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  1. #661
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    fair, but lorewise I don't think anything can be done because the alliance is about as interesting as boiled potatoes. Not even with salt.
    In-game (lorewise) because they've been coddled... umbric and that entire faction is a huge asspull just to appease people who won't give up on high elves, bland supporting characters

    MANDUIN

    idk my position on that still holds. Even in the dragonflight leaks the entire alliance spirit is "oh let's wait till anduin comes back"
    "mah king"

    No seasoning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I think in the complete whitewashing of the alliance through the past 15+ years of the video game and 25+ years of the franchise doesn't really offer them any way to be interesting.

    Conflict makes fantasy interesting. The alliance is a faction void of conflict. Noone cares about a good boy cuddle party. Greymane had the potential to make the alliance interesting but he's a bootlicker.
    To solve this problem, we just need to be somewhat more creative and remember that pessimism is the enemy of original thought. Simply said, both Ironforge and Gnomeragan have a ton of potential for cool features. Since the plot so far has only included the Night Elves and Humans. Even Mechagon might potentially be included as a major Alliance city. Traveling to new lands and exploring the stories of new races like the Voild Elves or Lightforged Draenei would be exciting as well.
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2022-08-23 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    So the next question I would be inclined to ask would be "what makes a faction great in your opinion from a story-based or narrative standpoint?" From the above, I gather you think the composition of the Alliance is jumbled or inconsistent, and you dislike Anduin as a character? So a valid response would be you think the Alliance could be improved by expelling the Void Elves from their ranks and taking on a new group or playable race more fitting for the faction identity. And if you think Anduin should be replaced, who do you think would be a fitting ruler of Stormwind or High King of the Alliance in his stead? Do you think Turalyon should remain in the role even if Anduin were to return, do you think another client nation's rulers should step up and lead?
    I don't think the void elves should be expelled, I think they shouldn't have been forced into the game to appease people.

    Blood elves existing is a powerful statement. Blood elves are the former allies of the grand alliance standing up to them being completely ignored in their *several* times of need. Void elves go against all of that. Void elves say that no matter what the alliance do, they'll be forgiven and have the narrative made to where they are the good guys. That's not really "interesting" int he slightest

    and no, the composition of the alliance isnt jumbled or inconsistent. its very consistent. Anduin >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything, and that the position of high king means both nothing and everything at the same time.

    I neither like nor dislike anduin as a character, because the character doesn't have any depth to like or dislike. Anduin Wrynn is a boiled chicken breast to the boiled potatoes of the alliance.

    Turalyon is an opinionless bootlicker. Think of greymane but with even less balls. I don't think it would matter who stewards the chair of stormwind because none of the potential regents have any opinions for themselves, and even less so, the narrative power to act on their own ambition.

  3. #663
    Honestly how humans got their lands in the past is largely irrelevant to humans not being interesting now. No human alive was there for it.

    I think this thread is sort of running out of things to discuss though. The problem is the alliance doesn't really embrace its diversity as a faction. Its humans and their buddies. It doesnt feel like an alliance due to the high king. Instead of relying on the specializations of its allies, humans always seem to be the ones in charge of everything. Its subfactions get along too perfectly. It forgives the horde too easily.

    Everyone who doesn't conform to the alliance as it is either turns evil swiftly or drinks the koolaid.

  4. #664
    The Alliance should be more militaristic and less "peace and love". The Alliance should be ruled by Tyrande and Genn and not by the Stormwind fools (after Varian died everything went downhill there). Give Tyrande the lead over Kalimdor and Genn over Eastern Kingdoms and the Alliance maybe can shine again. Anduin was the biggest blow to the Alliance ever, he was and still is an utter joke of a King. Thank god he is not part of Dragonflight (as of now).
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Honestly how humans got their lands in the past is largely irrelevant to humans not being interesting now. No human alive was there for it.

    I think this thread is sort of running out of things to discuss though. The problem is the alliance doesn't really embrace its diversity as a faction. Its humans and their buddies. It doesnt feel like an alliance due to the high king. Instead of relying on the specializations of its allies, humans always seem to be the ones in charge of everything. Its subfactions get along too perfectly. It forgives the horde too easily.

    Everyone who doesn't conform to the alliance as it is either turns evil swiftly or drinks the koolaid.
    eh it matters because its crazy that colonizers are now the "peaceful" ones
    like the horde and the alliance are just as bloodthirsty as each other, difference being that the way one is portrayed gives them... character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The Alliance should be more militaristic and less "peace and love". The Alliance should be ruled by Tyrande and Genn and not by the Stormwind fools (after Varian died everything went downhill there). Give Tyrande the lead over Kalimdor and Genn over Eastern Kingdoms and the Alliance maybe can shine again. Anduin was the biggest blow to the Alliance ever, he was and still is an utter joke of a King. Thank god he is not part of Dragonflight (as of now).
    its also pretty crazy that the alliance isn't seen as militaristic when stormwind has legions of soldiers and war machines just parked up

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    its also pretty crazy that the alliance isn't seen as militaristic when stormwind has legions of soldiers and war machines just parked up
    During Anduin's reign it obviously was just decoration.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    During Anduin's reign it obviously was just decoration.
    I mean anduin did lead an assault on a horde capital city, reasons nonwithstanding

    don't get me wrong, I don't *mind* a faction being warlike... I mind a faction being warlike and pretending that it isn't.

    Like, let's take for instance stormheim in legion. Greymane's assault on sylvanas yada yada yada. That's all "fine" until people start to justify what he did in hindsight to paint them as non-aggressors. If you're warlike and aggressive that's fine, wear it with honour.

    very "search for weapons of mass destruction" tbqh

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    eh it matters because its crazy that colonizers are now the "peaceful" ones
    like the horde and the alliance are just as bloodthirsty as each other, difference being that the way one is portrayed gives them... character.
    The difference is the horde did this during the last 30 years, the games have been about it, and the horde still has people who are part of it who were the perpetrators.

    The Alliance was as bloodthirsty as the horde centuries ago. The alliance members who were alive then weren't part of the alliance. The alliance has been portrayed as largely having moved past this era, now defending its lands against outside invaders.

    Also the Horde has aligned itself with universe-destroying threats not one, not twice, but three times. Meanwhile the ancient alliance just fights over land and resources so they can you know, survive and prosper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    its also pretty crazy that the alliance isn't seen as militaristic when stormwind has legions of soldiers and war machines just parked up
    Because the alliance uses it defensively.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    The difference is the horde did this during the last 30 years, the games have been about it, and the horde still has people who are part of it who were the perpetrators.

    The Alliance was as bloodthirsty as the horde centuries ago. The alliance members who were alive then weren't part of the alliance. The alliance has been portrayed as largely having moved past this era, now defending its lands against outside invaders.

    Also the Horde has aligned itself with universe-destroying threats not one, not twice, but three times. Meanwhile the ancient alliance just fights over land and resources so they can you know, survive and prosper.



    Because the alliance uses it defensively.
    Camp taurajo and the southern barrens was defensively? crazy.

    What were most of the alliance quests about btw?
    either subjugating locals (gnolls/troggs/trolls) or killing people they refused to pay (defias)

    and please don't say ancient alliance because the menethil bloodline was part of the grand alliance


    wait wait wait, you saying that the alliance assaulting dazar'alor was defensively, too?

    damn. I didn't know dazar'alor was an alliance city.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh also, espionage is counted as an act of aggression by modern standards

    I wonder which faction has a robust spy network canonically acknowledged by both factions?
    Last edited by Kehego; 2022-08-23 at 02:05 PM.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread isn't about trolls or the various human/troll wars that have occurred - it's about the Alliance and ways to improve its standing and/or make it more popular. Let's pivot back to the actual topic of the thread.
    These things go hand in hand though, the Alliance is pretty much a bunch of established races that waded through blood to get to where they are today, if you cast away the beginning of these races and the baggage such an origin brings, you neuter the foundation, you basically destroy generational grudges, vendettas, schemes etc.

    One of the many reasons the Alliance just feels hollow is because it lacks substance, be it internal politics ,ambitions, values etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post

    I think this thread is sort of running out of things to discuss though. The problem is the alliance doesn't really embrace its diversity as a faction. Its humans and their buddies. It doesnt feel like an alliance due to the high king. Instead of relying on the specializations of its allies, humans always seem to be the ones in charge of everything. Its subfactions get along too perfectly. It forgives the horde too easily.

    Everyone who doesn't conform to the alliance as it is either turns evil swiftly or drinks the koolaid.
    The Alliance is flat because it basically lacks a solid foundation and soul, its tenets ring hollow and its people are superficial at best, they need character, flaws and motivations galore, there should be no unquestionable unity, each member should have their own concerns, just overlapping in the overall sense of defense or maybe expansion, not to mention the focus is utterly broken, humans chew up so much screentime, the rest of the Alliance might not even exist. During some cutscenes they literally don't or pretty much say nothing.

    Honestly how humans got their lands in the past is largely irrelevant to humans not being interesting now. No human alive was there for it.
    It is interesting because it adds ambiguity, whats the point of humans getting the land squeaky clean? It adds weight to generational conflict, a human asking a troll why he would set his village on fire to drive them out? Despite the fact they never hurt anyone, with the troll replying he was just retaking what humans have taken from them so very long ago.

    It is no longer a one sided conflict, the humans who live there are innocent, but yet they prospers on fertile land in the wake of the actions of their ancestors.

    It is a theme that is played out in the Alliance as a whole, with troggs in Kul'tiras, dwarves with the ice trolls of dun morogh.

    This is how the world looked like before the trolls cousins decided to build their empire and they can lay claim to each and every bit.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tro..._Chronicle.jpg
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2022-08-23 at 02:12 PM.

  11. #671
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    If we were to take "conflict" as the primary factor that makes a faction popular or interesting, the following would probably be my ultimate power fantasy for the Alliance as a faction. During the time skip of Dragonflight, Malfurion and Tyrande take more and more essential control of the Alliance while Turalyon shoulders on as High King, but only as Anduin's regent and thus a figurehead. With the Horde distracted by internal politicking and spread thin as a matter of course, the two Kaldorei leaders engineer a surprise attack on Orgrimmar itself using the combined forces of the Kaldorei, the Gilneans (spoiling for a chance to avenge themselves for the loss of their own lands), as well as the Lightforged Draenei (using the simmering hatreds of the First War combined with their Legion-associated past). Largely undefended and open to attack, Orgrimmar is sacked, and Malfurion takes that moment to plant the Sisters' Seed in Orgimmar proper - rapidly creating a new World Tree named Alashdrassil (the Crown of Strife) which consumes the remains of Orgrimmar and turns the majority of Durotar itself into a deep forest reminiscent of a darkened version of Ardenweald.

    Effectively exiled from their own lands, the remaining Horde bastions of Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles steel themselves for a renewed strife, and the Orcs specifically are forced to weigh their own responsibility for the Horde's actions under Sylvanas, as well as the legacy of their past as aggressors. In that way, not only is conflict renewed across Azeroth, but internal conflict reigns internally in the factions themselves - from those in the Horde who accept the Night Elves' action as recompense for their role in Teldrassil's destruction, to those who do not accept such appeasement and desire to ignite a new and conclusive war for supremacy. Similarly, the Alliance is at a crossroads as the Night Elves and its allies have split the Alliance base in half - from those who are finally vindicated against their long-time enemies in the Horde, to those who are disgusted and horrified at the spark of a Fifth War that could spell doom for everyone.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Because the alliance uses it defensively.
    Oh come on.

    The Alliance started the entire war from BFA. They struck first. I suppose you'll argue that was acting "defensively", too, because they had to do a preemptive strike against the Azerite mining efforts? Then you can justify ANYTHING like that, and all you're doing is a holier-than-thou routine by pretending that when others attack you they're being aggressors, but when you attack them first you're only doing it "defensively".

    That's really the Alliance's main problem - they are treated with this inherent "good guy" image that puts all they do into a righteous perspective, even when it very clearly isn't. Which makes them look hypocritical and pathetic far more than it makes them look heroic. And it also makes them incredibly boring, because they obfuscate their motivations with this dance of irresponsibility, and prevent you from actually ever wanting to, you know, root for their side.

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If we were to take "conflict" as the primary factor that makes a faction popular or interesting, the following would probably be my ultimate power fantasy for the Alliance as a faction. During the time skip of Dragonflight, Malfurion and Tyrande take more and more essential control of the Alliance while Turalyon shoulders on as High King, but only as Anduin's regent and thus a figurehead. With the Horde distracted by internal politicking and spread thin as a matter of course, the two Kaldorei leaders engineer a surprise attack on Orgrimmar itself using the combined forces of the Kaldorei, the Gilneans (spoiling for a chance to avenge themselves for the loss of their own lands), as well as the Lightforged Draenei (using the simmering hatreds of the First War combined with their Legion-associated past). Largely undefended and open to attack, Orgrimmar is sacked, and Malfurion takes that moment to plant the Sisters' Seed in Orgimmar proper - rapidly creating a new World Tree named Alashdrassil (the Crown of Strife) which consumes the remains of Orgrimmar and turns the majority of Durotar itself into a deep forest reminiscent of a darkened version of Ardenweald.

    Effectively exiled from their own lands, the remaining Horde bastions of Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles steel themselves for a renewed strife, and the Orcs specifically are forced to weigh their own responsibility for the Horde's actions under Sylvanas, as well as the legacy of their past as aggressors. In that way, not only is conflict renewed across Azeroth, but internal conflict reigns internally in the factions themselves - from those in the Horde who accept the Night Elves' action as recompense for their role in Teldrassil's destruction, to those who do not accept such appeasement and desire to ignite a new and conclusive war for supremacy. Similarly, the Alliance is at a crossroads as the Night Elves and its allies have split the Alliance base in half - from those who are finally vindicated against their long-time enemies in the Horde, to those who are disgusted and horrified at the spark of a Fifth War that could spell doom for everyone.
    Power comes in myriad forms, because ultimately everything is power, whether it is political, wealth, strength of arms, knowledge etc. This would certainly be a step in the right direction, but it wouldn't nearly be enough. This is pretty much just a flip of the typical horde story-line, which is equally flat as the Alliance one for different reasons, what the factions really need is identity, every fist pump moment for a faction needs to actually resonate in some way or form.

    It would play in the new generational conflict between orcs and night elves, but the story needs more depth, to actually produce something interesting.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If we were to take "conflict" as the primary factor that makes a faction popular or interesting, the following would probably be my ultimate power fantasy for the Alliance as a faction. During the time skip of Dragonflight, Malfurion and Tyrande take more and more essential control of the Alliance while Turalyon shoulders on as High King, but only as Anduin's regent and thus a figurehead. With the Horde distracted by internal politicking and spread thin as a matter of course, the two Kaldorei leaders engineer a surprise attack on Orgrimmar itself using the combined forces of the Kaldorei, the Gilneans (spoiling for a chance to avenge themselves for the loss of their own lands), as well as the Lightforged Draenei (using the simmering hatreds of the First War combined with their Legion-associated past). Largely undefended and open to attack, Orgrimmar is sacked, and Malfurion takes that moment to plant the Sisters' Seed in Orgimmar proper - rapidly creating a new World Tree named Alashdrassil (the Crown of Strife) which consumes the remains of Orgrimmar and turns the majority of Durotar itself into a deep forest reminiscent of a darkened version of Ardenweald.

    Effectively exiled from their own lands, the remaining Horde bastions of Thunder Bluff and the Echo Isles steel themselves for a renewed strife, and the Orcs specifically are forced to weigh their own responsibility for the Horde's actions under Sylvanas, as well as the legacy of their past as aggressors. In that way, not only is conflict renewed across Azeroth, but internal conflict reigns internally in the factions themselves - from those in the Horde who accept the Night Elves' action as recompense for their role in Teldrassil's destruction, to those who do not accept such appeasement and desire to ignite a new and conclusive war for supremacy. Similarly, the Alliance is at a crossroads as the Night Elves and its allies have split the Alliance base in half - from those who are finally vindicated against their long-time enemies in the Horde, to those who are disgusted and horrified at the spark of a Fifth War that could spell doom for everyone.
    Conflict doesn't necessarily mean war with other factions, mind you
    But the fact that there's no politics/drama in the alliance is just baffling.

    You mean to tell me that a hegemony of 8 races at this point? 10? just follow anduin blindly without any wants/desires of their own? Tyrande did her little night warrior thing and that *should've* been the alliance's main narrative for a bit, not just a one time scenario, lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Oh come on.

    The Alliance started the entire war from BFA. They struck first. I suppose you'll argue that was acting "defensively", too, because they had to do a preemptive strike against the Azerite mining efforts? Then you can justify ANYTHING like that, and all you're doing is a holier-than-thou routine by pretending that when others attack you they're being aggressors, but when you attack them first you're only doing it "defensively".

    That's really the Alliance's main problem - they are treated with this inherent "good guy" image that puts all they do into a righteous perspective, even when it very clearly isn't. Which makes them look hypocritical and pathetic far more than it makes them look heroic. And it also makes them incredibly boring, because they obfuscate their motivations with this dance of irresponsibility, and prevent you from actually ever wanting to, you know, root for their side.
    Alliance lore supporters are borderline nationalists, tbh.
    Like how do you not see that SI:7 was the catalyst for the entire conflict?

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Like how do you not see that SI:7 was the catalyst for the entire conflict?
    Nice conspiracy theory.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The Alliance should be more militaristic and less "peace and love". The Alliance should be ruled by Tyrande and Genn and not by the Stormwind fools (after Varian died everything went downhill there). Give Tyrande the lead over Kalimdor and Genn over Eastern Kingdoms and the Alliance maybe can shine again. Anduin was the biggest blow to the Alliance ever, he was and still is an utter joke of a King. Thank god he is not part of Dragonflight (as of now).
    The problem is that, when the Alliance finally bites back, you will never hear the end of it online from the opposing side.

    Just look at how, in this very thread, the Alliance is still getting complaints about that insignificant, tiny, worthless little camp in the middle of a wasteland, which was burned more than 10 years ago.

    The Alliance will remain the lawful stupid good guys, that's the image they are stuck with sadly.

    Fun Fact: Baine Bloodhoof once stated that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target and thus the Alliance did nothing wrong there. He also exiled those tauren who did not understand this, proving that they were blinded by vengeance and dangerous. So Blizzard would disagree with these complaints from the community about Camp Taurajo: the Alliance really did nothing wrong there.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-08-23 at 02:30 PM.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Nice conspiracy theory.
    I dunno I read the book where SI:7 was spying and interfering with goblins minding their business
    btw nice avatar garithos did nothing wrong etc etc

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The problem is that, when the Alliance finally bites back, you will never hear the end of it from Horde players.

    Just look how, in this very thread, they are still complaining about that insignificant, tiny, worthless little camp in the middle of a wasteland, which was burned more than 10 years ago.

    The Alliance will remain the lawful stupid good guys, because Horde players can't handle an Alliance that actually fights back on even ground.
    The alliance *doesn't* fight on even ground
    they try to assassinate kings and run away afterwards. anyway thank the alliance good boy plot armour that mekkatorque and jaina lived, I guess.

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I dunno I read the book where SI:7 was spying and interfering with goblins minding their business
    btw nice avatar garithos did nothing wrong etc etc

    - - - Updated - - -



    The alliance *doesn't* fight on even ground
    they try to assassinate kings and run away afterwards. anyway thank the alliance good boy plot armour that mekkatorque and jaina lived, I guess.
    "Try"? Why use that word? Last I checked, they indeed succeeded in assassinating King Rastakhan. Or did I miss some spoiler or datamined material?

    Perhaps it would be better if the Alliance just said "fuck it, I'm going to nuke the Horde and be done with it. To hell with all of them", instead of constantly playing the good boys and only going after their kings and military officers. But then again, they are the good faction after all, they can't be allowed to be "too ruthless".

  19. #679
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Power comes in myriad forms, because ultimately everything is power, whether it is political, wealth, strength of arms, knowledge etc. This would certainly be a step in the right direction, but it wouldn't nearly be enough. This is pretty much just a flip of the typical horde story-line, which is equally flat as the Alliance one for different reasons, what the factions really need is identity, every fist pump moment for a faction needs to actually resonate in some way or form.

    It would play in the new generational conflict between orcs and night elves, but the story needs more depth, to actually produce something interesting.
    I think it goes a bit beyond just the typical reversal of the Horde/Alliance dynamic because unlike the Horde's many aggressive actions throughout WoW's history (e.g. Theramore and Teldrassil) the Night Elves' sacking of Orgrimmar and using it as the genesis for a new kingdom could be argued to be justified, since it is both reparation for what the Horde took from them, as well as justice done to correct a serious and long-standing grievance. It would offer up a renaissance of power and influence for an underdeveloped portion of the Alliance, while at the same time forcing the Alliance to contend with its own foibles of inaction and passivity over the past decade or so. Similar to the Horde, they are faced with the choice of allowing the Kaldorei to take well-deserved vengeance for the Horde's complicity in Sylvanas' brutal act concerning Teldrassil, or reigniting the faction war despite that.

    Strong themes of both external and internal conflict give both factions the chance to develop and grow, and perhaps even shift their own demographics as certain groups grow disillusioned with the status quo, or become emboldened by conquest and vengeance.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    "Try"? Why use that word? Last I checked, they indeed succeeded in assassinating King Rastakhan. Or did I miss some spoiler or datamined material?

    Perhaps it would be better if the Alliance just said "fuck it, I'm going to nuke the Horde and be done with it. To hell with all of them", instead of constantly playing the good boys and only going after their kings and military officers. But then again, they are the good faction after all, they can't be allowed to be "too ruthless".
    the try was more in regard to the running, where we killed one of the alliance leaders and nearly killed another, barring plot devices, ofc

    And baine bloodhoof is an alliance cuckold and part and parcel why noone likes the alliance.
    Alliance aren't the "good" faction, they are nazis with emoji smiles instead of swastikas.

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