Do you want Tinkers or a Dragon class more?

[Ielenia]

Because you're begging the question for the purpose of dismissing the idea that they would, which is indicated by your follow up question of whether a wolf could sufficiently handle a dagger.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, in an attempt to demonize me.

You said "Wrathion prefers himself in human form" and used his appearance before the Carapace of N'Zoth fight as evidence of your claims, saying that he transformed into a human form because he prefers to be in human form, and I pointed out the possibility that he has done so not because he "prefers to be in human form" but to keep his much larger dragon form from being entangled in all those tentacles that were coming to fight him, and because handling such a small weapon as a human-sized creature is better than a massive creature whose pinky finger is bigger than the aforementioned weapon.

To which you then went the absurd route of "then why didn't he just turn into a wolf, cat or bird?" And then I asked if we ever saw a dragon turn into anything other than a humanoid.

So I'll repeat the question: have we seen or have any records of dragons turning into any animal form?

[Triceron]

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, in an attempt to demonize me.

Eh?

So I'll repeat the question: have we seen or have any records of dragons turning into any animal form?

And I will respond more clearly then.

Does it matter if we have or not? Would it impact the possibility of doing so?

I mean just the same, if not some other animal, why not just a smaller dragon then? I'd assume they would be able to change their shape and size to anything they wish if they can turn into humanoids. Such is suggested through the 'Visage Day' lore explanations, that they get to pick and choose what forms to take. I wouldn't imagine that being limited to humanoids.

[Landrisser]

New class? They can barely be bothered to improve the current ones. So many specs feel outdated to play and have really terrible animations and spell effects. We haven’t had a gameplay/class overhaul in a long time.

[Triceron]

Its like going into a "what do you want the next expansion to be about" discussion and saying "i dont want a new expansion". Its like.. ok?

Its a valid viewpoint but it adds nothing to the discussion

I may not agree with people who say 'no more classes', but I wouldn't dismiss them either.

And to be frank, the most realistic scenario is that we're not gonna get a new class in the next expansion. The chances are actually stacked against it, if Ion Hazzikostas is game director. His focus is on maintaining the end game, and his strengths are in keeping end game content running. If the rumors are true, they might be skipping a new class next expansion as well.

I want to see a new class. I'm a massive fan of new classes. And frankly, I have zero confidence that the current design team has any initiative in them to push out a new class. Most of the guys behind the innovative designs behind WoW are either working on other projects, or no longer working at Blizzard. WoW today is a shell of what it used to be, built to maintain the parasitic design that Legion established. Sad, but true.

[Ielenia]

Does it matter if we have or not? Would it impact the possibility of doing so?

It matters to your claim of "why didn't it just turn into a wolf, a cat or a bird". It impacts the probability of your claim.

I mean just the same, if not some other animal, why not just a smaller dragon then?

The question stands: have we seen or have any records of dragons turning themselves into a smaller dragon form?

I'd assume they would be able to change their shape and size to anything they wish if they can turn into humanoids. Such is suggested through the 'Visage Day' lore explanations, that they get to pick and choose what forms to take. I wouldn't imagine that being limited to humanoids.

If I read the summary of the Visage Day story right, then I don't think dragons can change form into anything they want anytime they want, considering there is a whole ritual and incantation that needs to be done.

[Triceron]

The question stands: have we seen or have any records of dragons turning themselves into a smaller dragon form?

All the time, considering the scale of Dragons is portrayed inconsistently always.

Look at Deathwing appearing in any in-game cinematic like when he wrestled with Alexstrasza, then the more realistic size of the Raid where we fight on his back.

If I read the summary of the Visage Day story right, then I don't think dragons can change form into anything they want anytime they want, considering there is a whole ritual and incantation that needs to be done.

She recites a spell. Mountain out of a molehill?

[Ielenia]

All the time, considering the scale of Dragons is portrayed inconsistently always.

Look at Deathwing appearing in any in-game cinematic like when he wrestled with Alexstrasza, then the more realistic size of the Raid where we fight on his back.

Goes back to what I'm talking about in another thread: that can be argued to be "rule of cool" size changes.

If dragons could make their draconic forms smaller... it begs the question why they never did do. We have dragons in captivity that could have escaped by changing sizes. We have Wrathion that could have just made himself into a smaller dragon during Ny'alotha, but didn't. Etc, etc.

She recites a spell. Mountain out of a molehill?

No. The spell and ritual are important. Otherwise we wouldn't have this much important put into it for a story around it.

[Triceron]

Goes back to what I'm talking about in another thread: that can be argued to be "rule of cool" size changes.

If dragons could make their draconic forms smaller... it begs the question why they never did do.

Again, does that matter at all? We still come to the point where they prefer to use Humanoid form as a 'smaller form' when it comes to it. Whether they can use any other smaller form or not, Humanoid is the go-to smaller form.

That we never saw any other scaled down dragon form or other animal shows that they have an exclusive preference to Humanoid forms, considering even Wrathion as a whelpling chose a humanoid form as well.

No. The spell and ritual are important. Otherwise we wouldn't have this much important put into it for a story around it.

It was a short story by Danuser.

Wrathion chose a humanoid form before he met any other dragons. You really think Visage day rituals are that necessary?

[Ielenia]

Again, does that matter at all? We still come to the point where they prefer to use Humanoid form as a 'smaller form' when it comes to it. Whether they can use any other smaller form or not, Humanoid is the go-to smaller form.

It matters for your original claim, that Wrathion changed into human form when confronting N'Zoth's carapace because you claim he prefers being humanoid. And I pointed out that maybe he turned into a humanoid figure because he wanted to evade capture from all those tentacles that came at him. I honestly don't know why you're so intently on denying that possibility.

It was a short story by Danuser.

And? Are you going to claim it's non-canon because it's a short story? Or because it was written by Danuser? Or because it was part of an anthology? Or all of the above? If not, I don't see any reason to even make that mention in the first place.

Wrathion chose a humanoid form before he met any other dragons. You really think Visage day rituals are that necessary?

Maybe. Maybe not. But I still stand that dragons cannot shape-change into anything other than their "mortal visage", considering we have never seen an example of a dragon turning into something other than their "mortal visage", even into different humanoids. At least to my knowledge.

[Triceron]

It matters for your original claim, that Wrathion changed into human form when confronting N'Zoth's carapace because you claim he prefers being humanoid. And I pointed out that maybe he turned into a humanoid figure because he wanted to evade capture from all those tentacles that came at him. I honestly don't know why you're so intently on denying that possibility.

You're bad faithing this argument into a spiral of obscurity, focusing on the unimportant part of the discussion.

i ask you, does it matter. And your answer just circles around to something I said, rather than addressing the actual ppint
Does it matter what form a Dragon can take outside of a Humanoid form? The point I've made is they prefer to use Humanoid form when it suits them best, as a smaller form rather than literally anything else.

You're just asking a bunch of tangents that don't affect thr point, because the questions don't have answers nor would they matter if they did. My point is regardless of whatever they can turn into, Wrathion chose to turn into a smaller human form rather than stay in Dragon form or take on any other possible form. He chose humanoid.

And? Are you going to claim it's non-canon because it's a short story? Or because it was written by Danuser? Or because it was part of an anthology? Or all of the above? If not, I don't see any reason to even make that mention in the first place.

I'm going to claim you have no leg to stand when you say a ritual incantation is inportant when I literally point out Wrathion was fully capable of choosing a humanoid form without an official 'Visage Day' ritual. No one else is making a claim that it could be important except you.

I doubt any player Dragon race would even need to go through this. I merely made a point that Visage Day story explains that Dragons get to choose their forms, while you're fixated on a ritual that doesn't even apply to the main Dragon character we've been discussing.

Maybe. Maybe not. But I still stand that dragons cannot shape-change into anything other than their "mortal visage", considering we have never seen an example of a dragon turning into something other than their "mortal visage", even into different humanoids. At least to my knowledge.

So that still supports my argument that humanoid is preferred over any other form (their Dragon form specifically in this case) when it is necessary to become 'smaller'. I mean we're literally talking about semantics here st this point. What do you expect me to say, he changed into a smaller humanoid form instead of staying as a larger dragon because he doesn't prefer to?. Well then, what would he prefer instead of a Humanoid?. We're circling back to the same thing here. He chose a smaller Humanoid form over any other possibility, which includes simply staying in Dragon form. In that moment, he preferred Humanoid form over staying as a Dragon.

[Ielenia]

You're bad faithing this argument into a spiral of obscurity, focusing on the unimportant part of the discussion.

I'm not, though. I simply offered a simple, viable and probable alternate explanation as to why Wrathion turned into human moments before being engulfed in tentacles as we approach the Carapace of N'Zoth boss. Which you, for some unfathomable reason, apparently refuse to accept as a possibility.

If anyone is "bad faithing" this, it's you, when you went into absurd tirades of "why not turn into a wolf or cat or bird".

I'm going to claim you have no leg to stand when you say a ritual incantation is inportant when I literally point out Wrathion was fully capable of choosing a humanoid form without an official 'Visage Day' ritual. No one else is making a claim that it could be important except you.

How about you simply answer the question instead of doing the written equivalent of filibustering? What was the need to mention that "Visage Day" is a short story written by Danuser?

So that still supports my argument that humanoid is preferred over any other form (their Dragon form specifically in this case) when it is necessary to become 'smaller'.

It also supports my argument that dragons cannot change into any other form than their chosen "mortal visage" since we never saw them take any other form than what they originally chose as their "mortal visage".

I mean we're literally talking about semantics here st this point. What do you expect me to say, he changed into a smaller humanoid form instead of staying as a larger dragon because he doesn't prefer to?

If that is truly what you believe my argument to be, then you're displaying yourself to be as dishonest as you're accusing me to be, considering that was never my argument in the first place.

[Triceron]

I'm not, though. I simply offered a simple, viable and probable alternate explanation as to why Wrathion turned into human moments before being engulfed in tentacles as we approach the Carapace of N'Zoth boss. Which you, for some unfathomable reason, apparently refuse to accept as a possibility.

It's bad faith because you're literally agreeing with my point, while trying to argue that I'm wrong.

I provided an example where Wrathion will prefer to use Humanoid form in combat when it is necessary, and your 'alternate explanation' was literally exactly the same condition I said above. Changing i to a Humanoid to avoid the tentacles means he preferred to change into a humanoid instead of staying as a Dragon.

I then replied to you that we could be talking about him able to turn into any other possible creature but Humanoid is the one that was the one he chose, the one he preferred over staying as a Dragon. If you don't believe he could turn into anything else, then just say so from the beginning. The rest of this back and forth is pointless since it ultimately doesn't matter what else he turned into, he turned into a smaller humanoid in that example.

If anyone is "bad faithing" this, it's you, when you went into absurd tirades of "why not turn into a wolf or cat or bird".

How is that a bad faith argument? I was not privy to knowing you don't believe that can turn into anything other than a humanoid.

Instead of outright saying 'I don't believe he can' you genuinely asked a question, got a response, and proceeded to use that as a means to attack me for 'lying'. If you were so sure about it from the beginning, why ask, only to then affirm that you never believed he could?

If that is truly what you believe my argument to be, then you're displaying yourself to be as dishonest as you're accusing me to be, considering that was never my argument in the first place.

You begged a question you outright did not believe possible.

Come now, your alternate explanation was still the same point I was making. 'Maybe he did it to avoid tentacles', meaning he still preferred a Humanoid form over his natural Dragon form when necessary. The alternative explanation you provided doesn't change the context of my point. He is fully comfortable with using the humanoid form, even when necessary in combat. It's an example that illustrates why a Dragon wouldn't merely fight in dragon form all the time.

I see this as you having replied 'well maybe you're wrong' and providing an alternate explanation that still illustrated my point.

I mean, should I have taken your reply as you reinforcing my point, or trying to counter it? I assumed you were countering it since you say you are providing an 'alternate explanation'.

[Alkizon]

cocomen2
Stroke? pff nope, but funny laugh for sure just same way like mech@gNomes did.

So, you're here being laughing, but with their current art team, you have every chance to get something like this:



No, really... not that I want to take part in discussion itself, but dragon class doesn't suit me for the same reason that I'm not into DHs (and some of you probably remember, what it's about). As for tinkers, then what else will be write Teriz about? Voted "another one", although, in essence, I remain with my first and base recommendation, first put class' hierarchy/subordination design in order before any move forward.

[Nalam the Venom]

I want them to buff or reworki both Unholy DK and enhancement shaman.

Those 2 are often bottom tier dps.

I rather want that than a new class.

[cocomen2]

No, really... not that I want to take part in discussion itself, but dragon class doesn't suit me for the same reason that I'm not into DHs (and some of you probably remember what is it for). As for tinkers, then what else will be write Teriz about? Voted "another one", although, in essence, I remain with my first and base recommendation, first put class' hierarchy/subordination design in order before any move forward.

1) Teriz using Dragon class as his Scapegoat, its like "Oh so dragon class isn't an option then choose Tinker" as if there only two of them to choose.

2) And its so funny to see him calling Dragonsworn and Drakonids a slaves of Dragons; while he demands playable dragon with his DragonBourne, does he wants to be owner of slaves? more points to never allowing playable dragons be playable to weak minded players.

[Teriz]

1) Teriz using Dragon class as his Scapegoat, its like "Oh so dragon class isn't an option then choose Tinker" as if there only two of them to choose.

No, my point is that I would like to see both classes in the game.

2) And its so funny to see him calling Dragonsworn and Drakonids a slaves of Dragons; while he demands playable dragon with his DragonBourne, does he wants to be owner of slaves? more points to never allowing playable dragons be playable to weak minded players.

That's exactly what Drakonids are, but a Dragonborne player wouldn't have anything to do with that since they would be Chromatic dragons, and there are no longer any chromatic drakonids.

[Okacz]

Why not both.

Drinker.

[Ielenia]

That's exactly what Drakonids are,

"Servant" is not the same thing as "slave", just FYI.

- - - Updated - - -

It's bad faith because you're literally agreeing with my point,

If you think I'm agreeing with your point, then you haven't bothered to understand what I'm writing here. Because I don't.

How is that a bad faith argument? I was not privy to knowing you don't believe that can turn into anything other than a humanoid.

And yet you assumed I did believe that?

Come now, your alternate explanation was still the same point I was making. 'Maybe he did it to avoid tentacles',

Except... it wasn't. You straight-up said that Wrathion turning into a human to plunge the dagger into N'Zoth's carapace was because he "tends to be more in human form".

[username993720]

The hints are definitely pointing towards a Tinker inclusion, but I can’t imagine that Blizzard has never considered a dragon-based class. If the Tinker winds up being shoehorned into a dragon expansion, we will know for sure that WC3 is truly the driving force behind WoW’s classes.

Why would they shoehorn tinkers into a Dragon expansion? Did they shoehorn Death Knights into WotLK? Did they do it with Demon Hunters and Legion? Or Monks and Mists of Pandaria?
By the way, we already knew it with the Demon Hunter, the third class to be added from WC3.

[Teriz]

"Servant" is not the same thing as "slave", just FYI.

Okay, I’d rather not be a servant to a dragon, and get mutated into a lizard person in the process.