Sepulcher of the First Ones World Race

[Ghost of Cow]

Not sure why any of this is contested to be honest since it's not just me saying it but the top guild too in effect.

Exactly.

Even if they don't outright verbalize it, they're saying it with the enormous amount of time spent on splits and the incredible amount of gold spent on gear buys.

Of course it matters.

[Heyimyoshyy]

Looks like Liquid maybe starting soon.

THD is streaming and so is Driney.

https://www.twitch.tv/thdlock

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly.

Even if they don't outright verbalize it, they're saying it with the enormous amount of time spent on splits and the incredible amount of gold spent on gear buys.

Of course it matters.

That's not what people seem to disagree with,

It's the take, that top 20 guilds are almost in skill level. And the only thing differentiating them is gear.

Yes the race has become about splits because of the power thresholds in getting 4pc or certain pieces like weapon or trinkets. But making a baseless claim that they are equal in skill level with proving otherwise is rather silly. I

[Ghost of Cow]

That's not what people seem to disagree with,

It's the take, that top 20 guilds are almost in skill level. And the only thing differentiating them is gear.

Yes the race has become about splits because of the power thresholds in getting 4pc or certain pieces like weapon or trinkets. But making a baseless claim that they are equal in skill level with proving otherwise is rather silly. I

Well, "skill" in these contexts - where there's enormous disparities in every aspect of the competition - is hard to nail down anyway.

Does all the time poured into these fights make a difference? Hell yes.

Does all the gear make a difference? Hell yes.

Does all the support around the organizations and assistance from all angles make a difference? Of course.

Are they also really good players? Well of course they are.

Can we objectively quantify how much more skillful a player in Liquid is than a player in Method? Or <insert top 20 guild here> or even a top 100 guild? Not so much. It's not an easy set of comparisons to make considering all the variables. Is a player in a guild that raids two nights a week for 4 hours and has no external support just automatically worse? We really can't say just from that.

[otyknip1]

I am 100% sure, that all guilds will kill jailer on mythic this week with one week more of gear (even tho most of them already have higher gear than echo to begin with).

All guilds of top20 and most of top 100 will get the kill this week, 100% sure. I mean, it's all about gear, skill is even.

[epigramx]

I am 100% sure, that all guilds will kill jailer on mythic this week with one week more of gear (even tho most of them already have higher gear than echo to begin with).

All guilds of top20 and most of top 100 will get the kill this week, 100% sure. I mean, it's all about gear, skill is even.

All of the top 100 might be stretching it, since while the top 100 has exceptional players: they often have people with real jobs and limited time.

The top 20 though is hard to not do it since those are usually obscenely good players (and if the 20th won't do it: maybe the 22nd etc.).

[Jdance]

jailer definitely is not a gear boss

[Heyimyoshyy]

All of the top 100 might be stretching it, since while the top 100 has exceptional players: they often have people with real jobs and limited time.

The top 20 though is hard to not do it since those are usually obscenely good players (and if the 20th won't do it: maybe the 22nd etc.).

So you are willing to go out on a limb and say 20 guilds will kill Jailor next reset ?

[Tonkaden]

That is very, very disrespectful to Sco.

Maybe he is to blame for the rest of the team wanting to split from him(on two different occasions, none the less), but Method reached where they are thanks to him.

As far as I know, he has been the GM of Method since their formation in Vanilla, if it wasn't for his consistency and dedication Method would have been long gone. He kept going and banging his head against the wall, working his ass off to get the guild to the top, and eventually he did. For quite a while Method were the undisputed Number 1. Echo just took over from there, but the groundwork for the success was laid by Sco, even if he was never their best player, skill wise.

I think it went over your head. I was calling Sco Tom Brady. How is that disrespectful?

- - - Updated - - -

After Echo won, they had an interview on the casting desk where Rogerbrown talked about benched players contributing to their Jailer strategy. I feel like this is a pretty stark difference between Echo and Limit. In general, I feel like Limit finds a strategy that "works" and are generally hesitant to change until they run into a wall and absolutely need to.

With that being said, Echo's p2 and p3 strategies were an unreal level ahead of Limits. Echo were seeing the boss transition to p3 at around 47.5% on most pulls before they started lusting phase 1, whereas Limit usually saw around 50.5% going into p3. I can't help but wonder how much individual player input was valued on Jailer positioning and uptime for Echo, whereas Limit really has an officer-driven top-down approach.

Limit had an entire group of players run out of range of the boss and healers for the final blood soak in phase 2, Echo never had this issue. Liquid had much worse movement in phase 3. Echo just made a wide range of optimizations that Limit just never did, and I feel like that was the deciding factor in this race.

Even when Echo did eventually confirm the fourth phase, and started lusting p1, Limit never made this change. Instead, opting to continue to lust phase 3 in an attempt to push through the phase with attempts rather than optimizations that I feel would have actually caused them to get through it.

Not trying to place blame here. I am generally rooting for Limit to win, just wanted to point out what I felt like the difference in this race was. Hopefully Limit can take some time off before really digging into their performance and improving for next time.

This had nothing to do with "unreal levels ahead" lol. Limit was holding their lust til an unoptimal time while echo lusted at the start so it would be used to its max potential + up at the end. That was the only difference. It wasnt unreal levels ahead type shit lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Limit's first actual race was Uldir and it was spur of the moment than planned.

It was their first recognized. You dont finish #10 without trying to be first. You have to put in serious time. I think the Antorus raid they were like 7th. Again, dont move the goal posts.

[Jastall]

jailer definitely is not a gear boss

Remember the good old says of people thinking he'd fall over with double leggies?

Sylvanas or Argus were bosses that just needed a bit more gear to be punched in the face. Jailer seems one of the most technical encounters Blizzard has ever designed. Hell even on Heroic he's not necessarily a boss you'll be able to munch just with more gear.


Also, the idea that the top 20 guilds are completely equal to the very top and the only difference is being handed over split runs is nonsense. Individual players in those guilds might easily be better at their class than anyone in Liquid or Echo (and I'm not just talking parses which is only part of being good) but guilds are more than the sum of their parts. Leadership, organization, the backend stuff like Weakauras and WClog crunching, motivation, all that enters into the WF race. We've seen it firsthand here where Echo remained 100% focused all race long while Liquid was far less disciplined and obviously floundered and lacked direction when they fell behind.

Not to say gear and splits aren't important, else guilds wouldn't be doing it. But it's hardly the only thing that's different when even top 20 guilds more often than not copy all their strats from WF saving them tons of time and pain.

[jackofwind]

That is very, very disrespectful to Sco.

Maybe he is to blame for the rest of the team wanting to split from him(on two different occasions, none the less), but Method reached where they are thanks to him.

As far as I know, he has been the GM of Method since their formation in Vanilla, if it wasn't for his consistency and dedication Method would have been long gone. He kept going and banging his head against the wall, working his ass off to get the guild to the top, and eventually he did. For quite a while Method were the undisputed Number 1. Echo just took over from there, but the groundwork for the success was laid by Sco, even if he was never their best player, skill wise.

Pro teams lose coaches, players, GMs, and captains - and they don't stop being whatever team they are.

It's not disrespectful to anyone. Teams are bigger than their individual members.

[Eggroll]

Pro teams lose coaches, players, GMs, and captains - and they don't stop being whatever team they are.

It's not disrespectful to anyone. Teams are bigger than their individual members.

That is true, but Sco stands out as the driving force behind Method. While he has proven to be a dickhead, even to his viewers, sometimes, I must say I admire his endurance in the face of adversity. Not only to lose the talent, but also longtime friends. I mean, when the Serenity thing happened, Rogerbrown, Perfecto and Justwait stayed loyal to Sco. Not this time around though.

I'm ready to bet Method makes 2nd place or narrow 3rd this tier.

[Jdance]

I think it went over your head. I was calling Sco Tom Brady. How is that disrespectful?

- - - Updated - - -



This had nothing to do with "unreal levels ahead" lol. Limit was holding their lust til an unoptimal time while echo lusted at the start so it would be used to its max potential + up at the end. That was the only difference. It wasnt unreal levels ahead type shit

If you knew how to read you would note that I was specifically referring to when they were both using lust in phase 3

[Tonkaden]

If you knew how to read you would note that I was specifically referring to when they were both using lust in phase 3

You incapable of having a convo without insults? Some of you act like youre literal 10 year olds. Oh noes someone disagrees, lets sling insults!!!!

When they were using lust p3, it wasnt a strat difference, it was an execution difference. They literally bait the same way and do the same things. Echo just executed better. It had ZERO to do with strategy.


On actual topic. Its looking like Method is going to finish 2nd or 3rd. Thats wild considering the full rebuild.

[Barzotti]

On actual topic. Its looking like Method is going to finish 2nd or 3rd. Thats wild considering the full rebuild.

They have been improving steadily over the course of SL: 7th in Castle Nathria, 5th in Sanctum, and they added Andy, Wildi and Speed to their roster for this race.

[Tonkaden]

They have been improving steadily over the course of SL: 7th in Castle Nathria, 5th in Sanctum, and they added Andy, Wildi and Speed to their roster for this race.

Yea its good to see. More competition is always better, even though they are still a good bit behind Echo and Limit. Cant wait for the 10.0 tier. Gonna be fun to watch.

[Barzotti]

Yea its good to see. More competition is always better, even though they are still a good bit behind Echo and Limit. Cant wait for the 10.0 tier. Gonna be fun to watch.

Actually Limit is behind Method on Jailer. Method reached p4. And it's good to see Sco managed to rebuild Method twice in the span of three expansions.

[Jdance]

You incapable of having a convo without insults? Some of you act like youre literal 10 year olds. Oh noes someone disagrees, lets sling insults!!!!

When they were using lust p3, it wasnt a strat difference, it was an execution difference. They literally bait the same way and do the same things. Echo just executed better. It had ZERO to do with strategy.


On actual topic. Its looking like Method is going to finish 2nd or 3rd. Thats wild considering the full rebuild.

hey man you realize that limit has 5 players out of distance of the boss for 30 seconds in phase 2 and echo doesnt?

[Firefox72]

Method has made some great progress today. I still think Limit will just beat them to 2nd but they look nailed on for at worst 3rd.

[Jdance]

looks like limit changed p2 strat to have no downtime now. boss will probably die today for them

[Heyimyoshyy]

looks like limit changed p2 strat to have no downtime now. boss will probably die today for them

I'm not sure, looks like they are mimicking Echo's P3 strat, and that will take some adjustment. And then P4 too.
I could be wrong and they absolutely slaughter the boss. I'm glad they aren't doing the gateway through the pillars at least before the final torment.