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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.
    Well, you can't assume that everyone in the Alliance has the same knowledge about the Scarlet Crusade as the player. The Church NPCs in the Cathedral of Stormwind still deny that Benedictus was the Twilight Father if you speak to them. Back in Classic you also quested for a Scarlet Emissary in Desolace who seemed to know very little about the corruption that had taken hold of the organisation. The "wiped out" thing is also hardly a defeater for the Scarlet Crusade since they've been "wiped out" in Classic, WotLK, Cata and MoP and still somehow manage to return every single time (not saying that this is necessarily good but there's definitely precedent for them rising from the ashes).

    I think they're aesthetically distinct and would provide some interesting friction to human society while functioning as an outlet for all the Alliance players who don't want to "cozy up" to the Horde.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The Scarlet Crusade is a pretty good candidate especially now that the "mainstream" Alliance tacitly supports the Forsaken claim on Lordaeron and the malignant influences (meaning Dreadlords, mostly) have been purged from the Crusade. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden humans (many of whom fled from Lordaeron) would rejoice at the prospect of Undead inhabiting the former crown jewel of the Alliance and not being challenged.
    The Scarlet Crusade also was the only human force that managed to not only survive in the Plaguelands but also create sizable holds within that wasteland (Tyr's Hand, Scarlet Enclave, Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Scarlet Bastion). They also had Dwarfs, Elves and Tirasians in their ranks.


    How many Alliance characters and instutitions have been turned neutral in order to cater to the Horde again?
    a lot, after all the alliance are the protagonists of this game like I said.
    c'mon bro, keep up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Since we're talking about theoretical or desired changes here, *any* narrative. We're brainstorming new ideas to breathe new life into the Alliance, not bemoaning the state of lore as it currently appears. To take the above proposition further, instead of blithely accepting Turalyon as regent, you could have portions of the Alliance deeply upset and looking for a new elected leader. You could even have the Alliance wondering why it needs an autocratic position like "High King" and wish for a return to a more democratic leadership as it had prior to Wolfheart. Separatist groups could foment dissension or outright rebellion, while outside agents capitalize on a perceived weakness and cause further chaos.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You'd need to do some radical restructuring of the Scarlet Crusade to make the idea work, I'd say - especially since, as it currently stands, the Crusade has been essentially wiped out and the remnant of its members converted into undead Risen by Balnazzar beforehand. Having been created by, led, and its agenda set by literal demons would also make it a difficult choice for many more moderate Alliance citizens to accept in the modern day, as well.
    You could have that, I agree

    will we?

    also I'm kinda more interested in where the writers take the milquetoast, whether or not they are gonna make any substantial narrative changes to make the faction come alive... not just making blind fanfiction level assumptions.

    Like, its so funny cus the thalssra/theron wedding is alliance tier stuff... but because none of the characters are characters but just plot devices, this won't happen.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    snip
    The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

    It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences

  4. #704
    @Kehego
    When you're done "cleverly" accusing Alliance players of being Nazis, your arguments might be taken seriously.

    @Combatbutler
    "It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences"

    This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.

  5. #705
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The problem is the entire story, it is not organic, it doesn't respect itself so to speak, take your tidbit of Lor'themar for example, it should have never have happened to begin with, since the guy outright threatened Sylvanas prior to kill her if she ever stooped so low to raise his people, que Bfa and he doesn't give a damn.

    It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.
    As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Kehego
    When you're done "cleverly" accusing Alliance players of being Nazis, your arguments might be taken seriously.

    @Combatbutler
    "It is all just flat and superficial to reach storybeats in their predetermined order, with little to no real consequences"

    This is a fantastic summary of Blizzard writing.
    I'm not calling alliance players nazis
    I'm calling the alliance faction a fascist faction with heavy nationalistic propaganda.

    and its mmo-c, could care less whether or not you agree with my correct breakdown

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.
    Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.
    address the root of the issue and you may be able to find a solution

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I'm not calling alliance players nazis
    I'm calling the alliance faction a fascist faction with heavy nationalistic propaganda.
    Uh huh, then perhaps you can explain something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Alliance aren't the "good" faction, they are nazis with emoji smiles instead of swastikas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Alliance lore supporters are borderline nationalists, tbh.
    Taken together, yes, you are calling Alliance players Nazis.

    You're clearly not using "nationalists" to mean "patriotic lovers of their country".

    and its mmo-c, could care less whether or not you agree with my correct breakdown
    Your "correct breakdown" is just the tired old Horde cries of "Boring!" and "Fascist!" (which always demonstrates that word has been twisted into "people I don't like!", as it's so rarely used correctly).

  10. #710
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Then perhaps it shouldn't be derailed with the usual Horde talking points about how the Alliance is somehow boring and fascist.
    That the Alliance is boring is the substance of the OP - so if you disagree with the assessment, perhaps you could expound on where that assessment is wrong and how the Alliance is actually vibrant as a faction?
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    address the root of the issue and you may be able to find a solution
    Just as soon as I have the power to hire and fire writers for Blizzard, I'll "address the root of the issue".

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Just as soon as I have the power to hire and fire writers for Blizzard, I'll "address the root of the issue".
    No, you can clearly identify threads and express ways in which they can be addressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Uh huh, then perhaps you can explain something.



    Taken together, yes, you are calling Alliance players Nazis.

    You're clearly not using "nationalists" to mean "patriotic lovers of their country".

    Your "correct breakdown" is just the tired old Horde cries of "Boring!" and "Fascist!" (which always demonstrates that word has been twisted into "people I don't like!", as it's so rarely used correctly).
    I'm using nationalists in the dictionary sense of the word.

    If you can't acknowledge the flaws in the whitewashed hyper aggressive "good boys" then you can feel free to think whatever you choose to think. You already shifted into victim mode so that will be all you discuss moving forward


    Anyway a hit dog will holler. I've never called any of yall anything specific but if you found something and chose to affix it to your shirt sleeve I've no power to stop that.


    ON TOPIC THOUGH, they need some sort of onyxia level machinations.
    Last edited by Kehego; 2022-08-23 at 04:55 PM.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That the Alliance is boring is the substance of the OP - so if you disagree with the assessment, perhaps you could expound on where that assessment is wrong and how the Alliance is actually vibrant as a faction?
    I've played that game in the past. Every similar thread has done the same as this one, Horde posters dogpiling, shrieking "fascist" "racist" and so on, any discussion drowned out, all with your unspoken approval. Why would I waste time again carefully composing something that will be ignored?

    I can hear you typing now "Why, I don't approve" (albeit about five times as long as that), all while desperately trying to ignore a poster calling Alliance players Nazis.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2022-08-23 at 04:56 PM.

  14. #714
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    I've played that game in the past. Every similar thread has done the same as this one, Horde posters dogpiling, shrieking "fascist" "racist" and so on, any discussion drowned out, all with your unspoken approval. Why would I waste time again carefully composing something that will be ignored?
    Because it's easy to sit back on one's haunches and be critical for its own sake, it's entirely another to offer up realistic and constructive alternatives, especially when that is the substance of the thread. I don't personally set the tenor or control the tone of any given thread - that's your job, along with every other poster here. My role is moderate the discussion and attempt to keep it on track, which if you've been following in this thread you'd note is exactly what I'm doing. So instead of bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with, perhaps offer up some of your own for discussion and criticism. There are lots of people here offering up their own opinions and examples, and no one is really being ignored insofar as I've noticed.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I've never called any of yall anything specific but if you found something and chose to affix it to your shirt sleeve I've no power to stop that.
    I quoted your posts. It's up to you to make yourself clear.

    Also, any dictionary makes it pretty clear that, no, you're not using the definition.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Aucald
    So exactly what I expected. It's okay by you to call Alliance players Nazis, and calling that out is just "bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with". And you wonder why I don't make any serious effort anymore.

  16. #716
    Infracted for trolling.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2022-08-23 at 09:32 PM.

  17. #717
    Stop making the n. elves pussies.

    Figure out the hierarchy. Anduin should have never been High King or the Supreme Allied Commander during Legion and BFA

    Genn's arc needs more arc, he is only 'rawr sylvanas, grr forsaken'
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    wE doN't kNoW wHaT pLaYeRs WaNt FoR cHarAcTeR CrEaTiOn MoDeLs

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As the whole purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas as to how to improve the current lore, this would be the place to offer your own original ideas as to how that might be done for both the Alliance as a whole and for its marquee characters.
    Quite simple, keep your established story in mind, when adding new things. It is the most simple thing that they could do. Otherwise fleshing out the races through quests, like rites of passage, exact dates of considered adulthood, apprenticeships, more rural stories, more fleshed out family dynasties, generational rivalries, political intrigue about pretty much anything, basic resources, money, knowledge, artifacts. But connecting it all.

    Giving exact sizes to zones, its history, which could be explored through archaeology. Add hundreds of towns and villages etc. in the lore even if they are not in the game, Azeroth is ridiculously small
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2022-08-23 at 05:15 PM.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Quite simple, keep your established story in mind, when adding new things. It is the most simple thing that they could do. Otherwise fleshing out the races through quests, like rites of passage, exact dates of considered adulthood, apprenticeships, more rural stories, more fleshed out family dynasties, generational rivalries, political intrigue about pretty much anything, basic resources, money, knowledge, artifacts. But connecting it all.

    Giving exact sizes to zones, its history, which could be explored through archeology. Add hundreds of towns and villages etc. in the lore even if they are not in the game, Azeroth is ridiculously small
    i could get behind this

    there's more to the alliance than subservience to stormwind

  20. #720
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    So exactly what I expected. It's okay by you to call Alliance players Nazis, and calling that out is just "bemoaning the fact that people have opinions you don't like or agree with". And you wonder why I don't make any serious effort anymore.
    No one has called Alliance players nazis in this thread to my knowledge - but if they thought the Alliance was itself comparable to the Nazi regime, that's a valid opinion. It would be just as valid if someone thought that was true of the Horde, too. Thinking a fictional faction or person is terrible isn't an issue. If they think that needs to be changed about the Alliance to make it better, then that's a valid opinion for this thread, as well. I don't agree with that position, myself; but everyone's got their own perspectives and opinions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Quite simple, keep your established story in mind, when adding new things. It is the most simple thing that they could do. Otherwise fleshing out the races through quests, like rites of passage, exact dates of considered adulthood, apprenticeships, more rural stories, more fleshed out family dynasties, generational rivalries, political intrigue about pretty much anything, basic resources, money, knowledge, artifacts. But connecting it all.

    Giving exact sizes to zones, its history, which could be explored through archaeology. Add hundreds of towns and villages etc. in the lore even if they are not in the game, Azeroth is ridiculously small
    Adding in racial quests and additional flavor lore like chronologies, rural stories, dynasties, and what have you is all stuff I think would be to the good. I'm not so sure about the realism of adding "hundreds of towns and villages" from a development perspective, given that that would probably be an effective overload for almost everyone, but I think demonstrating in the in-game story that the world is bigger than presented would also be to the good. In that regard, as I've said previously, I think what WoW really needs is a good exploration expansion to really add to the substance of Azeroth as a whole. With multiple locales, and further development on how that affects the existing locations and nations of Azeroth.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

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