Surely they can’t react to all alliance races the same way. How about humans either having an awe and wonder approach to them or fear and terror with some perceiving them as near angelic and others demons.

    Some night elves should still struggle to see them as not the same Eredar that came with the Legion when their civilisation was destroyed. While others embrace them.

    But the story is so human focused we see nothing.

    Every alliance race interacts only with humans. And they just use them as NPV substitutes and ignore them while the alliance story is entirely how humans do this or that.

    It’s been changing recently. But even now, Tyrande is really a side story compared to say Jaina or Sylvanas. And where is Velen or Gelbin? Genn plays a lot, but then he is human too.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Lakeshire, Darkshire, Westfall are simply referred to as colonies in game. That has zero to do with being "colonizers" which refers to the modern system of colonialism. The comparison is asinine.
    ah, not very well versed in the lore, are we?

    did you know that south of dun morogh were troll lands?

    mutant titanic offspring murdering local populations sounds pretty much like manifest destiny tbh

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    ah, not very well versed in the lore, are we?

    did you know that south of dun morogh were troll lands?

    mutant titanic offspring murdering local populations sounds pretty much like manifest destiny tbh
    Poor Hakkar-worshipping Gurubashi trolls got their asses handed to them by a defensive Kingdom of Stormwind. Sad story.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    recall that they nerfed wotf at the same time because, lol double cc removal trinket?

    and yes thanks for admitting that the alliance are colonizers.
    Yes, they made colonies. And of course they came into conflict with the local fauna. But they didn't subdue any races under them. In fact humanity on WoW spread organically, and there weren't any challenges to them until the orcs came through the portal. You had trolls to the south in ZG and north in ZA, but they spread over the rest of the EK uncontested. And they befriended the Elves in the north. The dwarves/earthen were "hibernating" to lick their wounds. And gnomes didn't travel outside Gnomeregan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Poor Hakkar-worshipping Gurubashi trolls got their asses handed to them by a defensive Kingdom of Stormwind. Sad story.
    This never happened. The northern EK were settled first and they spread south. They fought alongside the elves and reduced the trolls to only ZA. The humans never fought against ZG before world of warcraft.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Yes, they made colonies. And of course they came into conflict with the local fauna. But they didn't subdue any races under them. In fact humanity on WoW spread organically, and there weren't any challenges to them until the orcs came through the portal. You had trolls to the south in ZG and north in ZA, but they spread over the rest of the EK uncontested. And they befriended the Elves in the north. The dwarves/earthen were "hibernating" to lick their wounds. And gnomes didn't travel outside Gnomeregan.

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    This never happened. The northern EK were settled first and they spread south. They fought alongside the elves and reduced the trolls to only ZA. The humans never fought against ZG before world of warcraft.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gurubashi_War

    lol ok

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Fair enough, but they weren't summoning Hakkar, and the humans didn't "colonize" them.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    This never happened. The northern EK were settled first and they spread south. They fought alongside the elves and reduced the trolls to only ZA. The humans never fought against ZG before world of warcraft.
    I think the Gurubashi War is something they retconned in with Chronicles. Don't remember any mention of such an event in Classic. Back then it was only mentioned that humans wanted to establish trade there and were chased out by the trolls.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    the humans didn't "colonize" them.
    Yeah they wiped them out as they spread their nations, every last piece of land the humans have today was troll land. Humans did pretty much what the orcs intended to do during the first war, just slower.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think the Gurubashi War is something they retconned in with Chronicles. Don't remember any mention of such an event in Classic. Back then it was only mentioned that humans wanted to establish trade there and were chased out by the trolls.
    yeah thats how colonizer history works

  18. #658
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread isn't about trolls or the various human/troll wars that have occurred - it's about the Alliance and ways to improve its standing and/or make it more popular. Let's pivot back to the actual topic of the thread.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread isn't about trolls or the various human/troll wars that have occurred - it's about the Alliance and ways to improve its standing and/or make it more popular. Let's pivot back to the actual topic of the thread.
    i mean if handouts won't work, what will?
    if you don't get a dwarf faction change tryhard from the alliance you're getting a worse group. atp i don't even get mad at "horde only" groups cus whew

    just dissolve them atp
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2022-08-23 at 08:42 PM.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah they wiped them out as they spread their nations, every last piece of land the humans have today was troll land. Humans did pretty much what the orcs intended to do during the first war, just slower.
    There's no mention of that anywhere. The lore is the humans settled in northern EK and didn't fight trolls on a massive scale until the elves asked for assistance. And when the troll wars ended, the humans moved into territory that they had rightfully won as spoils of war. They didn't colonize the trolls, the defeated them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread isn't about trolls or the various human/troll wars that have occurred - it's about the Alliance and ways to improve its standing and/or make it more popular. Let's pivot back to the actual topic of the thread.
    Didnt see this until after my last post. But they were supposing that Humans are evil because of some equivalency to real world colonialism, and that isn't the case.

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