What are the best ways to make the Alliance more popular and interesting?

[Kehego]

There is lots of potential personality in the Alliance. It's just drowned out so they can continue to exist as a passive monolith to be assailed by the protagonist faction (Horde).

The horde have been the charming antagonists, never the protagonists.
But of course you'd say that, the alliance victim complex never ceases. Best defense is a good offense etc etc amirite?

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That, I would say, is a pretty fundamental and interesting mechanic that would breathe some added vibrancy to the Alliance. The Alliance does need some internal friction with player agency to choose a course and have it reflected to some degree in the faction's narrative. I don't know if I'd necessarily say siding with the Scarlet Crusade is the branch I'd pick, but YMMV.

what narrative?

Like anduin disappears from time to time and NOTHING HAPPENS

lmfao

"we'll wait for the king to return"

[Nerovar]

That, I would say, is a pretty fundamental and interesting mechanic that would breathe some added vibrancy to the Alliance. The Alliance does need some internal friction with player agency to choose a course and have it reflected to some degree in the faction's narrative. I don't know if I'd necessarily say siding with the Scarlet Crusade is the branch I'd pick, but YMMV.

The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.

The horde have been the charming antagonists, never the protagonists.
But of course you'd say that, the alliance victim complex never ceases. Best defense is a good offense etc etc amirite?

How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?

[Aucald]

what narrative?

Like anduin disappears from time to time and NOTHING HAPPENS

lmfao

"we'll wait for the king to return"

Since we're talking about theoretical or desired changes here, *any* narrative. We're brainstorming new ideas to breathe new life into the Alliance, not bemoaning the state of lore as it currently appears. To take the above proposition further, instead of blithely accepting Turalyon as regent, you could have portions of the Alliance deeply upset and looking for a new elected leader. You could even have the Alliance wondering why it needs an autocratic position like "High King" and wish for a return to a more democratic leadership as it had prior to Wolfheart. Separatist groups could foment dissension or outright rebellion, while outside agents capitalize on a perceived weakness and cause further chaos.

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The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.

How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?

You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The Alliance needs intrigue

You have nobles, kings... Hell, even completely opposed forces living under the same roof

Give me political manouvers between human noble houses.
Culture clashes between the different dwarven clans
Brawls between void elves and lighforged, which is completely stupid that they haven't had even ONE spat so far
We could even get any race questioning why is a human leading them. Tyrande has thousands of years of leadership. Velen as well. Hell, even the dwarves held the Alliance together during classic. They are an alliance after all, not a despotic state. Why would they cooperate on everything

Indeed, the Alliance needs intrigues, it needs some realistic level of tensions inside and between its members, and to be a true alliance and not a single leadership.

Also the cultural uniqueness and differences between its members should be far more developped.

Even if both races worship the same Light, Draenei's view of it, rituals, feasts and holidays in honor of the Light and uses of it should very really different of humans'.

[Nerovar]

You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.

Well, you can't assume that everyone in the Alliance has the same knowledge about the Scarlet Crusade as the player. The Church NPCs in the Cathedral of Stormwind still deny that Benedictus was the Twilight Father if you speak to them. Back in Classic you also quested for a Scarlet Emissary in Desolace who seemed to know very little about the corruption that had taken hold of the organisation. The "wiped out" thing is also hardly a defeater for the Scarlet Crusade since they've been "wiped out" in Classic, WotLK, Cata and MoP and still somehow manage to return every single time (not saying that this is necessarily good but there's definitely precedent for them rising from the ashes).

I think they're aesthetically distinct and would provide some interesting friction to human society while functioning as an outlet for all the Alliance players who don't want to "cozy up" to the Horde.

[Kehego]

The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.


How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?

a lot, after all the alliance are the protagonists of this game like I said.
c'mon bro, keep up.

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Since we're talking about theoretical or desired changes here, *any* narrative. We're brainstorming new ideas to breathe new life into the Alliance, not bemoaning the state of lore as it currently appears. To take the above proposition further, instead of blithely accepting Turalyon as regent, you could have portions of the Alliance deeply upset and looking for a new elected leader. You could even have the Alliance wondering why it needs an autocratic position like "High King" and wish for a return to a more democratic leadership as it had prior to Wolfheart. Separatist groups could foment dissension or outright rebellion, while outside agents capitalize on a perceived weakness and cause further chaos.

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You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.

You could have that, I agree

will we?

also I'm kinda more interested in where the writers take the milquetoast, whether or not they are gonna make any substantial narrative changes to make the faction come alive... not just making blind fanfiction level assumptions.

Like, its so funny cus the thalssra/theron wedding is alliance tier stuff... but because none of the characters are characters but just plot devices, this won't happen.

[Combatbutler]

snip

The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences

[Feanoro]

@Kehego
When you're done "cleverly" accusing Alliance players of being Nazis, your arguments might be taken seriously.

@Combatbutler
"It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences"

This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.

[Aucald]

The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences

This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.

As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.

[Kehego]

@Kehego
When you're done "cleverly" accusing Alliance players of being Nazis, your arguments might be taken seriously.

@Combatbutler
"It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences"

This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.

I'm not calling alliance players nazis
I'm calling the alliance faction a fascist faction with heavy nationalistic propaganda.

and its mmo-c, could care less whether or not you agree with my correct breakdown

[Feanoro]

As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.

Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.

[Kehego]

Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.

address the root of the issue and you may be able to find a solution

[Feanoro]

I'm not calling alliance players nazis
I'm calling the alliance faction a fascist faction with heavy nationalistic propaganda.

Uh huh, then perhaps you can explain something.

Alliance aren't the "good" faction, they are nazis with emoji smiles instead of swastikas.

Alliance lore supporters are borderline nationalists, tbh.

Taken together, yes, you are calling Alliance players Nazis.

You're clearly not using "nationalists" to mean "patriotic lovers of their country".

and its mmo-c, could care less whether or not you agree with my correct breakdown

Your "correct breakdown" is just the tired old Horde cries of "Boring!" and "Fascist!" (which always demonstrates that word has been twisted into "people I don't like!", as it's so rarely used correctly).

[Aucald]

Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.

That the Alliance is boring is the substance of the OP - so if you disagree with the assessment, perhaps you could expound on where that assessment is wrong and how the Alliance is actually vibrant as a faction?

[Feanoro]

address the root of the issue and you may be able to find a solution

Just as soon as I have the power to hire and fire writers for Blizzard, I'll "address the root of the issue".

[Kehego]

Just as soon as I have the power to hire and fire writers for Blizzard, I'll "address the root of the issue".

No, you can clearly identify threads and express ways in which they can be addressed.

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Uh huh, then perhaps you can explain something.



Taken together, yes, you are calling Alliance players Nazis.

You're clearly not using "nationalists" to mean "patriotic lovers of their country".

Your "correct breakdown" is just the tired old Horde cries of "Boring!" and "Fascist!" (which always demonstrates that word has been twisted into "people I don't like!", as it's so rarely used correctly).

I'm using nationalists in the dictionary sense of the word.

If you can't acknowledge the flaws in the whitewashed hyper aggressive "good boys" then you can feel free to think whatever you choose to think. You already shifted into victim mode so that will be all you discuss moving forward


Anyway a hit dog will holler. I've never called any of yall anything specific but if you found something and chose to affix it to your shirt sleeve I've no power to stop that.


ON TOPIC THOUGH, they need some sort of onyxia level machinations.

[Feanoro]

That the Alliance is boring is the substance of the OP - so if you disagree with the assessment, perhaps you could expound on where that assessment is wrong and how the Alliance is actually vibrant as a faction?

I've played that game in the past. Every similar thread has done the same as this one, Horde posters dogpiling, shrieking "fascist" "racist" and so on, any discussion drowned out, all with your unspoken approval. Why would I waste time again carefully composing something that will be ignored?

I can hear you typing now "Why, I don't approve" (albeit about five times as long as that), all while desperately trying to ignore a poster calling Alliance players Nazis.

[Aucald]

I've played that game in the past. Every similar thread has done the same as this one, Horde posters dogpiling, shrieking "fascist" "racist" and so on, any discussion drowned out, all with your unspoken approval. Why would I waste time again carefully composing something that will be ignored?

Because it's easy to sit back on one's haunches and be critical for its own sake, it's entirely another to offer up realistic and constructive alternatives, especially when that is the substance of the thread. I don't personally set the tenor or control the tone of any given thread - that's your job, along with every other poster here. My role is moderate the discussion and attempt to keep it on track, which if you've been following in this thread you'd note is exactly what I'm doing. So instead of bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with, perhaps offer up some of your own for discussion and criticism. There are lots of people here offering up their own opinions and examples, and no one is really being ignored insofar as I've noticed.

[Feanoro]

I've never called any of yall anything specific but if you found something and chose to affix it to your shirt sleeve I've no power to stop that.

I quoted your posts. It's up to you to make yourself clear.

Also, any dictionary makes it pretty clear that, no, you're not using the definition.

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@Aucald
So exactly what I expected. It's okay by you to call Alliance players Nazis, and calling that out is just "bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with". And you wonder why I don't make any serious effort anymore.

[Kehego]

Infracted for trolling.