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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Dragons could absolutely exhibit those same traits. Why wouldn't they?
    What? Why would they?

    And for any particular race with a unique trait that can not possibly be mimiced by a Dragon (ie Void Elves), just omit those races from the Dragon class completely.

    Simple as that.
    Why are Void elves unique?

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    What? Why would they?
    To better interact with the mortals they take the form of. For some Dragons, for the purpose of self-expression.

    Why are Void elves unique?
    They're impowered by Void energies and have racials tied specifically to the Void powers they gained, whereas a Dragon may not have access or be willing to use Void magic. It's one reason to omit a race from the class, if we want to be consistent with lore.

    Or Blizzard can literally ignore the inconsistencies, as they already do with Death Knights keeping racials like 'Gift of the Naaru' and 'Inner Peace' when they should have lost them in death. The idea of a Death Knight having inner peace is quite contradictory to the lore, but Blizzard lets it fly anyways. So Blizzard could let Dragons have Gift of the Naaru and Spatial Rift if they wanted to.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-02-25 at 11:08 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To better interact with the mortals they take the form of. For some Dragons, for the purpose of self-expression.
    And how would they do it? Got any examples?

    They're impowered by Void energies and have racials tied specifically to the Void powers they gained, whereas a Dragon may not have access or be willing to use Void magic. It's one reason to omit a race from the class, if we want to be consistent with lore.
    Lightforged Draenei - empowered by the Light.
    Dwarves - can tap into their heritage to become stone.
    Gnomes - possess vast engineering knowledge.
    Draenei - blessed by the Naaru.
    Orcs - have an innate rage ability.
    Trolls - have an innate regeneration ability.
    Forsaken - have a racial based on their freedom from the Lich King. Have another racial based on their undead nature.

    Or Blizzard can literally ignore the inconsistencies, as they already do with Death Knights keeping racials like 'Gift of the Naaru' and 'Inner Peace' when they should have lost them in death. The idea of a Death Knight having inner peace is quite contradictory to the lore, but Blizzard lets it fly anyways. So Blizzard could let Dragons have Gift of the Naaru and Spatial Rift if they wanted to.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fou...ic)#Sir_Zeliek
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fou...cs)#Sir_Zeliek

    "The fallen paladin Sir Zeliek was unique in the fact that, while his body was forced to obey the Scourge's commands, he had managed to retain his sanity and morals despite his corruption."

    "Despite all the psychological conditioning and trauma they went through, some knights are able to act mostly like they were before their death, and a considerable number seemed to have rejoined the ranks of Alliance and the Horde militaries after their liberation from Acherus."
    Last edited by username993720; 2022-02-25 at 11:40 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    And how would they do it? Got any examples?
    They'd do it like any mortal would. I'm not quite sure what you're asking for as 'examples'.

    I mean let's look at Ebonhorn. He's got the Horns and hooves. He wears their distinct clothing. He speaks their language. He's obtained a high ranking religious position as Spiritwalker. Isn't that indicative of more than just taking up a form?

    I'm not sure how else he would portray '+25 Mining' or 'Obtains more meat and fish from gathering professions'.

    "The fallen paladin Sir Zeliek was unique in the fact that, while his body was forced to obey the Scourge's commands, he had managed to retain his sanity and morals despite his corruption."

    "Despite all the psychological conditioning and trauma they went through, some knights are able to act mostly like they were before their death, and a considerable number seemed to have rejoined the ranks of Alliance and the Horde militaries after their liberation from Acherus."
    Great, you're making my point that Blizzard can ignore lore inconsistencies to allow Dragons to take mortal form and racials.

    Glad we have an understanding.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They'd do it like any mortal would. I'm not quite sure what you're asking for as 'examples'.

    I mean let's look at Ebonhorn. He's got the Horns and hooves. He wears their distinct clothing. He speaks their language. He's obtained a high ranking religious position as Spiritwalker. Isn't that indicative of more than just taking up a form?

    I'm not sure how else he would portray '+25 Mining' or 'Obtains more meat and fish from gathering professions'.
    I'm not talking about Highmountains, as most of their racials derive from their stature. I'm talking about the other races with unique racials.

    Great, you're making my point that Blizzard can ignore lore inconsistencies to allow Dragons to take mortal form and racials.

    Glad we have an understanding.
    Lore inconsistencies? From the very beginning?
    You still haven't provided any example of a Dragon assuming the unique racial capabilities of a form they're taking.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Lore inconsistencies? From the very beginning?
    You still haven't provided any example of a Dragon assuming the unique racial capabilities of a form they're taking.
    Again, I'm not quite sure what you're asking for as examples.

    Do you want to see Chromie use Escape Artist or something? Is this what you're talking about?

    Does dancing count? Because Chromie dances like a Female Gnome, if you consider that a racial capability of a form she's taking.

    It's kinda difficult to really understand what you're asking, because as I pointed out, most NPCs don't display Racials. Racials are player character gameplay mechanics. Jaina is Kul Tiran and she doesn't even display any of the unique racial capabilities of Kul Tirans. How would one prove that Jaina is racially Kul Tiran?


    If you can prove to me Jaina is Kul Tiran through her racial capabilities, then maybe that might help me understand what you're asking of Dragons.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-02-26 at 12:19 AM.

  7. #207
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No, they can't. It's just your assumption. Fooling someone succesfully doesn't mean you are what you are trying to disguise as.
    Again, the argument can be made that they fool people so well BECAUSE they have the racial traits of the mortals they're impersonating.

    I'm talking in WoW.
    Official Blizzard art of Korialstrasz, a Red Dragon;



    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Korialstrasz


    I was talking about the scrapped racial.
    Okay, how is that relevant?


    No, it means you look like one. Give me an example of them exhibiting a racial trait of a form they take.
    See above.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, I'm not quite sure what you're asking for as examples.

    Do you want to see Chromie use Escape Artist or something? Is this what you're talking about?
    Yes.

    Does dancing count? Because Chromie dances like a Female Gnome, if you consider that a racial capability of a form she's taking.
    That's a derivative of her model and a learned thing.

    It's kinda difficult to really understand what you're asking, because as I pointed out, most NPCs don't display Racials. Racials are player character gameplay mechanics. Jaina is Kul Tiran and she doesn't even display any of the unique racial capabilities of Kul Tirans. How would one prove that Jaina is racially Kul Tiran?
    Did you completely disregard my previous comment like you never replied to it?
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53614559

    If you can prove to me Jaina is Kul Tiran through her racial capabilities, then maybe that might help me understand what you're asking of Dragons.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, the argument can be made that they fool people so well BECAUSE they have the racial traits of the mortals they're impersonating.
    No. It can be argued that they look, sound and behave extremely similar. They can't suddenly call upon a Naaru blessing when they weren't even blessed by them, for example.

    Official Blizzard art of Korialstrasz, a Red Dragon;



    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Korialstrasz
    Dude, i asked for an in-game mob.

    Okay, how is that relevant?
    It isn't. Forget about it. The Suramar thing is the relevant one.

    See above.
    Huh?
    What am i supposed to see? The art?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Did you completely disregard my previous comment like you never replied to it?
    Cherry picked examples don't apply to all NPCs.

    Can you show me where Thrall uses his racials? Where Mekkatorque uses his? When Muradin uses his in WoW?

    They don't, because they're NPCs.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Cherry picked examples don't apply to all NPCs.
    You said it didn't apply to NPCs at all and that it's not part of the lore, but a gameplay aspect. You were shown to be wrong. You can't expect all NPCs to have it.

    Can you show me where Thrall uses his racials? Where Mekkatorque uses his? When Muradin uses his in WoW?

    They don't, because they're NPCs.
    Thrall
    Companion(s) Snowsong (hunting partner)

    "For reasons unknown, orcs also share a great natural affinity with animals. Many animal-orc friendships are made as soon as they look into one another's eyes and find the same primal soul within each other. Their close mental connection to these beasts has led them to be able to [Command] beasts with ease."

    "Orcs have a bond with animals, specifically wolves, and their original culture on Draenor included many hunting rituals. Most Frostwolves have wolf companions."

    Mekkatorque
    "Engineering Specialization is a defining characteristic of gnome culture, and gnome creations such as the Deeprun Tram regularly make life easier and (more or less) safer for the Alliance's citizens."

    Operation: Gnomeregan
    Bomb — Bombs all enemies in a selected area, inflicting Fire damage.
    Goblin Dragon Gun — Deals 27 fire damage for 8 sec to all targets in a cone in front of the engineer using the weapon. That is unless it explodes.....
    Super Shrink Ray — Shrinks up to 10 enemies, reducing their attack power.

    Battle of Dazar'alor
    World Enlarger — Mekkatorque shrinks several players for 30 sec. Full-sized players can Trample shrunk allies, inflicting damage and stunning them for 1 sec. While Shrunk you can tamper with Spark Bots. In Raid Finder difficulty, Shrunk players can not be Trampled. In Mythic difficulty, World Enlarger causes a player to become enormous.

    Signal Exploding Sheep — Mekkatorque calls down a herd of Explosive Sheep that detonate after a short delay.

    Wormhole Generator — Mekkatorque teleports all players near the targeted player's location. In Mythic difficulty, teleporting has side effects.
    Miscalculated Teleport — A slight miscalculation leaves you freefalling about the teleport location
    Discombobulation — Your genetic makeup is scrambled after being teleported leaving you polymorphed.

    Engineering
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bomb
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Goblin_Dragon_Gun
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gnomish_Shrink_Ray
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/World_Enlarger
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gnomish_Poultryizer
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ult...ter:_Gadgetzan
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ult...ey%27s_Station
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gnomish_Alarm-o-Bot
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Explosive_Sheep

    Muradin
    Ironforge
    Avatar - Increases the Physical damage dealt by the caster by 50% and enhances its armor by 50% for 15 seconds.
    Battle for Stromgarde
    Avatar — Increases all damage dealt by the caster by 50% and maximum health by 50%.

    "Stoneform (or avatar) is a dwarven racial ability that has many effects without a downside." (I know you'd say it's the Warrior's Avatar, but they kinda overlap in terms of lore, turning you into stone).

    I'm not necessarily asking for an NPC, but a lore indication that they can do so.

  11. #211
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No. It can be argued that they look, sound and behave extremely similar. They can't suddenly call upon a Naaru blessing when they weren't even blessed by them, for example.
    That’s just silly. The gameplay expression would simply be the dragon having the same racials of the race they’re impersonating. Would a dragon in lore be able to copy Gift of Naaru? Who knows, and who cares. It’s possible if lore is telling us that dragons are so good at disguising themselves that others have no idea they’re dealing with a dragon.

    Dude, i asked for an in-game mob.
    You don’t need one. The official art shows that lorewise dragons can perform magic in humanoid form. Keep in mind that in the past some dragons impersonated mages in the Kirin Tor. It is highly unlikely they could have pulled that off if everytime they attacked or used magic they switched into a dragon.

    It isn't. Forget about it. The Suramar thing is the relevant one.
    The point is that the Nightborne masquerade ability would be more powerful than the dragons ability to shapeshift into a mortal.

    Huh?
    What am i supposed to see? The art?
    See above (again).

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I'm not necessarily asking for an NPC, but a lore indication that they can do so.
    When Dragons can live amongst mortals for generations without anyone knowing their secret, that should be enough lore indication to tell you they're really really good at their disguises.

    Deathwing posed as a human noble and was set to marry Calia. He manipulated human kingdoms politically. The novel explains how he has engrossed himself in their culture, and charmed his way to the top. That is an example of human diplomacy

    This exact tactic was mirrored by Onyxia who also manipulated humans through diplomacy
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-02-26 at 04:55 PM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That’s just silly. The gameplay expression would simply be the dragon having the same racials of the race they’re impersonating. Would a dragon in lore be able to copy Gift of Naaru? Who knows, and who cares. It’s possible if lore is telling us that dragons are so good at disguising themselves that others have no idea they’re dealing with a dragon.
    So, you're just improvising on the spot with nothing to back this up.

    You don’t need one. The official art shows that lorewise dragons can perform magic in humanoid form. Keep in mind that in the past some dragons impersonated mages in the Kirin Tor. It is highly unlikely they could have pulled that off if everytime they attacked or used magic they switched into a dragon.
    Very well. I agree that they can probably be in combat in human form due to the existence of Chromie, Alexstrasza and so forth...

    The point is that the Nightborne masquerade ability would be more powerful than the dragons ability to shapeshift into a mortal.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    When Dragons can live amongst mortals for generations without anyone knowing their secret, that should be enough lore indication to tell you they're really really good at their disguises.
    So can Demons. Are you suggesting they adopt the racial traits of those they impersonate too?

    Deathwing posed as a human noble and was set to marry Calia. He manipulated human kingdoms politically. The novel explains how he has engrossed himself in their culture, and charmed his way to the top. That is an example of human diplomacy
    Arguable. One could say that it's his characteristic trait.

    This exact tactic was mirrored by Onyxia who also manipulated humans through diplomacy
    "Black dragons would often take humanoid form and meddle in the affairs of mortal kingdoms in hopes of bringing about their downfall. They would attempt to turn any situation or conflict they may come across to their advantage."

    "Humans are also far less sensitive to the presence of dragons than other races. Night elves, for instance, can identify a dragon with relative ease."

  14. #214
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, you're just improvising on the spot with nothing to back this up.
    The lore backs it up. Again, see Lady Prestor, Daval Prestor, Krasus, Ebonhorne, Yarzill, etc.


    What?
    That would should be a "would not".


    "Humans are also far less sensitive to the presence of dragons than other races. Night elves, for instance, can identify a dragon with relative ease."
    Krassus worked closely with Kael'thas in Dalaran, and the latter never knew he was a dragon. Deathwing infiltrated and manipulated the Orcs during the second war, and the Orcs were none the wiser.

    As I said in the other thread; The hilarious part of your argumentation here is that we're pointing out the highest levels that dragons can go to impersonate mortal races. An adventurer based dragon (Dragonborne) doesn't need to go to that level. They just need to be like Wrathion or Chromie, who make no secret that they are actually dragons.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The lore backs it up. Again, see Lady Prestor, Daval Prestor, Krasus, Ebonhorne, Yarzill, etc.
    It backs it up that they can impersonate as someone, not that they use their racial abilities. Learn the difference.

    That would should be a "would not".
    I guess.

    Krassus worked closely with Kael'thas in Dalaran, and the latter never knew he was a dragon. Deathwing infiltrated and manipulated the Orcs during the second war, and the Orcs were none the wiser.

    As I said in the other thread; The hilarious part of your argumentation here is that we're pointing out the highest levels that dragons can go to impersonate mortal races. An adventurer based dragon (Dragonborne) doesn't need to go to that level. They just need to be like Wrathion or Chromie, who make no secret that they are actually dragons.
    And yet, you can't point out any racial trait exhibition.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So can Demons. Are you suggesting they adopt the racial traits of those they impersonate too?
    It could be possible. Why, would you argue that it wouldn't be possible?

    It's the same answer for Dragons adopting racial traits. It could be possible. The same way Death Knights already adopt racial traits including ones that make no sense keeping after death, like Gift of the Naaru or Inner Peace.

    Arguable. One could say that it's his characteristic trait.
    Yes, it's absolutely arguable, because 'racial traits' are effectively individual characteristics that are simply commonly found amongst a certain race.

    It's not like Humans having diplomacy means no other race can be diplomatic.

    That is why it's an absolutely confusing argument to imply that Dragon's can't adopt racial characteristics of mortals, when most of these characteristics can arguably exist within an individual already.

    "Humans are also far less sensitive to the presence of dragons than other races. Night elves, for instance, can identify a dragon with relative ease."
    Wowpedia says citation needed. I'd like some clarification on that particular passage.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-02-26 at 06:07 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It could be possible. Why, would you argue that it wouldn't be possible?
    I'd argue that i need something concrete, rather than just empty words.

    It's the same answer for Dragons adopting racial traits. It could be possible. The same way Death Knights already adopt racial traits including ones that make no sense keeping after death, like Gift of the Naaru or Inner Peace.
    We've gone through that already.

    Yes, it's absolutely arguable, because 'racial traits' are effectively individual characteristics that are simply commonly found amongst a certain race.

    It's not like Humans having diplomacy means no other race can be diplomatic.

    That is why it's an absolutely confusing argument to imply that Dragon's can't adopt racial characteristics of mortals, when most of these characteristics can arguably exist within an individual already.
    There's a difference between being able to talk your way through and being blessed by a race of sentient chandalier. You don't assume that when impersonating someone.

  18. #218
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    It backs it up that they can impersonate as someone, not that they use their racial abilities. Learn the difference.
    The gameplay reflects the lore. If the lore CLEARLY SHOWS that dragons can perfectly shapeshift into mortal races, then the gameplay reflection would be dragons having the racial traits of the races they can shapeshift into.

    You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I'd argue that i need something concrete, rather than just empty words.
    Except all the requisites and evidence you're bringing to the table are also empty words.

    Nothing that you're bringing up is evidence that a Dragon can not adopt racials, or that races even need to exhibit Player Character Racial Traits to be defined as being of that race.

    Not every Dark Iron Dwarf has the ability to summon a Mole Machine, and it isn't what defines them as a Dark Iron Dwarf. Why would we subject that to Dragons who pose as Dark Iron?

    We've gone through that already.
    No, we haven't actually. You just linked Zeliek and didn't discuss it at all.

    That's empty words.

    There's a difference between being able to talk your way through and being blessed by a race of sentient chandalier. You don't assume that when impersonating someone.
    And if that's the case, what's the difference with addressing Dragons posing as mortal champions who are fighting alongside the Alliance and Horde? No one needs to assume they are 100% of that race they choose to disguise as.

    When we're talking Player Character Racial Traits, there doesn't need to be any lore to support why a Dragon posing as a Goblin would have Rocket Boots and a Hobgoblin minion, any more than you need lore to support why a Death Knight who has been serving the Scourge would also be retaining these same things from a past life that they've thrown away.

    There being no example of a Dragon clearly using racials is akin to there being no Death Knights clearly using racials prior to Wrath. You couldn't point to any Death Knight NPC and say that the Taurens kept their Tauren racials or the Dwarfs kept their Dwarf racials. They were simply Death Knight NPCs who used Death Knight abilities, with no indication they have any racials at all. They have completely adopted a new culture entirely, that of the Scourge.

    The only reason Player Character DK's have Racial traits of their former races is purely gameplay reasons. There is actually no lore that supports them retaining racials after death, they're simply game mechanics that exist and even contradict their lore.

    Why would a Death Knight retain diplomacy with all other races and reps just because they're a human corpse? Why would they keep 'will to survive' when they have died, and their continued existence is filled with constant torment and pain? It makes no sense. And it doesn't have to. Same applies to Dragons. Or if you want, Demons too.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-02-26 at 06:30 PM.

  20. #220
    The player is a new type of Chromatic Dragon, capable of changing flights at will and assuming their powers and abilities. This allows the player's character to switch between Dragonflights as easily as other classes switch between specs. The lore behind this, and the treatment of this new dragon flight is open to interpretation and development. I'm merely using it as a method in which to allow the player to swap between Dragonflights and allowing it to make sense.
    I definitely think that making them members of the Chromatic dragonflight would be the right choice, as chromatics are essentially hybrid dragons that are the result of the twilight cult's magical experiments. There are plenty of examples of chromatics using the breath & powers of 2 or more other flights (e.g. Chromaggus, Gyth) but I think the class should always be considered a member of the chromatic dragonflight due to actually being a chromatic dragon. Rather than able to just switch between the other flights (i.e. broods and/or species of dragon), they are just able to either change colors and/or powers.

    It's also worth noting that the majority of chromatic drakes are experimental failures, considered by Deathwing and the TH cult to be defective mutants. The first and only successfully created chromatic dragon atm is the hydra-like Chromatus, who had a separate head for each of the 5 main colors. Even more noteworthy is the fact that the Chromatic Dragonflight has access to more than just sand/fire/arcane/poison breath. Some of them can also breathe magma and lightning. Twilight dragons are also able to breathe shadow breath, void energy, and manipulate the twilight realm, so one can imagine it's plausible that a Chroma drake could also use those powers if they were crossbred from twilight drakes.
    Last edited by Mellrod; 2022-02-26 at 06:31 PM.
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