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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I'd argue that she's technically going through Revendreth-style repentance. She's not suffering the Maw or anything—she's just there, helping people out. It seems like it's more her repentance than her punishment—a lot of people don't really seem to like the thought, but I'm fairly fine with it (though I think she shouldn't have been remorseful in the first place since it's so out-of-character). It's the Catholic Theology approach, which essentially says that going to Hell is a self-inflicted fate that doesn't really happen to people who aren't really willing to go there in the first place. The Maw seems to follow that system, since only the people who refuse to work with their helpers in Revendreth get tossed.
    I mean, the topic has already been discussed to the death but punishing Sylvanas as she exists now has become completely senseless ever since her character was "fused" with the 100% good Sylvanas. The Sylvanas that is being "punished" now is simply not the Sylvanas that committed the deeds for which she is being punished.

    This essentially undermines the entire idea because there can now never be a genuine process of evil Sylvanas being forced to confront the consequences of her actions and suffering through them (which is the concept of punishment).

    Evil Sylvanas will never actually be punished (or redeemed) because she got deleted as a character at the end of 8.1 and that is why the story will never have a satisfying conclusion for most people.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    If any thing shadows rising might be the book to show the most woman in the wrong with Apari, Ariellia, Sira, Sylvanas, and less so but still framed as unreasonable Tyranda.
    Tyrande is shown to be very reasonable and able to listen to her advice. Thing that Anduin and Thrall are incapable of.

    What if it shows Thrall as an idiot who thinks that everything is fixed with an apology and Anduin as an idiot who thinks he can betray his allies and nothing will happen.

    But well in a way that's in character with the writing of the current Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Wait a minute... That makes me wonder: can't the Kyrian free the souls trapped in the Maw? It's obviously not inescapable anymore given the very nature of Sylvanas' charge. So it looks like Tyrande's vacuum of space temperature IQ decided that it's better to pointlessly drag out the time souls have to spend suffering in the Maw while Sylvanas yeets them out one by one for no reason other than making nu-Sylvanas atone for the actions of the Banshee Queen Sylvanas.
    punish the innocent

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Also, didn't Tyrande order her to toil until the last soul is free and she's all that remains? So she's also freeing the untold amount of souls that were hauled to the Maw before the Arbiter broke down because they were, among other reasons, a threat to Shadowlands itself?
    Release the guilty.

    I think the moral compass of the WoW writers is clear. The annoying thing is that they come out to say that they have morals. If they want to write a story about a monster that eats children, say so openly.
    Last edited by geco; 2022-03-28 at 12:37 PM.

  3. #203
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Tyrande is shown to be very reasonable and able to listen to her advice. Thing that Anduin and Thrall are incapable of.

    What if it shows Thrall as an idiot who thinks that everything is fixed with an apology and Anduin as an idiot who thinks he can betray his allies and nothing will happen.
    I’d say when you get to the point where Mieve of all people need to talk you down your framed as unreasonable.

    I also think thrall is full of shit in the book but I’d say that the way that it’s written it wants you to side with him over Tyranda, abd I don’t think anduin leaving the night elfs hanging is ever even addressed in the book.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Man, this is so bad, is like a alternate universe marvel, where the characters in the book are not the same as the characters we saw for the past years.

    - You have the prince of stormwind lecturing someone how life was mean to him, basically a piss-poor contest to see who had the hardest life.

    - Literally Sylvanas using Anduin for her therapy sessions, rly, she goes there, talk about the past, discuss with him, leave, and next time will come back and tell another story of her past, straight up therapy

    - Always trying to convince herself of the shit she done, trying to make some conflict, yet doesn't stop her being dumb enough to follow evil bad bald guy.

    - I can't help to cringe every time Sylvanus say 'little Lion", jesus, why they keep going for it.

    - Sylvanas wanting Anduin sympathy

    - I did what I did for a reason. For the greatest reason of all.; come on, shot my foot too, what a fucking overused troop.
    This line reminds me of Batman Begins where Bruce Wayne tries to act though and Falcone puts him in the place. You think you know what hardship is, cause mommy and daddy got shot? Bitch you live in a manor, have a butler and you just sit in meetings at your parents' company.

    The only context where Anduin and Sylvanas trying to come up with a Sob Story would be okay, if they had the VanCleefs and Lilian Voss there to judge how well they did.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’d say when you get to the point where Mieve of all people need to talk you down your framed as unreasonable.

    I also think thrall is full of shit in the book but I’d say that the way that it’s written it wants you to side with him over Tyranda, abd I don’t think anduin leaving the night elfs hanging is ever even addressed in the book.
    But Tyrande listened to Maiev.
    Thrall didn't listen to Voljin when he told him that Garrosh was a bad idea.
    Anduin never listened to anyone.

    That makes Tyrande one of the most reasonable characters in all of WoW.

    Encerio the dialogue is something like.
    Tyrande -I'm going to kill Sira-
    Maiev -No-
    Shandris -No mommy-
    Tyrande -Well then no-

  6. #206
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    But Tyrande listened to Maiev.
    Thrall didn't listen to Voljin when he told him that Garrosh was a bad idea.
    Anduin never listened to anyone.

    That makes Tyrande one of the most reasonable characters in all of WoW.

    Encerio the dialogue is something like.
    Tyrande -I'm going to kill Sira-
    Maiev -No-
    Shandris -No mommy-
    Tyrande -Well then no-
    Ya she listens but when you get to the point that the obsessive psycho murder is the voice of reason it’s a bit hard for me to believe that she’s not suppose to come across as a bit unhinged even if not all the way.

    The narrative is obviously suppose to be that Tyranda is in the wrong for being so mad and they try and reinforce that at every turn when it comes to shadowlands even if all of Tyranda’s feelings are totally legitimate.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya she listens but when you get to the point that the obsessive psycho murder is the voice of reason it’s a bit hard for me to believe that she’s not suppose to come across as a bit unhinged even if not all the way.

    The narrative is obviously suppose to be that Tyranda is in the wrong for being so mad and they try and reinforce that at every turn when it comes to shadowlands even if all of Tyranda’s feelings are totally legitimate.
    The psycho killer who is no longer a psycho killer because Legion literally told us to forget about it.
    Who then joined his archenemy Illidian for the greater good and swallowed his pride.
    That now he only "fails" when he tries to save one of his sisters before completing another mission.
    That he made peace with the woman who killed his sisters (Tyrande) for the good of his race.

    Maiev can give him moral lessons and forgive Anduin perfectly. (If it wasn't for Anduin you know is good incarnate and he has nothing to learn)

    Another theme of the Book is that we have two scenes of Tyrande. The first where everyone agrees with her for being so angry and even Thrall.
    The other is the one we're talking about.

    So in the book Tyrande is either right or she's wrong she can listen to others and figure it out.

  8. #208
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    @geco Tyrande was wrong, but she listened to the voice of human potential reason Shandris. So now she's completely right, in true Alliance fashion.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    @geco Tyrande was wrong, but she listened to the voice of human potential reason Shandris. So now she's completely right, in true Alliance fashion.
    In the novel Shandris is also wrong.
    In the first talk Shandris says that the Horde must be forgiven. Maiev explains that no.
    Tyrande does not forgive them in the end and Thrall agrees with Tyrande and goes to bring Sylvanas's head to her.

    Now in SL... I'm still not sure how I finish or if I finish this Night Warrior thing.

    PS: I feel like the writer specifically wanted to nullify "Shandris's human potential" and that's why she put Maiev as the influential advisor and not Shandris.

  10. #210
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I feel as if the writer specifically wanted to nullify "Shandris's human potential" and that's why she put Maiev as the influential advisor and not Shandris.
    Yeah... Too bad that the one we encounter left and right is Shandris the human fangirl - and not Maiev, whom I find remarkably more palatable.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Yeah... Too bad that the one we encounter left and right is Shandris the human fangirl - and not Maiev, whom I find remarkably more palatable.
    The worst thing is that Maiev seems to come out at the end of SL. But he doesn't seem to say or do anything.
    But the spoiler that comes out we have from last year.

    Again they did not scam.

    On the other hand at the end of the day Shandris achieves nothing. Tyrande heals herself or with the help of other NPCs.

  12. #212
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The psycho killer who is no longer a psycho killer because Legion literally told us to forget about it.
    Who then joined his archenemy Illidian for the greater good and swallowed his pride.
    That now he only "fails" when he tries to save one of his sisters before completing another mission.
    That he made peace with the woman who killed his sisters (Tyrande) for the good of his race.

    Maiev can give him moral lessons and forgive Anduin perfectly. (If it wasn't for Anduin you know is good incarnate and he has nothing to learn)

    Another theme of the Book is that we have two scenes of Tyrande. The first where everyone agrees with her for being so angry and even Thrall.
    The other is the one we're talking about.

    So in the book Tyrande is either right or she's wrong she can listen to others and figure it out.
    While I’d personally say she’s in the right id say the book and shadowlands in general say she’s in the wrong because they writers want anduin’s forget and forgive stance you be the only right stance.

    When she first meets with thrall in the book it’s from thrall perspective and he acts down right offended that Tyranda is being mean to him with his inner monologue acting as if he’s done nothing to deserve it before begrudgingly saying he’ll make up for it.

    No one at any point acts as if her feelings are reasonable or understandable the writers have gone out of there way to always make it look like she’s in the wrong even though all reason says other wise.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    While I’d personally say she’s in the right id say the book and shadowlands in general say she’s in the wrong because they writers want anduin’s forget and forgive stance you be the only right stance.

    When she first meets with thrall in the book it’s from thrall perspective and he acts down right offended that Tyranda is being mean to him with his inner monologue acting as if he’s done nothing to deserve it before begrudgingly saying he’ll make up for it.

    No one at any point acts as if her feelings are reasonable or understandable the writers have gone out of there way to always make it look like she’s in the wrong even though all reason says other wise.
    Ok I see the Thrall thing completely backwards. I see that Thrall realizes that he is an idiot to think that "offering a sincere apology" does any good.
    Because it's more Tyrande doesn't demand anything of him, it's Thrall's idea to kill Sylvanas.

    But hey, it may be that the message is lost in the translation.

    ______
    SL is strange because Tyrande is supposed to be wrong... but in the end they all decide that Tyrande is the one who has to choose.
    So everyone collectively says that Tyrande is right?

    SL it is noted that each patch is written without thinking about the others.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Much like IRL, rules in the Warcraft's afterlife seem to have been made only for losers, not for uber speshul people with high connections such as Sylv gurl. I mean, there is a literal destroyer of worlds being whipped in Revendreth, why is Sylv so !#@$ing special that 1) the Arbiter lets some random mortal judge her instead of, you know, doing his actual job, and 2) she isn't even sent to Revendreth? I was under the assumption that nobody is thrown directly into the Maw, not even the worst of the worst people. At least not while there is a functional Arbiter, although there might be a case for this Pelagos boi not being actually functional, given his anti-Sue background...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I mean, what would Revendreth time realistically look like in Sylvanas' case? She's already super remorseful and sees the error of her ways. From what I gathered, Revendreth seems to be reserved for the bad guys™ who can't accept that they're bad.
    Sylvanas is also not dead, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of the Arbiter, technically. She still has her soul and is a "living" mortal.

    That's my take on why she wasn't judged by him anyway.

  15. #215
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Ok I see the Thrall thing completely backwards. I see that Thrall realizes that he is an idiot to think that "offering a sincere apology" does any good.
    Because it's more Tyrande doesn't demand anything of him, it's Thrall's idea to kill Sylvanas.

    But hey, it may be that the message is lost in the translation.

    ______
    SL is strange because Tyrande is supposed to be wrong... but in the end they all decide that Tyrande is the one who has to choose.
    So everyone collectively says that Tyrande is right?

    SL it is noted that each patch is written without thinking about the others.
    I saw it as thrall being pissy that he’s being unfairly blamed when he thinks he and the horde did nothing wrong and instead of you know actually holding the horde accountable and doing any thing to pay back the night elf he just says he’ll kill sylvanas even though he’s not actually taking any steps to do so.

    As for the shadowlands they act like it’s up for Tyranda to choose but she already made her choice and when she did even her god said no your being unreasonable let it go and took her power away.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I saw it as thrall being pissy that he’s being unfairly blamed when he thinks he and the horde did nothing wrong and instead of you know actually holding the horde accountable and doing any thing to pay back the night elf he just says he’ll kill sylvanas even though he’s not actually taking any steps to do so.

    As for the shadowlands they act like it’s up for Tyranda to choose but she already made her choice and when she did even her god said no your being unreasonable let it go and took her power away.
    Novel:
    I just read the part
    Note Maiev is the one who drops the idea of killing Sylvanas and I had forgotten that Thrall is going to outright lie to Tyrande from the start.

    But there is nothing "frustration" about the final decision that Thrall has to make.

    Then Thrall lies to the Kaldorei... he lied to them throughout WoW is nothing new.
    _________________

    Game: that's weird.
    Why if clearly Tyrande does not let him choose and supposedly she chose renewal but then she chooses to "punish" her, that is, revenge (or at least they want to sell us that it is a punishment).

    I mean the only way to understand this is that the writers canceled the whole Elune thing because it sucks.

    The result is that when his goddess went against it... in the end her goddess was wrong (Of course written as garbage)

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Sylvanas is also not dead, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of the Arbiter, technically. She still has her soul and is a "living" mortal.

    That's my take on why she wasn't judged by him anyway.
    I mean, that can easily be fixed...
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    This is soooo bad, I'm speechless. Golden also retconned most of Alleria's cool moments during the Second War and turned her into a screaming bitch. I'm now really afraid of what else will Blizz retcon in the Second War. Thanks for the link tho.
    Forgive me if I'm wrong but is Golden really to blame for this? Does she just write what the story director tells her to?
    Seems a bit unfair to blame it on her.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasaru View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong but is Golden really to blame for this? Does she just write what the story director tells her to?
    Seems a bit unfair to blame it on her.
    According to you, what part of the book does she have control of then? Why does she put the author's name on her then?

    But let's go to the case. A professional cannot do a bad job even if they are told to do so. So she is guilty.

  20. #220
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasaru View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong but is Golden really to blame for this? Does she just write what the story director tells her to?
    Seems a bit unfair to blame it on her.
    As far as the books go they gave her major
    Plot points that she has to hit and then leave her to fill out the rest with what seems to be little over sight. They obviously don’t have some one going over the books at this point Which is why we get things like worgen tails or in this new book sylvanas being lady moon for her “silver” hair.

    Unless one of the given plot points were “make Alleria's a bitch” it’s up to golden.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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