What are the best ways to make the Alliance more popular and interesting?

[Nyel]

its also pretty crazy that the alliance isn't seen as militaristic when stormwind has legions of soldiers and war machines just parked up

During Anduin's reign it obviously was just decoration.

[Kehego]

During Anduin's reign it obviously was just decoration.

I mean anduin did lead an assault on a horde capital city, reasons nonwithstanding

don't get me wrong, I don't *mind* a faction being warlike... I mind a faction being warlike and pretending that it isn't.

Like, let's take for instance stormheim in legion. Greymane's assault on sylvanas yada yada yada. That's all "fine" until people start to justify what he did in hindsight to paint them as non-aggressors. If you're warlike and aggressive that's fine, wear it with honour.

very "search for weapons of mass destruction" tbqh

[Myradin]

eh it matters because its crazy that colonizers are now the "peaceful" ones
like the horde and the alliance are just as bloodthirsty as each other, difference being that the way one is portrayed gives them... character.

The difference is the horde did this during the last 30 years, the games have been about it, and the horde still has people who are part of it who were the perpetrators.

The Alliance was as bloodthirsty as the horde centuries ago. The alliance members who were alive then weren't part of the alliance. The alliance has been portrayed as largely having moved past this era, now defending its lands against outside invaders.

Also the Horde has aligned itself with universe-destroying threats not one, not twice, but three times. Meanwhile the ancient alliance just fights over land and resources so they can you know, survive and prosper.

its also pretty crazy that the alliance isn't seen as militaristic when stormwind has legions of soldiers and war machines just parked up

Because the alliance uses it defensively.

[Kehego]

The difference is the horde did this during the last 30 years, the games have been about it, and the horde still has people who are part of it who were the perpetrators.

The Alliance was as bloodthirsty as the horde centuries ago. The alliance members who were alive then weren't part of the alliance. The alliance has been portrayed as largely having moved past this era, now defending its lands against outside invaders.

Also the Horde has aligned itself with universe-destroying threats not one, not twice, but three times. Meanwhile the ancient alliance just fights over land and resources so they can you know, survive and prosper.



Because the alliance uses it defensively.

Camp taurajo and the southern barrens was defensively? crazy.

What were most of the alliance quests about btw?
either subjugating locals (gnolls/troggs/trolls) or killing people they refused to pay (defias)

and please don't say ancient alliance because the menethil bloodline was part of the grand alliance


wait wait wait, you saying that the alliance assaulting dazar'alor was defensively, too?

damn. I didn't know dazar'alor was an alliance city.

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Oh also, espionage is counted as an act of aggression by modern standards

I wonder which faction has a robust spy network canonically acknowledged by both factions?

[Combatbutler]

This thread isn't about trolls or the various human/troll wars that have occurred - it's about the Alliance and ways to improve its standing and/or make it more popular. Let's pivot back to the actual topic of the thread.

These things go hand in hand though, the Alliance is pretty much a bunch of established races that waded through blood to get to where they are today, if you cast away the beginning of these races and the baggage such an origin brings, you neuter the foundation, you basically destroy generational grudges, vendettas, schemes etc.

One of the many reasons the Alliance just feels hollow is because it lacks substance, be it internal politics ,ambitions, values etc.

I think this thread is sort of running out of things to discuss though. The problem is the alliance doesn't really embrace its diversity as a faction. Its humans and their buddies. It doesnt feel like an alliance due to the high king. Instead of relying on the specializations of its allies, humans always seem to be the ones in charge of everything. Its subfactions get along too perfectly. It forgives the horde too easily.

Everyone who doesn't conform to the alliance as it is either turns evil swiftly or drinks the koolaid.

The Alliance is flat because it basically lacks a solid foundation and soul, its tenets ring hollow and its people are superficial at best, they need character, flaws and motivations galore, there should be no unquestionable unity, each member should have their own concerns, just overlapping in the overall sense of defense or maybe expansion, not to mention the focus is utterly broken, humans chew up so much screentime, the rest of the Alliance might not even exist. During some cutscenes they literally don't or pretty much say nothing.

Honestly how humans got their lands in the past is largely irrelevant to humans not being interesting now. No human alive was there for it.

It is interesting because it adds ambiguity, whats the point of humans getting the land squeaky clean? It adds weight to generational conflict, a human asking a troll why he would set his village on fire to drive them out? Despite the fact they never hurt anyone, with the troll replying he was just retaking what humans have taken from them so very long ago.

It is no longer a one sided conflict, the humans who live there are innocent, but yet they prospers on fertile land in the wake of the actions of their ancestors.

It is a theme that is played out in the Alliance as a whole, with troggs in Kul'tiras, dwarves with the ice trolls of dun morogh.

This is how the world looked like before the trolls cousins decided to build their empire and they can lay claim to each and every bit.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tro..._Chronicle.jpg

[Aucald]

If we were to take "conflict" as the primary factor that makes a faction popular or interesting, the following would probably be my ultimate power fantasy for the Alliance as a faction. During the time skip of Dragonflight, Malfurion and Tyrande take more and more essential control of the Alliance while Turalyon shoulders on as High King, but only as Anduin's regent and thus a figurehead. With the Horde distracted by internal politicking and spread thin as a matter of course, the two Kaldorei leaders engineer a surprise attack on Orgrimmar itself using the combined forces of the Kaldorei, the Gilneans (spoiling for a chance to avenge themselves for the loss of their own lands), as well as the Lightforged Draenei (using the simmering hatreds of the First War combined with their Legion-associated past). Largely undefended and open to attack, Orgrimmar is sacked, and Malfurion takes that moment to plant the Sisters' Seed in Orgimmar proper - rapidly creating a new World Tree named Alashdrassil (the Crown of Strife) which consumes the remains of Orgrimmar and turns the majority of Durotar itself into a deep forest reminiscent of a darkened version of Ardenweald.

Effectively exiled from their own lands, the remaining Horde bastions of Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles steel themselves for a renewed strife, and the Orcs specifically are forced to weigh their own responsibility for the Horde's actions under Sylvanas, as well as the legacy of their past as aggressors. In that way, not only is conflict renewed across Azeroth, but internal conflict reigns internally in the factions themselves - from those in the Horde who accept the Night Elves' action as recompense for their role in Teldrassil's destruction, to those who do not accept such appeasement and desire to ignite a new and conclusive war for supremacy. Similarly, the Alliance is at a crossroads as the Night Elves and its allies have split the Alliance base in half - from those who are finally vindicated against their long-time enemies in the Horde, to those who are disgusted and horrified at the spark of a Fifth War that could spell doom for everyone.

[Biomega]

Because the alliance uses it defensively.

Oh come on.

The Alliance started the entire war from BFA. They struck first. I suppose you'll argue that was acting "defensively", too, because they had to do a preemptive strike against the Azerite mining efforts? Then you can justify ANYTHING like that, and all you're doing is a holier-than-thou routine by pretending that when others attack you they're being aggressors, but when you attack them first you're only doing it "defensively".

That's really the Alliance's main problem - they are treated with this inherent "good guy" image that puts all they do into a righteous perspective, even when it very clearly isn't. Which makes them look hypocritical and pathetic far more than it makes them look heroic. And it also makes them incredibly boring, because they obfuscate their motivations with this dance of irresponsibility, and prevent you from actually ever wanting to, you know, root for their side.

[Combatbutler]

If we were to take "conflict" as the primary factor that makes a faction popular or interesting, the following would probably be my ultimate power fantasy for the Alliance as a faction. During the time skip of Dragonflight, Malfurion and Tyrande take more and more essential control of the Alliance while Turalyon shoulders on as High King, but only as Anduin's regent and thus a figurehead. With the Horde distracted by internal politicking and spread thin as a matter of course, the two Kaldorei leaders engineer a surprise attack on Orgrimmar itself using the combined forces of the Kaldorei, the Gilneans (spoiling for a chance to avenge themselves for the loss of their own lands), as well as the Lightforged Draenei (using the simmering hatreds of the First War combined with their Legion-associated past). Largely undefended and open to attack, Orgrimmar is sacked, and Malfurion takes that moment to plant the Sisters' Seed in Orgimmar proper - rapidly creating a new World Tree named Alashdrassil (the Crown of Strife) which consumes the remains of Orgrimmar and turns the majority of Durotar itself into a deep forest reminiscent of a darkened version of Ardenweald.

Effectively exiled from their own lands, the remaining Horde bastions of Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles steel themselves for a renewed strife, and the Orcs specifically are forced to weigh their own responsibility for the Horde's actions under Sylvanas, as well as the legacy of their past as aggressors. In that way, not only is conflict renewed across Azeroth, but internal conflict reigns internally in the factions themselves - from those in the Horde who accept the Night Elves' action as recompense for their role in Teldrassil's destruction, to those who do not accept such appeasement and desire to ignite a new and conclusive war for supremacy. Similarly, the Alliance is at a crossroads as the Night Elves and its allies have split the Alliance base in half - from those who are finally vindicated against their long-time enemies in the Horde, to those who are disgusted and horrified at the spark of a Fifth War that could spell doom for everyone.

Power comes in myriad forms, because ultimately everything is power, whether it is political, wealth, strength of arms, knowledge etc. This would certainly be a step in the right direction, but it wouldn't nearly be enough. This is pretty much just a flip of the typical horde story-line, which is equally flat as the Alliance one for different reasons, what the factions really need is identity, every fist pump moment for a faction needs to actually resonate in some way or form.

It would play in the new generational conflict between orcs and night elves, but the story needs more depth, to actually produce something interesting.

[Kehego]

If we were to take "conflict" as the primary factor that makes a faction popular or interesting, the following would probably be my ultimate power fantasy for the Alliance as a faction. During the time skip of Dragonflight, Malfurion and Tyrande take more and more essential control of the Alliance while Turalyon shoulders on as High King, but only as Anduin's regent and thus a figurehead. With the Horde distracted by internal politicking and spread thin as a matter of course, the two Kaldorei leaders engineer a surprise attack on Orgrimmar itself using the combined forces of the Kaldorei, the Gilneans (spoiling for a chance to avenge themselves for the loss of their own lands), as well as the Lightforged Draenei (using the simmering hatreds of the First War combined with their Legion-associated past). Largely undefended and open to attack, Orgrimmar is sacked, and Malfurion takes that moment to plant the Sisters' Seed in Orgimmar proper - rapidly creating a new World Tree named Alashdrassil (the Crown of Strife) which consumes the remains of Orgrimmar and turns the majority of Durotar itself into a deep forest reminiscent of a darkened version of Ardenweald.

Effectively exiled from their own lands, the remaining Horde bastions of Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles steel themselves for a renewed strife, and the Orcs specifically are forced to weigh their own responsibility for the Horde's actions under Sylvanas, as well as the legacy of their past as aggressors. In that way, not only is conflict renewed across Azeroth, but internal conflict reigns internally in the factions themselves - from those in the Horde who accept the Night Elves' action as recompense for their role in Teldrassil's destruction, to those who do not accept such appeasement and desire to ignite a new and conclusive war for supremacy. Similarly, the Alliance is at a crossroads as the Night Elves and its allies have split the Alliance base in half - from those who are finally vindicated against their long-time enemies in the Horde, to those who are disgusted and horrified at the spark of a Fifth War that could spell doom for everyone.

Conflict doesn't necessarily mean war with other factions, mind you
But the fact that there's no politics/drama in the alliance is just baffling.

You mean to tell me that a hegemony of 8 races at this point? 10? just follow anduin blindly without any wants/desires of their own? Tyrande did her little night warrior thing and that *should've* been the alliance's main narrative for a bit, not just a one time scenario, lol

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Oh come on.

The Alliance started the entire war from BFA. They struck first. I suppose you'll argue that was acting "defensively", too, because they had to do a preemptive strike against the Azerite mining efforts? Then you can justify ANYTHING like that, and all you're doing is a holier-than-thou routine by pretending that when others attack you they're being aggressors, but when you attack them first you're only doing it "defensively".

That's really the Alliance's main problem - they are treated with this inherent "good guy" image that puts all they do into a righteous perspective, even when it very clearly isn't. Which makes them look hypocritical and pathetic far more than it makes them look heroic. And it also makes them incredibly boring, because they obfuscate their motivations with this dance of irresponsibility, and prevent you from actually ever wanting to, you know, root for their side.

Alliance lore supporters are borderline nationalists, tbh.
Like how do you not see that SI:7 was the catalyst for the entire conflict?

[Nerovar]

Like how do you not see that SI:7 was the catalyst for the entire conflict?

Nice conspiracy theory.

[Varodoc]

The Alliance should be more militaristic and less "peace and love". The Alliance should be ruled by Tyrande and Genn and not by the Stormwind fools (after Varian died everything went downhill there). Give Tyrande the lead over Kalimdor and Genn over Eastern Kingdoms and the Alliance maybe can shine again. Anduin was the biggest blow to the Alliance ever, he was and still is an utter joke of a King. Thank god he is not part of Dragonflight (as of now).

The problem is that, when the Alliance finally bites back, you will never hear the end of it online from the opposing side.

Just look at how, in this very thread, the Alliance is still getting complaints about that insignificant, tiny, worthless little camp in the middle of a wasteland, which was burned more than 10 years ago.

The Alliance will remain the lawful stupid good guys, that's the image they are stuck with sadly.

Fun Fact: Baine Bloodhoof once stated that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target and thus the Alliance did nothing wrong there. He also exiled those tauren who did not understand this, proving that they were blinded by vengeance and dangerous. So Blizzard would disagree with these complaints from the community about Camp Taurajo: the Alliance really did nothing wrong there.

[Kehego]

Nice conspiracy theory.

I dunno I read the book where SI:7 was spying and interfering with goblins minding their business
btw nice avatar garithos did nothing wrong etc etc

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The problem is that, when the Alliance finally bites back, you will never hear the end of it from Horde players.

Just look how, in this very thread, they are still complaining about that insignificant, tiny, worthless little camp in the middle of a wasteland, which was burned more than 10 years ago.

The Alliance will remain the lawful stupid good guys, because Horde players can't handle an Alliance that actually fights back on even ground.

The alliance *doesn't* fight on even ground
they try to assassinate kings and run away afterwards. anyway thank the alliance good boy plot armour that mekkatorque and jaina lived, I guess.

[Varodoc]

I dunno I read the book where SI:7 was spying and interfering with goblins minding their business
btw nice avatar garithos did nothing wrong etc etc

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The alliance *doesn't* fight on even ground
they try to assassinate kings and run away afterwards. anyway thank the alliance good boy plot armour that mekkatorque and jaina lived, I guess.

"Try"? Why use that word? Last I checked, they indeed succeeded in assassinating King Rastakhan. Or did I miss some spoiler or datamined material?

Perhaps it would be better if the Alliance just said "fuck it, I'm going to nuke the Horde and be done with it. To hell with all of them", instead of constantly playing the good boys and only going after their kings and military officers. But then again, they are the good faction after all, they can't be allowed to be "too ruthless".

[Aucald]

Power comes in myriad forms, because ultimately everything is power, whether it is political, wealth, strength of arms, knowledge etc. This would certainly be a step in the right direction, but it wouldn't nearly be enough. This is pretty much just a flip of the typical horde story-line, which is equally flat as the Alliance one for different reasons, what the factions really need is identity, every fist pump moment for a faction needs to actually resonate in some way or form.

It would play in the new generational conflict between orcs and night elves, but the story needs more depth, to actually produce something interesting.

I think it goes a bit beyond just the typical reversal of the Horde/Alliance dynamic because unlike the Horde's many aggressive actions throughout WoW's history (e.g. Theramore and Teldrassil) the Night Elves' sacking of Orgrimmar and using it as the genesis for a new kingdom could be argued to be justified, since it is both reparation for what the Horde took from them, as well as justice done to correct a serious and long-standing grievance. It would offer up a renaissance of power and influence for an underdeveloped portion of the Alliance, while at the same time forcing the Alliance to contend with its own foibles of inaction and passivity over the past decade or so. Similar to the Horde, they are faced with the choice of allowing the Kaldorei to take well-deserved vengeance for the Horde's complicity in Sylvanas' brutal act concerning Teldrassil, or reigniting the faction war despite that.

Strong themes of both external and internal conflict give both factions the chance to develop and grow, and perhaps even shift their own demographics as certain groups grow disillusioned with the status quo, or become emboldened by conquest and vengeance.

[Kehego]

"Try"? Why use that word? Last I checked, they indeed succeeded in assassinating King Rastakhan. Or did I miss some spoiler or datamined material?

Perhaps it would be better if the Alliance just said "fuck it, I'm going to nuke the Horde and be done with it. To hell with all of them", instead of constantly playing the good boys and only going after their kings and military officers. But then again, they are the good faction after all, they can't be allowed to be "too ruthless".

the try was more in regard to the running, where we killed one of the alliance leaders and nearly killed another, barring plot devices, ofc

And baine bloodhoof is an alliance cuckold and part and parcel why noone likes the alliance.
Alliance aren't the "good" faction, they are nazis with emoji smiles instead of swastikas.

[Aucald]

But the fact that there's no politics/drama in the alliance is just baffling.

You mean to tell me that a hegemony of 8 races at this point? 10? just follow anduin blindly without any wants/desires of their own? Tyrande did her little night warrior thing and that *should've* been the alliance's main narrative for a bit, not just a one time scenario, lol

That's long been a point of contention with the Horde, as well; with many strong-willed and iconic groups seemingly moving in lock-step with an autocratic Warchief's whims. In a realistic setting where a coalition nation of many species is united in a pact for mutual protection, it is very unrealistic that Garrosh's warmongering would be celebrated or even welcomed by a majority. Ditto as well for Sylvanas' rationale for war.

[Aucald]

While you guys discuss lore reasons for the lack of balance beetween factions.

Racials and cosmetics say hello!

This isn't really the place to address perceived gameplay imbalances - WoW General Discussions has plenty of threads and conversations pertaining to those aspects of WoW.

[Kehego]

That's long been a point of contention with the Horde, as well; with many strong-willed and iconic groups seemingly moving in lock-step with an autocratic Warchief's whims. In a realistic setting where a coalition nation of many species is united in a pact for mutual protection, it is very unrealistic that Garrosh's warmongering would be celebrated or even welcomed by a majority. Ditto as well for Sylvanas' rationale for war.

No, because since the cataclysm there have been many internal conflicts in the horde. Garrosh and vol'jin had a whole civil war, or did we forget?

And even in wotlk the horde disagreed with the actions of thrall often, the UC could've been an entire third faction easily.

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Like literally the first quest in silverpine forest has garrosh calling sylvanas a bitch

[Biomega]

While you guys discuss lore reasons for the lack of balance beetween factions.

Racials and cosmetics say hello!

Well this IS the Lore sub-forum here, so...

Also: Alliance racials have been better, on the whole, for quite some time. It's not the answer.

[Eosia]

The Alliance is flat because it basically lacks a solid foundation and soul, its tenets ring hollow and its people are superficial at best, they need character, flaws and motivations galore, there should be no unquestionable unity, each member should have their own concerns, just overlapping in the overall sense of defense or maybe expansion, not to mention the focus is utterly broken, humans chew up so much screentime, the rest of the Alliance might not even exist. During some cutscenes they literally don't or pretty much say nothing.

You hit the nail on the head here I think. While Anduin is having kind of a moral crisis right now because of the events that occurred while he was under the control of Zovaal, it's still happening behind the scenes. We're not really seeing the consequences of it in-game at the moment beyond the scene with Sylvanas in the Maw.

Really the closest the Alliance has come with actual character development, flaws, and such is Tyrande and Genn. Problem is, while story-wise they're linked together with the Night Elf druids coming to the assistance of the Worgen and giving them sanctuary in Darnassus, their issues are also linked together.... revenge against the Forsaken to a degree but centered on Sylvanas.

But we don't see any real issues coming out of Ironforge or Stormwind at the moment with those faction leaders. They've done more with the faction leaders from the Allied races than the core ones (Vanilla-Cata). Jaina has had tons of development, and Alleria has come back and had a lot added to her as well. But it's all about Anduin.

Contrast that with the Horde and even when their issues have centered on Garrosh and Sylvanas, they still made it about the Horde as a whole. It wasn't just Garrosh or Sylvanas being mega-bads and the rest of the Horde wringiong their hands going "Oh No!". The other leaders, Baine, Lor'themar, and Vol'jin each rose to the occasion. They also introduce other dimensions such as Lor'themar's "divided" loyalty, for lack of a better term. After the in-game scene where you can "Stay and listen" to him talk with Genn, he mentions being torn between what Sylvanas had become versus the Ranger General he served under and who died trying to defend Quel'thalas from Arthas. All of that kind of stuff is missing from the Alliance side.

I do think there are numerous things going in with the writing team that contribute to this. First and foremost is the constant changing of hands. We had Metzen, Afrasiabi, and now Steve Denuser. Christie Golden is in there somewhere too although her presence is not really as felt as much as those others. They need to really divide the current writing team in half, and then hire more for each time to restore the numbers. Because it seems like the overall expansion stories tend to lean on the Horde doing something so it inevitably ends up being all about the Horde again. Even when it's not, the Alliance still gets neglected. Like Uldir... why did the Alliance have to go there to deal w/ G'huun story-wise? We know why the Horde had to, because of the Blood Trolls and Zul's mechanations. But why would the Alliance really even be aware of it let alone be required to deal with it?