Dragonborne Class Concept 2022

[Teriz]

No, they can't. It's just your assumption. Fooling someone succesfully doesn't mean you are what you are trying to disguise as.

Again, the argument can be made that they fool people so well BECAUSE they have the racial traits of the mortals they're impersonating.

I'm talking in WoW.

Official Blizzard art of Korialstrasz, a Red Dragon;



https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Korialstrasz

I was talking about the scrapped racial.

Okay, how is that relevant?

No, it means you look like one. Give me an example of them exhibiting a racial trait of a form they take.

See above.

[username993720]

Again, I'm not quite sure what you're asking for as examples.

Do you want to see Chromie use Escape Artist or something? Is this what you're talking about?

Yes.

Does dancing count? Because Chromie dances like a Female Gnome, if you consider that a racial capability of a form she's taking.

That's a derivative of her model and a learned thing.

It's kinda difficult to really understand what you're asking, because as I pointed out, most NPCs don't display Racials. Racials are player character gameplay mechanics. Jaina is Kul Tiran and she doesn't even display any of the unique racial capabilities of Kul Tirans. How would one prove that Jaina is racially Kul Tiran?

Did you completely disregard my previous comment like you never replied to it?
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53614559

If you can prove to me Jaina is Kul Tiran through her racial capabilities, then maybe that might help me understand what you're asking of Dragons.

See above.

Again, the argument can be made that they fool people so well BECAUSE they have the racial traits of the mortals they're impersonating.

No. It can be argued that they look, sound and behave extremely similar. They can't suddenly call upon a Naaru blessing when they weren't even blessed by them, for example.

Official Blizzard art of Korialstrasz, a Red Dragon;



https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Korialstrasz

Dude, i asked for an in-game mob.

Okay, how is that relevant?

It isn't. Forget about it. The Suramar thing is the relevant one.

See above.

Huh?
What am i supposed to see? The art?

[Triceron]

Did you completely disregard my previous comment like you never replied to it?

Cherry picked examples don't apply to all NPCs.

Can you show me where Thrall uses his racials? Where Mekkatorque uses his? When Muradin uses his in WoW?

They don't, because they're NPCs.

[username993720]

Cherry picked examples don't apply to all NPCs.

You said it didn't apply to NPCs at all and that it's not part of the lore, but a gameplay aspect. You were shown to be wrong. You can't expect all NPCs to have it.

Can you show me where Thrall uses his racials? Where Mekkatorque uses his? When Muradin uses his in WoW?

They don't, because they're NPCs.

Thrall
Companion(s) Snowsong (hunting partner)

"For reasons unknown, orcs also share a great natural affinity with animals. Many animal-orc friendships are made as soon as they look into one another's eyes and find the same primal soul within each other. Their close mental connection to these beasts has led them to be able to [Command] beasts with ease."

"Orcs have a bond with animals, specifically wolves, and their original culture on Draenor included many hunting rituals. Most Frostwolves have wolf companions."

Mekkatorque
"Engineering Specialization is a defining characteristic of gnome culture, and gnome creations such as the Deeprun Tram regularly make life easier and (more or less) safer for the Alliance's citizens."

Operation: Gnomeregan
Bomb — Bombs all enemies in a selected area, inflicting Fire damage.
Goblin Dragon Gun — Deals 27 fire damage for 8 sec to all targets in a cone in front of the engineer using the weapon. That is unless it explodes.....
Super Shrink Ray — Shrinks up to 10 enemies, reducing their attack power.

Battle of Dazar'alor
World Enlarger — Mekkatorque shrinks several players for 30 sec. Full-sized players can Trample shrunk allies, inflicting damage and stunning them for 1 sec. While Shrunk you can tamper with Spark Bots. In Raid Finder difficulty, Shrunk players can not be Trampled. In Mythic difficulty, World Enlarger causes a player to become enormous.

Signal Exploding Sheep — Mekkatorque calls down a herd of Explosive Sheep that detonate after a short delay.

Wormhole Generator — Mekkatorque teleports all players near the targeted player's location. In Mythic difficulty, teleporting has side effects.
Miscalculated Teleport — A slight miscalculation leaves you freefalling about the teleport location
Discombobulation — Your genetic makeup is scrambled after being teleported leaving you polymorphed.

Engineering
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bomb
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Goblin_Dragon_Gun
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gnomish_Shrink_Ray
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/World_Enlarger
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gnomish_Poultryizer
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ult...ter:_Gadgetzan
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ult...ey%27s_Station
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gnomish_Alarm-o-Bot
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Explosive_Sheep

Muradin
Ironforge
Avatar - Increases the Physical damage dealt by the caster by 50% and enhances its armor by 50% for 15 seconds.
Battle for Stromgarde
Avatar — Increases all damage dealt by the caster by 50% and maximum health by 50%.

"Stoneform (or avatar) is a dwarven racial ability that has many effects without a downside." (I know you'd say it's the Warrior's Avatar, but they kinda overlap in terms of lore, turning you into stone).

I'm not necessarily asking for an NPC, but a lore indication that they can do so.

[Teriz]

No. It can be argued that they look, sound and behave extremely similar. They can't suddenly call upon a Naaru blessing when they weren't even blessed by them, for example.

That’s just silly. The gameplay expression would simply be the dragon having the same racials of the race they’re impersonating. Would a dragon in lore be able to copy Gift of Naaru? Who knows, and who cares. It’s possible if lore is telling us that dragons are so good at disguising themselves that others have no idea they’re dealing with a dragon.

Dude, i asked for an in-game mob.

You don’t need one. The official art shows that lorewise dragons can perform magic in humanoid form. Keep in mind that in the past some dragons impersonated mages in the Kirin Tor. It is highly unlikely they could have pulled that off if everytime they attacked or used magic they switched into a dragon.

It isn't. Forget about it. The Suramar thing is the relevant one.

The point is that the Nightborne masquerade ability would be more powerful than the dragons ability to shapeshift into a mortal.

Huh?
What am i supposed to see? The art?

See above (again).

[Triceron]

I'm not necessarily asking for an NPC, but a lore indication that they can do so.

When Dragons can live amongst mortals for generations without anyone knowing their secret, that should be enough lore indication to tell you they're really really good at their disguises.

Deathwing posed as a human noble and was set to marry Calia. He manipulated human kingdoms politically. The novel explains how he has engrossed himself in their culture, and charmed his way to the top. That is an example of human diplomacy

This exact tactic was mirrored by Onyxia who also manipulated humans through diplomacy

[username993720]

That’s just silly. The gameplay expression would simply be the dragon having the same racials of the race they’re impersonating. Would a dragon in lore be able to copy Gift of Naaru? Who knows, and who cares. It’s possible if lore is telling us that dragons are so good at disguising themselves that others have no idea they’re dealing with a dragon.

So, you're just improvising on the spot with nothing to back this up.

You don’t need one. The official art shows that lorewise dragons can perform magic in humanoid form. Keep in mind that in the past some dragons impersonated mages in the Kirin Tor. It is highly unlikely they could have pulled that off if everytime they attacked or used magic they switched into a dragon.

Very well. I agree that they can probably be in combat in human form due to the existence of Chromie, Alexstrasza and so forth...

The point is that the Nightborne masquerade ability would be more powerful than the dragons ability to shapeshift into a mortal.

What?

When Dragons can live amongst mortals for generations without anyone knowing their secret, that should be enough lore indication to tell you they're really really good at their disguises.

So can Demons. Are you suggesting they adopt the racial traits of those they impersonate too?

Deathwing posed as a human noble and was set to marry Calia. He manipulated human kingdoms politically. The novel explains how he has engrossed himself in their culture, and charmed his way to the top. That is an example of human diplomacy

Arguable. One could say that it's his characteristic trait.

This exact tactic was mirrored by Onyxia who also manipulated humans through diplomacy

"Black dragons would often take humanoid form and meddle in the affairs of mortal kingdoms in hopes of bringing about their downfall. They would attempt to turn any situation or conflict they may come across to their advantage."

"Humans are also far less sensitive to the presence of dragons than other races. Night elves, for instance, can identify a dragon with relative ease."

[Teriz]

So, you're just improvising on the spot with nothing to back this up.

The lore backs it up. Again, see Lady Prestor, Daval Prestor, Krasus, Ebonhorne, Yarzill, etc.

What?

That would should be a "would not".

"Humans are also far less sensitive to the presence of dragons than other races. Night elves, for instance, can identify a dragon with relative ease."

Krassus worked closely with Kael'thas in Dalaran, and the latter never knew he was a dragon. Deathwing infiltrated and manipulated the Orcs during the second war, and the Orcs were none the wiser.

As I said in the other thread; The hilarious part of your argumentation here is that we're pointing out the highest levels that dragons can go to impersonate mortal races. An adventurer based dragon (Dragonborne) doesn't need to go to that level. They just need to be like Wrathion or Chromie, who make no secret that they are actually dragons.

[username993720]

The lore backs it up. Again, see Lady Prestor, Daval Prestor, Krasus, Ebonhorne, Yarzill, etc.

It backs it up that they can impersonate as someone, not that they use their racial abilities. Learn the difference.

That would should be a "would not".

I guess.

Krassus worked closely with Kael'thas in Dalaran, and the latter never knew he was a dragon. Deathwing infiltrated and manipulated the Orcs during the second war, and the Orcs were none the wiser.

As I said in the other thread; The hilarious part of your argumentation here is that we're pointing out the highest levels that dragons can go to impersonate mortal races. An adventurer based dragon (Dragonborne) doesn't need to go to that level. They just need to be like Wrathion or Chromie, who make no secret that they are actually dragons.

And yet, you can't point out any racial trait exhibition.

[Triceron]

So can Demons. Are you suggesting they adopt the racial traits of those they impersonate too?

It could be possible. Why, would you argue that it wouldn't be possible?

It's the same answer for Dragons adopting racial traits. It could be possible. The same way Death Knights already adopt racial traits including ones that make no sense keeping after death, like Gift of the Naaru or Inner Peace.

Arguable. One could say that it's his characteristic trait.

Yes, it's absolutely arguable, because 'racial traits' are effectively individual characteristics that are simply commonly found amongst a certain race.

It's not like Humans having diplomacy means no other race can be diplomatic.

That is why it's an absolutely confusing argument to imply that Dragon's can't adopt racial characteristics of mortals, when most of these characteristics can arguably exist within an individual already.

"Humans are also far less sensitive to the presence of dragons than other races. Night elves, for instance, can identify a dragon with relative ease."

Wowpedia says citation needed. I'd like some clarification on that particular passage.

[username993720]

It could be possible. Why, would you argue that it wouldn't be possible?

I'd argue that i need something concrete, rather than just empty words.

It's the same answer for Dragons adopting racial traits. It could be possible. The same way Death Knights already adopt racial traits including ones that make no sense keeping after death, like Gift of the Naaru or Inner Peace.

We've gone through that already.

Yes, it's absolutely arguable, because 'racial traits' are effectively individual characteristics that are simply commonly found amongst a certain race.

It's not like Humans having diplomacy means no other race can be diplomatic.

That is why it's an absolutely confusing argument to imply that Dragon's can't adopt racial characteristics of mortals, when most of these characteristics can arguably exist within an individual already.

There's a difference between being able to talk your way through and being blessed by a race of sentient chandalier. You don't assume that when impersonating someone.

[Teriz]

It backs it up that they can impersonate as someone, not that they use their racial abilities. Learn the difference.

The gameplay reflects the lore. If the lore CLEARLY SHOWS that dragons can perfectly shapeshift into mortal races, then the gameplay reflection would be dragons having the racial traits of the races they can shapeshift into.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

[Triceron]

I'd argue that i need something concrete, rather than just empty words.

Except all the requisites and evidence you're bringing to the table are also empty words.

Nothing that you're bringing up is evidence that a Dragon can not adopt racials, or that races even need to exhibit Player Character Racial Traits to be defined as being of that race.

Not every Dark Iron Dwarf has the ability to summon a Mole Machine, and it isn't what defines them as a Dark Iron Dwarf. Why would we subject that to Dragons who pose as Dark Iron?

We've gone through that already.

No, we haven't actually. You just linked Zeliek and didn't discuss it at all.

That's empty words.

There's a difference between being able to talk your way through and being blessed by a race of sentient chandalier. You don't assume that when impersonating someone.

And if that's the case, what's the difference with addressing Dragons posing as mortal champions who are fighting alongside the Alliance and Horde? No one needs to assume they are 100% of that race they choose to disguise as.

When we're talking Player Character Racial Traits, there doesn't need to be any lore to support why a Dragon posing as a Goblin would have Rocket Boots and a Hobgoblin minion, any more than you need lore to support why a Death Knight who has been serving the Scourge would also be retaining these same things from a past life that they've thrown away.

There being no example of a Dragon clearly using racials is akin to there being no Death Knights clearly using racials prior to Wrath. You couldn't point to any Death Knight NPC and say that the Taurens kept their Tauren racials or the Dwarfs kept their Dwarf racials. They were simply Death Knight NPCs who used Death Knight abilities, with no indication they have any racials at all. They have completely adopted a new culture entirely, that of the Scourge.

The only reason Player Character DK's have Racial traits of their former races is purely gameplay reasons. There is actually no lore that supports them retaining racials after death, they're simply game mechanics that exist and even contradict their lore.

Why would a Death Knight retain diplomacy with all other races and reps just because they're a human corpse? Why would they keep 'will to survive' when they have died, and their continued existence is filled with constant torment and pain? It makes no sense. And it doesn't have to. Same applies to Dragons. Or if you want, Demons too.

[Mellrod]

The player is a new type of Chromatic Dragon, capable of changing flights at will and assuming their powers and abilities. This allows the player's character to switch between Dragonflights as easily as other classes switch between specs. The lore behind this, and the treatment of this new dragon flight is open to interpretation and development. I'm merely using it as a method in which to allow the player to swap between Dragonflights and allowing it to make sense.

I definitely think that making them members of the Chromatic dragonflight would be the right choice, as chromatics are essentially hybrid dragons that are the result of the twilight cult's magical experiments. There are plenty of examples of chromatics using the breath & powers of 2 or more other flights (e.g. Chromaggus, Gyth) but I think the class should always be considered a member of the chromatic dragonflight due to actually being a chromatic dragon. Rather than able to just switch between the other flights (i.e. broods and/or species of dragon), they are just able to either change colors and/or powers.

It's also worth noting that the majority of chromatic drakes are experimental failures, considered by Deathwing and the TH cult to be defective mutants. The first and only successfully created chromatic dragon atm is the hydra-like Chromatus, who had a separate head for each of the 5 main colors. Even more noteworthy is the fact that the Chromatic Dragonflight has access to more than just sand/fire/arcane/poison breath. Some of them can also breathe magma and lightning. Twilight dragons are also able to breathe shadow breath, void energy, and manipulate the twilight realm, so one can imagine it's plausible that a Chroma drake could also use those powers if they were crossbred from twilight drakes.

[Teriz]

I definitely think that making them members of the Chromatic dragonflight would be the right choice, as chromatics are essentially hybrid dragons that are the result of the twilight cult's magical experiments. There are plenty of examples of chromatics using the breath & powers of 2 or more other flights (e.g. Chromaggus, Gyth) but I think the class should always be considered a member of the chromatic dragonflight due to actually being a chromatic dragon. Rather than able to just switch between the other flights (i.e. broods and/or species of dragon), they are just able to either change colors and/or powers.

It's also worth noting that the majority of chromatic drakes are experimental failures, considered by Deathwing and the TH cult to be defective mutants. The first and only successfully created chromatic dragon atm is the hydra-like Chromatus, who had a separate head for each of the 5 main colors. Even more noteworthy is the fact that the Chromatic Dragonflight has access to more than just sand/fire/arcane/poison breath. Some of them can also breathe magma and lightning.

That is an interesting perspective, and definitely a possibility. I would be fine with the concept of a class solely based on Chromatic dragons.

In terms of successful Chromatic dragons, there's also Chromitus who first appeared in BFA.

[username993720]

The gameplay reflects the lore. If the lore CLEARLY SHOWS that dragons can perfectly shapeshift into mortal races, then the gameplay reflection would be dragons having the racial traits of the races they can shapeshift into.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Ok, tell me. Why would a dragon possess an ability belonging to another race? Have they been freed from the lich king? Blessed by the naaru? Been forged by the titans from stone?

Except all the requisites and evidence you're bringing to the table are also empty words.

Nothing that you're bringing up is evidence that a Dragon can not adopt racials, or that races even need to exhibit Player Character Racial Traits to be defined as being of that race.

I'm not the one making the claim, so the burden of proving is not on me.

Not every Dark Iron Dwarf has the ability to summon a Mole Machine, and it isn't what defines them as a Dark Iron Dwarf. Why would we subject that to Dragons who pose as Dark Iron?

Posing as? Definitely. Being that race? Questionable.

No, we haven't actually. You just linked Zeliek and didn't discuss it at all.

That's empty words.

Huh? That's taken from a WoWpedia page. Me throwing it into the air would be empty words. And, by the way, you acknowledged it, saying it is somehow supporting your argument.

And if that's the case, what's the difference with addressing Dragons posing as mortal champions who are fighting alongside the Alliance and Horde? No one needs to assume they are 100% of that race they choose to disguise as.

I agree. But, Teriz claims they would be granted their racials. To which i am skeptic right now.

When we're talking Player Character Racial Traits, there doesn't need to be any lore to support why a Dragon posing as a Goblin would have Rocket Boots and a Hobgoblin minion, any more than you need lore to support why a Death Knight who has been serving the Scourge would also be retaining these same things from a past life that they've thrown away.

Thrown away? Where is it said? Can they throw it away? A Tauren body structure remains the same, as well as his knowledge in herbalism.

There being no example of a Dragon clearly using racials is akin to there being no Death Knights clearly using racials prior to Wrath. You couldn't point to any Death Knight NPC and say that the Taurens kept their Tauren racials or the Dwarfs kept their Dwarf racials. They were simply Death Knight NPCs who used Death Knight abilities, with no indication they have any racials at all. They have completely adopted a new culture entirely, that of the Scourge.

You are right. We can only assume that just like how Zeliek and Morgraine retained their Paladin abilities, they also retained their racials.

The only reason Player Character DK's have Racial traits of their former races is purely gameplay reasons. There is actually no lore that supports them retaining racials after death, they're simply game mechanics that exist and even contradict their lore.

While i agree, it is arguable.

Why would a Death Knight retain diplomacy with all other races and reps just because they're a human corpse?

Because they're still good at talking? Not a good example...

Why would they keep 'will to survive' when they have died, and their continued existence is filled with constant torment and pain? It makes no sense.

Well, it was called Every Man to Himself before. It, basically, shows humanity's will to survive and triumph over their foes. Death Knights still can die a second time, you know.

And it doesn't have to. Same applies to Dragons. Or if you want, Demons too.

I don't think there's reasoning behind retaining the racial traits, but you'll have to do more than that to convince me that Dragons assume the racials of the race they are pretending to be.

[Teriz]

Ok, tell me. Why would a dragon possess an ability belonging to another race? Have they been freed from the lich king? Blessed by the naaru? Been forged by the titans from stone?

For the umpteenth (and final) time; It would be a gameplay reflection of the lore.

[Triceron]

Ok, tell me. Why would a dragon possess an ability belonging to another race?

How does it belong to another race? Clarify.

Humans have Diplomacy, does this mean all diplomacy belongs to Humans?

Gnomes have Engineering specialization. Does this mean only Gnomes can specialize in Engineering?


Racial Traits are not mutually exclusive to the races that have them. That is why it doesn't matter whether Dragons in mortal form display having racials or not, because cultures and races are not defined by Racial Traits alone.

I'm not the one making the claim, so the burden of proving is not on me.

No claim is being made. We are merely pointing out possibilities for a class that does not exist.

Posing as? Definitely. Being that race? Questionable.

And gameplaywise, it doesn't matter whether your Dragon is posing as a race. That is the point of a mortal visage.

Having Racials does not change this whatsoever. You do not have to be a Gnome to play as a Dragon that takes up Gnome form and has its racials. The end result is the same; a Player character who is represented as a Gnome through gameplay mechanics; whether they are a Gnome, an undead Gnome (DK) or a Dragon taking up a Gnome's visage.

I agree. But, Teriz claims they would be granted their racials. To which i am skeptic right now.

And it's not a claim, it's a possibility. He has been pretty clear about this in previous posts.

We're all regarding a concept that does not exist. Any talks of what can happen are merely in context of the hypothetical class, not of existing lore.

There is no Dragon class in existing lore, so we can't make claims about anything regarding its existence. You can apply this to any Class concept. How can you prove a Priestess of the Moon could be playable? You can't, because it's not actually playable. All you can do is suggest that they can be playable (hypothetical), but in no way actually prove it.

You are right. We can only assume that just like how Zeliek and Morgraine retained their Paladin abilities, they also retained their racials.

And as such, we can assume that Dragons also take on racials of the forms they take on. It can not be proven, only assumed. There is nothing wrong with posing this hypothetical any more than you are applying it to Zeliek and Mograine. The only way it would be proven is if it actually happened, like having a Death Knight playable class.

Because they're still good at talking? Not a good example...

Neither is any racial trait. They are not good examples, because they have never been mutually exclusive to races, nor do they exclusively define any race/culture. They are culturally flavoured gameplay mechanics, that's all.

Well, it was called Every Man to Himself before. It, basically, shows humanity's will to survive and triumph over their foes. Death Knights still can die a second time, you know.

And you can apply this to any Death Knight beyond the Human ones.

Like, is there a reason why Forsaken DK's can hold their breath longer under water than any other DK? They're all undead aren't they?

I don't think there's reasoning behind retaining the racial traits, but you'll have to do more than that to convince me that Dragons assume the racials of the race they are pretending to be.

The same reason you assume Zeliek retains his racials. There's no reason to, but you allow yourself to assume it, right? So why do I have to convince you of something you're already applying to other NPCs that do not have any reason or proof to suggest that they do?

This all boils down to a subjective opinion of whether you want to recognize Dragons adopting racials or not. There's no proof behind it. There's no reason to be convinced if you choose not to be. At the end of the day, racials aren't even bound to the lore, and some are clearly inconsistent to established lore.

That being said, I'd love to see Jaina lay down some haymakers regardless of what the lore says.

[username993720]

For the umpteenth (and final) time; It would be a gameplay reflection of the lore.

It can't be a gameplay reflection of the lore if there is no lore. For the umpteenth (and final) time, show me a case of a Dragon exhibiting a racial trait in game or lore.

How does it belong to another race? Clarify.

Humans have Diplomacy, does this mean all diplomacy belongs to Humans?

Gnomes have Engineering specialization. Does this mean only Gnomes can specialize in Engineering?


Racial Traits are not mutually exclusive to the races that have them. That is why it doesn't matter whether Dragons in mortal form display having racials or not, because cultures and races are not defined by Racial Traits alone.

While Black Dragons have somewhat presented a "diplomacy" (manipulation) trait by nature, they can't just acquire Engineering knowledge over night because of their transformation.
I'm talking about racial thay heavily tied to the lore of a race, like Will of the Forsaken or Gift of the Naaru.

No claim is being made. We are merely pointing out possibilities for a class that does not exist.

You may see it that way. You partner sees it otherwise.

And gameplaywise, it doesn't matter whether your Dragon is posing as a race. That is the point of a mortal visage.

Having Racials does not change this whatsoever. You do not have to be a Gnome to play as a Dragon that takes up Gnome form and has its racials. The end result is the same; a Player character who is represented as a Gnome through gameplay mechanics; whether they are a Gnome, an undead Gnome (DK) or a Dragon taking up a Gnome's visage.

I beg to differ. Racials make all the difference. That's why Glyph of Disguise, Illusion and Masquerade do not provide them.

And it's not a claim, it's a possibility. He has been pretty clear about this in previous posts.

We're all regarding a concept that does not exist. Any talks of what can happen are merely in context of the hypothetical class, not of existing lore.

There is no Dragon class in existing lore, so we can't make claims about anything regarding its existence. You can apply this to any Class concept. How can you prove a Priestess of the Moon could be playable? You can't, because it's not actually playable. All you can do is suggest that they can be playable (hypothetical), but in no way actually prove it.

Then, you need to reread your buddie's comments, because he wholeheartedly believes a Dragonborne class exists in lore and that replication of racials through diguise is a fact.
And, by the way, if you're talking about a concept and expect it to become live, then you need to back it up with some lore and game facts.

And as such, we can assume that Dragons also take on racials of the forms they take on. It can not be proven, only assumed. There is nothing wrong with posing this hypothetical any more than you are applying it to Zeliek and Mograine. The only way it would be proven is if it actually happened, like having a Death Knight playable class.

That is if they gain the abilities of the class they are pretending to be.

Neither is any racial trait. They are not good examples, because they have never been mutually exclusive to races, nor do they exclusively define any race/culture. They are culturally flavoured gameplay mechanics, that's all.

No, actually. Racial traits have lore tied to 'em:
"One of the greatest advantages that humanity possesses is their aptitude for team work and leadership, therefore they are also well known for their skills in [Diplomacy]. Their leaders proposed forming the Alliance, and even ordinary citizens know that the right choice of words means the difference between leaving a good impression and leaving a great one."

And you can apply this to any Death Knight beyond the Human ones.

Like, is there a reason why Forsaken DK's can hold their breath longer under water than any other DK? They're all undead aren't they?

Hmmm... you've brought up a good question.

The same reason you assume Zeliek retains his racials. There's no reason to, but you allow yourself to assume it, right? So why do I have to convince you of something you're already applying to other NPCs that do not have any reason or proof to suggest that they do?

This all boils down to a subjective opinion of whether you want to recognize Dragons adopting racials or not. There's no proof behind it. There's no reason to be convinced if you choose not to be. At the end of the day, racials aren't even bound to the lore, and some are clearly inconsistent to established lore.

Where are you getting this "racials aren't bound to lore"? They definitely are. You think they are arbitrarily chosen?

That being said, I'd love to see Jaina lay down some haymakers regardless of what the lore says.

Again, she doesn't use the Kul Tiran model. Therefore, her punches are likely to be like a wet noodle.

[Triceron]

While Black Dragons have somewhat presented a "diplomacy" (manipulation) trait by nature, they can't just acquire Engineering knowledge over night because of their transformation.

Why are you assuming that the Player Dragon would obtain their racial traits overnight?

We could assume that one possible origin for a Player Dragon could be one that was raised from an egg, by mortals who have raised them in secret. The race you choose is the race of mortals that raises your player character from an egg, and the culture and form you eventually adopt.

This explains most of the inconsistencies with 'adopting' a racial overnight.

You may see it that way. You partner sees it otherwise.

Then prove it. Where has he claimed it outside the context of this hypothetical class? You seem to be mixing up this thread with the other general Tinker and Dragon class thread. Constantly. Keep in mind that we're talking about his Dragonborne concept, which involves a hypothetical Dragon posing as a mortal, and assuming their form and racial traits.

No, actually. Racial traits have lore tied to 'em:
"One of the greatest advantages that humanity possesses is their aptitude for team work and leadership, therefore they are also well known for their skills in [Diplomacy]. Their leaders proposed forming the Alliance, and even ordinary citizens know that the right choice of words means the difference between leaving a good impression and leaving a great one."

And Dragons are magical beings able to not only take the forms of mortals, but integrate themselves seamlessly into their culture, as established by many examples in lore.

You could consider Mimicry to be a Dragon's racial trait.

Where are you getting this "racials aren't bound to lore"? They definitely are. You think they are arbitrarily chosen?

They're gameplay mechanics that can be inconsistent to lore. Just like Jaina not having Haymaker. There's no stipulation that says Haymaker is a racial trait of all Kul Tirans, it's just a gameplay mechanic that befits your specific Kul Tiran Player Race. Same can be said about Dark Irons having Mole Machines, Goblins having Rocketboots and Hobgoblin Bank slaves. These are specific to your player character and its origins. Not every Goblin has a Hobgoblin slave, this is specific to the Bilgewater Goblin Player characters, and specifically as a game mechanic.

Again, she doesn't use the Kul Tiran model. Therefore, her punches are likely to be like a wet noodle.

That illustrates my point that it isn't bound to Kul Tiran lore, rather it's bound to the Player Race that uses that particular Kul Tiran model. There can exist people of a certain race that do not have those racial traits, therefore racial traits do not define a race or culture. They define the Player specifically.

And whether a Dragon could adopt the racials or not is ultimately up to Blizzard to decide, just like they decided not to have Death Knights share Forsaken traits like longer underwater breathing even though it makes sense because they're Undead.