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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    snip
    The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

    It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences

  2. #702
    @Kehego
    When you're done "cleverly" accusing Alliance players of being Nazis, your arguments might be taken seriously.

    @Combatbutler
    "It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences"

    This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #703
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

    It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.
    As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Kehego
    When you're done "cleverly" accusing Alliance players of being Nazis, your arguments might be taken seriously.

    @Combatbutler
    "It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences"

    This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.
    I'm not calling alliance players nazis
    I'm calling the alliance faction a fascist faction with heavy nationalistic propaganda.

    and its mmo-c, could care less whether or not you agree with my correct breakdown

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.
    Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.
    address the root of the issue and you may be able to find a solution

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I'm not calling alliance players nazis
    I'm calling the alliance faction a fascist faction with heavy nationalistic propaganda.
    Uh huh, then perhaps you can explain something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Alliance aren't the "good" faction, they are nazis with emoji smiles instead of swastikas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Alliance lore supporters are borderline nationalists, tbh.
    Taken together, yes, you are calling Alliance players Nazis.

    You're clearly not using "nationalists" to mean "patriotic lovers of their country".

    and its mmo-c, could care less whether or not you agree with my correct breakdown
    Your "correct breakdown" is just the tired old Horde cries of "Boring!" and "Fascist!" (which always demonstrates that word has been twisted into "people I don't like!", as it's so rarely used correctly).
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  8. #708
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.
    That the Alliance is boring is the substance of the OP - so if you disagree with the assessment, perhaps you could expound on where that assessment is wrong and how the Alliance is actually vibrant as a faction?
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    address the root of the issue and you may be able to find a solution
    Just as soon as I have the power to hire and fire writers for Blizzard, I'll "address the root of the issue".
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Just as soon as I have the power to hire and fire writers for Blizzard, I'll "address the root of the issue".
    No, you can clearly identify threads and express ways in which they can be addressed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Uh huh, then perhaps you can explain something.



    Taken together, yes, you are calling Alliance players Nazis.

    You're clearly not using "nationalists" to mean "patriotic lovers of their country".

    Your "correct breakdown" is just the tired old Horde cries of "Boring!" and "Fascist!" (which always demonstrates that word has been twisted into "people I don't like!", as it's so rarely used correctly).
    I'm using nationalists in the dictionary sense of the word.

    If you can't acknowledge the flaws in the whitewashed hyper aggressive "good boys" then you can feel free to think whatever you choose to think. You already shifted into victim mode so that will be all you discuss moving forward


    Anyway a hit dog will holler. I've never called any of yall anything specific but if you found something and chose to affix it to your shirt sleeve I've no power to stop that.


    ON TOPIC THOUGH, they need some sort of onyxia level machinations.
    Last edited by Kehego; 2022-08-23 at 04:55 PM.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That the Alliance is boring is the substance of the OP - so if you disagree with the assessment, perhaps you could expound on where that assessment is wrong and how the Alliance is actually vibrant as a faction?
    I've played that game in the past. Every similar thread has done the same as this one, Horde posters dogpiling, shrieking "fascist" "racist" and so on, any discussion drowned out, all with your unspoken approval. Why would I waste time again carefully composing something that will be ignored?

    I can hear you typing now "Why, I don't approve" (albeit about five times as long as that), all while desperately trying to ignore a poster calling Alliance players Nazis.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2022-08-23 at 04:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  12. #712
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    I've played that game in the past. Every similar thread has done the same as this one, Horde posters dogpiling, shrieking "fascist" "racist" and so on, any discussion drowned out, all with your unspoken approval. Why would I waste time again carefully composing something that will be ignored?
    Because it's easy to sit back on one's haunches and be critical for its own sake, it's entirely another to offer up realistic and constructive alternatives, especially when that is the substance of the thread. I don't personally set the tenor or control the tone of any given thread - that's your job, along with every other poster here. My role is moderate the discussion and attempt to keep it on track, which if you've been following in this thread you'd note is exactly what I'm doing. So instead of bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with, perhaps offer up some of your own for discussion and criticism. There are lots of people here offering up their own opinions and examples, and no one is really being ignored insofar as I've noticed.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I've never called any of yall anything specific but if you found something and chose to affix it to your shirt sleeve I've no power to stop that.
    I quoted your posts. It's up to you to make yourself clear.

    Also, any dictionary makes it pretty clear that, no, you're not using the definition.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Aucald
    So exactly what I expected. It's okay by you to call Alliance players Nazis, and calling that out is just "bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with". And you wonder why I don't make any serious effort anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  14. #714
    Infracted for trolling.
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2022-08-23 at 09:32 PM.

  15. #715
    Stop making the n. elves pussies.

    Figure out the hierarchy. Anduin should have never been High King or the Supreme Allied Commander during Legion and BFA

    Genn's arc needs more arc, he is only 'rawr sylvanas, grr forsaken'
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    wE doN't kNoW wHaT pLaYeRs WaNt FoR cHarAcTeR CrEaTiOn MoDeLs

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.
    Quite simple, keep your established story in mind, when adding new things. It is the most simple thing that they could do. Otherwise fleshing out the races through quests, like rites of passage, exact dates of considered adulthood, apprenticeships, more rural stories, more fleshed out family dynasties, generational rivalries, political intrigue about pretty much anything, basic resources, money, knowledge, artifacts. But connecting it all.

    Giving exact sizes to zones, its history, which could be explored through archaeology. Add hundreds of towns and villages etc. in the lore even if they are not in the game, Azeroth is ridiculously small
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2022-08-23 at 05:15 PM.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Quite simple, keep your established story in mind, when adding new things. It is the most simple thing that they could do. Otherwise fleshing out the races through quests, like rites of passage, exact dates of considered adulthood, apprenticeships, more rural stories, more fleshed out family dynasties, generational rivalries, political intrigue about pretty much anything, basic resources, money, knowledge, artifacts. But connecting it all.

    Giving exact sizes to zones, its history, which could be explored through archeology. Add hundreds of towns and villages etc. in the lore even if they are not in the game, Azeroth is ridiculously small
    i could get behind this

    there's more to the alliance than subservience to stormwind

  18. #718
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    So exactly what I expected. It's okay by you to call Alliance players Nazis, and calling that out is just "bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with". And you wonder why I don't make any serious effort anymore.
    No one has called Alliance players nazis in this thread to my knowledge - but if they thought the Alliance was itself comparable to the Nazi regime, that's a valid opinion. It would be just as valid if someone thought that was true of the Horde, too. Thinking a fictional faction or person is terrible isn't an issue. If they think that needs to be changed about the Alliance to make it better, then that's a valid opinion for this thread, as well. I don't agree with that position, myself; but everyone's got their own perspectives and opinions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Quite simple, keep your established story in mind, when adding new things. It is the most simple thing that they could do. Otherwise fleshing out the races through quests, like rites of passage, exact dates of considered adulthood, apprenticeships, more rural stories, more fleshed out family dynasties, generational rivalries, political intrigue about pretty much anything, basic resources, money, knowledge, artifacts. But connecting it all.

    Giving exact sizes to zones, its history, which could be explored through archaeology. Add hundreds of towns and villages etc. in the lore even if they are not in the game, Azeroth is ridiculously small
    Adding in racial quests and additional flavor lore like chronologies, rural stories, dynasties, and what have you is all stuff I think would be to the good. I'm not so sure about the realism of adding "hundreds of towns and villages" from a development perspective, given that that would probably be an effective overload for almost everyone, but I think demonstrating in the in-game story that the world is bigger than presented would also be to the good. In that regard, as I've said previously, I think what WoW really needs is a good exploration expansion to really add to the substance of Azeroth as a whole. With multiple locales, and further development on how that affects the existing locations and nations of Azeroth.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Adding in racial quests and additional flavor lore like chronologies, rural stories, dynasties, and what have you is all stuff I think would be to the good. I'm not so sure about the realism of adding "hundreds of towns and villages" from a development perspective, given that that would probably be an effective overload for almost everyone, but I think demonstrating in the in-game story that the world is bigger than presented would also be to the good. In that regard, as I've said previously, I think what WoW really needs is a good exploration expansion to really add to the substance of Azeroth as a whole. With multiple locales, and further development on how that affects the existing locations and nations of Azeroth.
    You need some form of realism and this city state nonsense for entire continents is bullshit, the only writer that ever used even remotely somewhat logical numbers was stackpole, all the others used ridiculously low numbers for entire populations, the Frostwolf were a few dozen, less than a thousand draenei escaped from Argus, Alleria walked through pretty much all of Quel'thalas in less than a day etc.

    This is incredibly bad worldbuilding at its very core and it needs fixing.

  20. #720
    Figure out what makes the Horde more popular/interesting and then copy some of that.

    For example it could be the rampant war crimes, genocide, bombings or exterminating your own allies.
    Maybe it's due to the seemingly sanctioned botting, exploiting and rampant cheating that predominantly happens on that side.
    It could also be the griefing, camp spawning and spitting during pvp encounters that makes them feel more cool.
    Or we need more edge lord races compared the incredible vanilla flavored Alliance ones.

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