What are the best ways to make the Alliance more popular and interesting?

[Aucald]

But the fact that there's no politics/drama in the alliance is just baffling.

You mean to tell me that a hegemony of 8 races at this point? 10? just follow anduin blindly without any wants/desires of their own? Tyrande did her little night warrior thing and that *should've* been the alliance's main narrative for a bit, not just a one time scenario, lol

That's long been a point of contention with the Horde, as well; with many strong-willed and iconic groups seemingly moving in lock-step with an autocratic Warchief's whims. In a realistic setting where a coalition nation of many species is united in a pact for mutual protection, it is very unrealistic that Garrosh's warmongering would be celebrated or even welcomed by a majority. Ditto as well for Sylvanas' rationale for war.

[Aucald]

While you guys discuss lore reasons for the lack of balance beetween factions.

Racials and cosmetics say hello!

This isn't really the place to address perceived gameplay imbalances - WoW General Discussions has plenty of threads and conversations pertaining to those aspects of WoW.

[Kehego]

That's long been a point of contention with the Horde, as well; with many strong-willed and iconic groups seemingly moving in lock-step with an autocratic Warchief's whims. In a realistic setting where a coalition nation of many species is united in a pact for mutual protection, it is very unrealistic that Garrosh's warmongering would be celebrated or even welcomed by a majority. Ditto as well for Sylvanas' rationale for war.

No, because since the cataclysm there have been many internal conflicts in the horde. Garrosh and vol'jin had a whole civil war, or did we forget?

And even in wotlk the horde disagreed with the actions of thrall often, the UC could've been an entire third faction easily.

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Like literally the first quest in silverpine forest has garrosh calling sylvanas a bitch

[Biomega]

While you guys discuss lore reasons for the lack of balance beetween factions.

Racials and cosmetics say hello!

Well this IS the Lore sub-forum here, so...

Also: Alliance racials have been better, on the whole, for quite some time. It's not the answer.

[Eosia]

The Alliance is flat because it basically lacks a solid foundation and soul, its tenets ring hollow and its people are superficial at best, they need character, flaws and motivations galore, there should be no unquestionable unity, each member should have their own concerns, just overlapping in the overall sense of defense or maybe expansion, not to mention the focus is utterly broken, humans chew up so much screentime, the rest of the Alliance might not even exist. During some cutscenes they literally don't or pretty much say nothing.

You hit the nail on the head here I think. While Anduin is having kind of a moral crisis right now because of the events that occurred while he was under the control of Zovaal, it's still happening behind the scenes. We're not really seeing the consequences of it in-game at the moment beyond the scene with Sylvanas in the Maw.

Really the closest the Alliance has come with actual character development, flaws, and such is Tyrande and Genn. Problem is, while story-wise they're linked together with the Night Elf druids coming to the assistance of the Worgen and giving them sanctuary in Darnassus, their issues are also linked together.... revenge against the Forsaken to a degree but centered on Sylvanas.

But we don't see any real issues coming out of Ironforge or Stormwind at the moment with those faction leaders. They've done more with the faction leaders from the Allied races than the core ones (Vanilla-Cata). Jaina has had tons of development, and Alleria has come back and had a lot added to her as well. But it's all about Anduin.

Contrast that with the Horde and even when their issues have centered on Garrosh and Sylvanas, they still made it about the Horde as a whole. It wasn't just Garrosh or Sylvanas being mega-bads and the rest of the Horde wringiong their hands going "Oh No!". The other leaders, Baine, Lor'themar, and Vol'jin each rose to the occasion. They also introduce other dimensions such as Lor'themar's "divided" loyalty, for lack of a better term. After the in-game scene where you can "Stay and listen" to him talk with Genn, he mentions being torn between what Sylvanas had become versus the Ranger General he served under and who died trying to defend Quel'thalas from Arthas. All of that kind of stuff is missing from the Alliance side.

I do think there are numerous things going in with the writing team that contribute to this. First and foremost is the constant changing of hands. We had Metzen, Afrasiabi, and now Steve Denuser. Christie Golden is in there somewhere too although her presence is not really as felt as much as those others. They need to really divide the current writing team in half, and then hire more for each time to restore the numbers. Because it seems like the overall expansion stories tend to lean on the Horde doing something so it inevitably ends up being all about the Horde again. Even when it's not, the Alliance still gets neglected. Like Uldir... why did the Alliance have to go there to deal w/ G'huun story-wise? We know why the Horde had to, because of the Blood Trolls and Zul's mechanations. But why would the Alliance really even be aware of it let alone be required to deal with it?

[Combatbutler]

I think it goes a bit beyond just the typical reversal of the Horde/Alliance dynamic because unlike the Horde's many aggressive actions throughout WoW's history (e.g. Theramore and Teldrassil) the Night Elves' sacking of Orgrimmar and using it as the genesis for a new kingdom could be argued to be justified, since it is both reparation for what the Horde took from them, as well as justice done to correct a serious and long-standing grievance. It would offer up a renaissance of power and influence for an underdeveloped portion of the Alliance, while at the same time forcing the Alliance to contend with its own foibles of inaction and passivity over the past decade or so. Similar to the Horde, they are faced with the choice of allowing the Kaldorei to take well-deserved vengeance for the Horde's complicity in Sylvanas' brutal act concerning Teldrassil, or reigniting the faction war despite that.

Strong themes of both external and internal conflict give both factions the chance to develop and grow, and perhaps even shift their own demographics as certain groups grow disillusioned with the status quo, or become emboldened by conquest and vengeance.

As I said it is not enough, the night elves have pretty much just the same leverage as the average troll nowadays. It is nice for a small storybeat, but won't fix the underlying issue, if we don't actually get to see what the factions truly are it is just as hollow as the burning of teldrassil itself was, it meant pretty much nothing except for cheap shock value.

It is just blue beats red this time, you have the main storybeat, but now you need perspectives that bring this conflict to life. The night elves should by all means hold a grudge for one of their generation and act on it, meaning trying to drive the whole horde from kalimdor, meaning generations of innocents will die in the future, this will properly muddle the whole thing.

Add internal conflict to it all and finally flesh out the races, with defined traditions rites etc.

[Nerovar]

That's long been a point of contention with the Horde, as well; with many strong-willed and iconic groups seemingly moving in lock-step with an autocratic Warchief's whims. In a realistic setting where a coalition nation of many species is united in a pact for mutual protection, it is very unrealistic that Garrosh's warmongering would be celebrated or even welcomed by a majority. Ditto as well for Sylvanas' rationale for war.

The difference is that the Horde actually gets to have internal divisions and even lets players "pick a side" (even if it was ultimately inconsequential). Where has Blizzard ever written anything close to this for the Alliance? Why could we never side with e.g. the Scarlet Crusade even though they had some very obvious things going for them? Instead we're sent to purge the Scarlet Monastery, wipe out the only living holdout in Stratholme and burn their libraries etc.

[Kehego]

You hit the nail on the head here I think. While Anduin is having kind of a moral crisis right now because of the events that occurred while he was under the control of Zovaal, it's still happening behind the scenes. We're not really seeing the consequences of it in-game at the moment beyond the scene with Sylvanas in the Maw.

Really the closest the Alliance has come with actual character development, flaws, and such is Tyrande and Genn. Problem is, while story-wise they're linked together with the Night Elf druids coming to the assistance of the Worgen and giving them sanctuary in Darnassus, their issues are also linked together.... revenge against the Forsaken to a degree but centered on Sylvanas.

But we don't see any real issues coming out of Ironforge or Stormwind at the moment with those faction leaders. They've done more with the faction leaders from the Allied races than the core ones (Vanilla-Cata). Jaina has had tons of development, and Alleria has come back and had a lot added to her as well. But it's all about Anduin.

Contrast that with the Horde and even when their issues have centered on Garrosh and Sylvanas, they still made it about the Horde as a whole. It wasn't just Garrosh or Sylvanas being mega-bads and the rest of the Horde wringiong their hands going "Oh No!". The other leaders, Baine, Lor'themar, and Vol'jin each rose to the occasion. They also introduce other dimensions such as Lor'themar's "divided" loyalty, for lack of a better term. After the in-game scene where you can "Stay and listen" to him talk with Genn, he mentions being torn between what Sylvanas had become versus the Ranger General he served under and who died trying to defend Quel'thalas from Arthas. All of that kind of stuff is missing from the Alliance side.

I do think there are numerous things going in with the writing team that contribute to this. First and foremost is the constant changing of hands. We had Metzen, Afrasiabi, and now Steve Denuser. Christie Golden is in there somewhere too although her presence is not really as felt as much as those others. They need to really divide the current writing team in half, and then hire more for each time to restore the numbers. Because it seems like the overall expansion stories tend to lean on the Horde doing something so it inevitably ends up being all about the Horde again. Even when it's not, the Alliance still gets neglected. Like Uldir... why did the Alliance have to go there to deal w/ G'huun story-wise? We know why the Horde had to, because of the Blood Trolls and Zul's mechanations. But why would the Alliance really even be aware of it let alone be required to deal with it?

whoops please don't talk about baine and doing anything. Kid is as useful as balls on a dildo and I'm sure Cairne would rather jump into the maw than watch him kowtow with anduin

also the alliance only went to uldir for gameplay reasons. a lot of the raid threats have been canonically defeated by only one faction, almost never a coalition.

[Maljinwo]

The Alliance needs intrigue

You have nobles, kings... Hell, even completely opposed forces living under the same roof

Give me political manouvers between human noble houses.
Culture clashes between the different dwarven clans
Brawls between void elves and lighforged, which is completely stupid that they haven't had even ONE spat so far
We could even get any race questioning why is a human leading them. Tyrande has thousands of years of leadership. Velen as well. Hell, even the dwarves held the Alliance together during classic. They are an alliance after all, not a despotic state. Why would they cooperate on everything

[Kehego]

The difference is that the Horde actually gets to have internal divisions and even lets players "pick a side" (even if it was ultimately inconsequential). Where has Blizzard ever written anything close to this for the Alliance? Why could we never side with e.g. the Scarlet Crusade even though they had some very obvious things going for them? Instead we're sent to purge the Scarlet Monastery, wipe out the only living holdout in Stratholme and burn their libraries etc.

Because you're in the boiled potato faction where y'all all bow to MANDUIN and his whims.
There's no personality in the alliance.

[Aucald]

No, because since the cataclysm there have been many internal conflicts in the horde. Garrosh and vol'jin had a whole civil war, or did we forget?

And even in wotlk the horde disagreed with the actions of thrall often, the UC could've been an entire third faction easily.

Internal conflicts, yes, but born almost entirely of unilateral decisions by functional autocrats. Garrosh and Vol'jin wouldn't have had to have a civil war because, in a realistic Horde, Thrall wouldn't have been able to unilaterally impanel Garrosh as his successor as easily as he did with every other Horde client-nation falling in line. In WotLK the Horde as a whole didn't disagree with the actions of the Thrall, Garrosh himself did - basically acting like a spoiled child in almost every vignette he was featured in.

The situation is mirrored pretty heavily in the Alliance, as well; with only surface-level tensions arising before everyone fell in lock-step with either Varian, or his successor and son, Anduin. Anduin's ascent to become High King is itself a bit nonsensical in my view, because unlike the Horde the Alliance *elected* the High King by majority vote in Wolfheart, with no mention that the position was meant to be hereditary. One would think that, in a more realistic setting, on the occasion of Varian's untimely death the Alliance would've reconvened its counsel and elected a new High King - one that wasn't only barely an adult and naive to the realities of war and conflict.

[Nerovar]

Because you're in the boiled potato faction where y'all all bow to MANDUIN and his whims.
There's no personality in the alliance.

There is lots of potential personality in the Alliance. It's just drowned out so they can continue to exist as a passive monolith to be assailed by the protagonist faction (Horde).

[Aucald]

The difference is that the Horde actually gets to have internal divisions and even lets players "pick a side" (even if it was ultimately inconsequential). Where has Blizzard ever written anything close to this for the Alliance? Why could we never side with e.g. the Scarlet Crusade even though they had some very obvious things going for them? Instead we're sent to purge the Scarlet Monastery, wipe out the only living holdout in Stratholme and burn their libraries etc.

That, I would say, is a pretty fundamental and interesting mechanic that would breathe some added vibrancy to the Alliance. The Alliance does need some internal friction with player agency to choose a course and have it reflected to some degree in the faction's narrative. I don't know if I'd necessarily say siding with the Scarlet Crusade is the branch I'd pick, but YMMV.

[Kehego]

There is lots of potential personality in the Alliance. It's just drowned out so they can continue to exist as a passive monolith to be assailed by the protagonist faction (Horde).

The horde have been the charming antagonists, never the protagonists.
But of course you'd say that, the alliance victim complex never ceases. Best defense is a good offense etc etc amirite?

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That, I would say, is a pretty fundamental and interesting mechanic that would breathe some added vibrancy to the Alliance. The Alliance does need some internal friction with player agency to choose a course and have it reflected to some degree in the faction's narrative. I don't know if I'd necessarily say siding with the Scarlet Crusade is the branch I'd pick, but YMMV.

what narrative?

Like anduin disappears from time to time and NOTHING HAPPENS

lmfao

"we'll wait for the king to return"

[Nerovar]

That, I would say, is a pretty fundamental and interesting mechanic that would breathe some added vibrancy to the Alliance. The Alliance does need some internal friction with player agency to choose a course and have it reflected to some degree in the faction's narrative. I don't know if I'd necessarily say siding with the Scarlet Crusade is the branch I'd pick, but YMMV.

The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.

The horde have been the charming antagonists, never the protagonists.
But of course you'd say that, the alliance victim complex never ceases. Best defense is a good offense etc etc amirite?

How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?

[Aucald]

what narrative?

Like anduin disappears from time to time and NOTHING HAPPENS

lmfao

"we'll wait for the king to return"

Since we're talking about theoretical or desired changes here, *any* narrative. We're brainstorming new ideas to breathe new life into the Alliance, not bemoaning the state of lore as it currently appears. To take the above proposition further, instead of blithely accepting Turalyon as regent, you could have portions of the Alliance deeply upset and looking for a new elected leader. You could even have the Alliance wondering why it needs an autocratic position like "High King" and wish for a return to a more democratic leadership as it had prior to Wolfheart. Separatist groups could foment dissension or outright rebellion, while outside agents capitalize on a perceived weakness and cause further chaos.

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The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.

How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?

You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The Alliance needs intrigue

You have nobles, kings... Hell, even completely opposed forces living under the same roof

Give me political manouvers between human noble houses.
Culture clashes between the different dwarven clans
Brawls between void elves and lighforged, which is completely stupid that they haven't had even ONE spat so far
We could even get any race questioning why is a human leading them. Tyrande has thousands of years of leadership. Velen as well. Hell, even the dwarves held the Alliance together during classic. They are an alliance after all, not a despotic state. Why would they cooperate on everything

Indeed, the Alliance needs intrigues, it needs some realistic level of tensions inside and between its members, and to be a true alliance and not a single leadership.

Also the cultural uniqueness and differences between its members should be far more developped.

Even if both races worship the same Light, Draenei's view of it, rituals, feasts and holidays in honor of the Light and uses of it should very really different of humans'.

[Nerovar]

You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.

Well, you can't assume that everyone in the Alliance has the same knowledge about the Scarlet Crusade as the player. The Church NPCs in the Cathedral of Stormwind still deny that Benedictus was the Twilight Father if you speak to them. Back in Classic you also quested for a Scarlet Emissary in Desolace who seemed to know very little about the corruption that had taken hold of the organisation. The "wiped out" thing is also hardly a defeater for the Scarlet Crusade since they've been "wiped out" in Classic, WotLK, Cata and MoP and still somehow manage to return every single time (not saying that this is necessarily good but there's definitely precedent for them rising from the ashes).

I think they're aesthetically distinct and would provide some interesting friction to human society while functioning as an outlet for all the Alliance players who don't want to "cozy up" to the Horde.

[Kehego]

The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.


How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?

a lot, after all the alliance are the protagonists of this game like I said.
c'mon bro, keep up.

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Since we're talking about theoretical or desired changes here, *any* narrative. We're brainstorming new ideas to breathe new life into the Alliance, not bemoaning the state of lore as it currently appears. To take the above proposition further, instead of blithely accepting Turalyon as regent, you could have portions of the Alliance deeply upset and looking for a new elected leader. You could even have the Alliance wondering why it needs an autocratic position like "High King" and wish for a return to a more democratic leadership as it had prior to Wolfheart. Separatist groups could foment dissension or outright rebellion, while outside agents capitalize on a perceived weakness and cause further chaos.

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You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.

You could have that, I agree

will we?

also I'm kinda more interested in where the writers take the milquetoast, whether or not they are gonna make any substantial narrative changes to make the faction come alive... not just making blind fanfiction level assumptions.

Like, its so funny cus the thalssra/theron wedding is alliance tier stuff... but because none of the characters are characters but just plot devices, this won't happen.

[Combatbutler]

snip

The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences