Morality of Arthas vs Sylvanas

[Biomega]

The alternative was to high tail it with Uther and Jaina and let Mal'ganis turn ALL off Stratholme into a gigantic army of undead that would swiftly crush the rest of Lordaeron.

If this was such an easy choice, why didn't Uther and Jaina support it? One of the greatest paladins of all time was appalled to the point of risking treason by this action - makes you really struggle hard to call it the morally correct choice.

And in any event: it was one city. Even with every citizen turned into an undead, that wouldn't NEARLY have been enough to "swiftly crush the rest of Lordaeron". That's ridiculous.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Arthas was at least honest about what he was and what he was doing. Didn't try to dress it up with a veneer of "the Alliance made me commit genocide! I'm doing this all for my people! I'm actually doing this to free us all from this prison!".

[kuplo kopp]

I'm doing this all for my people!

That's exactly what he said. At least before he was cursed by Frostmourne.

[username993720]

I'm doing this all for my people!

He did do it for his people.

[Dhrizzle]

He did do it for his people.

It's for your own good! *splat* Why aren't you thanking me? *burn* This definitely evil sword that apparently killed my friend will surely help me save my people! *corrupt*

[Ielenia]

thats the single thing that isnt true: the jailer himself confirmed that none of the LKs did his bidding. all of them followed their own plans and acted independently from him. its why ner'zhul was tortured in the maw, and arthas was used as blade fuel.

I agree on a technical sense, but that doesn't mean that Arthas (and Ner'zhul, by proxy) were 100% "themselves". I do believe Arthas' personality was fundamentally changed the moment he took Frostmourne, with the sword's influence corrupting him. We did see, in Warcraft 3, that the whispers of Ner'zhul through the sword would influence Arthas, which to me seems like slow corruption.

[Dzonathan]

Is it really that hard to think that Frostmourne could slightly redirect souls fragments to a different part of the Shadowlands, and that is different to the Helm of Domination allowing direct control of the Lich King?

It is really that hard to think that Jailer would just allow a tool he went out of his way to get to not be fully utilized for domination.

Can you see Anduin making the same choice as Arthas? Also why are you comparing him to those other characters, what point are you trying to make? And what do you mean "Sylvanas had no right?" Arthas dragged her onto the path he had stepped on willingly, you saying you can't allow her a bit of bitterness about that?

Pretty sure he did gave Turalyon and Alleria the go ahead to use their respective magicks for torture.
Anduin is well on his way to do that kind of choice.
Yes, I do not allow her any bit of bitterness after all the time and deeds that have passed.

Uther and Sylvanas were not bad eggs. Past tense. Without the Jailer manipulating them into certain situations they would not have betrayed their ideals. Joining with the Jailer was the end result of his machinations, he put her in a situation that brought out the very worst. Arthas on the other hand easily went from burning a city to betraying allies and finally willingly risking corruption in return for power.

Jailer manipulating Sylvanas and Uther is not enough to deem them bad eggs.
Mal'ganis manipulating Arthas is enough to deem him bad egg.

Why? Because Arthas was easier to manipulate?
You think this is an ok conclusion?

No McGuffin to collect, no inner journey to accept his dark deeds. Just a pep-talk from Ghost-Dad and snapping a sword. Then everyone is friends again. Relatively easy.

Sounds an awful lot like what Sylvanas has going right now.
Pep talk from Uther and snapping back to reality.
Then every player has her as friendly green NPC again.
Relatively easy.

But I guess that is okay because she made sad faces?

- - - Updated - - -

Of course you would. But, it wouldn't hurt as much.

It would hurt worse.
I don't think or feel about everything same way you do.

[Eosia]

Arthas get his soule get twisted and coruppted by a Frostmourne, and become the Jailor evil minion and do horribel things, he deserve oblivion becuse he is totaly guilty for his own his evil action, regardles how twisted and coruppted his soule was becuse of Frostmourne (and the Jailors influence

Except Arthas committed atrocities before that. The Culling of Strathome, the destruction of the boats preventing his men from leaving Northrend and subsequent blaming of the mercenaries who helped him do it. The apparent killing of Muradin Bronzebeard too.

[s_bushido]

What any of them "deserve" doesn't even factor into it... Life's not fair, and not everyone gets what they "deserve" (good or bad). Hell, Arthas may not have even wound up in the Maw to be used by the Jailer if Uther and Devos hadn't thrown him there.

[Dhrizzle]

This is the sort of dishonest thinking people have to employ to defend Sylvanas at this point

Not sure how this is defending Sylvanas. Arthas being a dick doesn't diminish her actions.

[Dzonathan]

If this was such an easy choice, why didn't Uther and Jaina support it? One of the greatest paladins of all time was appalled to the point of risking treason by this action - makes you really struggle hard to call it the morally correct choice.

And in any event: it was one city. Even with every citizen turned into an undead, that wouldn't NEARLY have been enough to "swiftly crush the rest of Lordaeron". That's ridiculous.

No.

Stratholme was second-most populous city of the Kingdom of Lordaeron.

Your average medival city had 8k to 12k people in it.
Your average medival capital could have up to 50k people in it.
Your average medival village had 50 to 100 people in it.

Your average medival army of a big country was 40k people in it.

It was impossible for King Terenas to convert Lordearon population into a military force as efficiently as Scourge did.
Arthas dealing first hand with the Scourge and being an active military force in his own right likely figured it out over time.

Why didn't Uther and Jaina support it? Because they weren't pragmatic enough to make the hard choice.

[Aresk]

I don't think anyone is convinced by hamfisted retcons.
It has same convincing energy as Danuser's "Titan PoV" stunt regarding chronicles.

I'm not sure what convincing is required here. The lore is the lore, and in its present form, this is what it says. One can definitely argue that it shouldn't be what it is, as it diminishes the debate as whether Arthas was right or wrong at Stratholme, but ignoring the lore doesn't change it. Was Arthas' logic sound at Stratholme? That's a matter for debate. Did he stop people from turning into undead from infected grain? Yes. Did those people get raised into undeath anyway? Yes. Ergo, if his goal was to stop an undead army from being raised from Stratholme's citizens, he failed. If his goal was to stop people from turning due to the grain, he succeeded. Regardless, he did exactly as Ner'zhul wanted and got baited into going to Northrend to seek vengeance against Mal'ganis, serving the aims of the very thing he was trying to stop.

[username993720]

It would hurt worse.
I don't think or feel about everything same way you do.

Physical pain vs dread.

[Dhrizzle]

Doing what's necessary =/= Being a dick

Slaughtering innocents, betraying allies and willingly taking up a corrupting sword of dark power is. Arthas is no Illidan playing with fire, making and breaking alliances and operating in morally shady areas. He betrayed what it meant to be a Paladin and his path to damnation was relatively swift.

If Uther put his pride aside we might never have gotten Arthas as the LK

If Arthas had put his pride aside we definitely would have never gotten him as the LK.

[Gumble]

I agree with most of what you said, but I'd just change the part I put in bold. To me, everything Arthas did up until after Stratholme cam be tracked back to "trying to prevent more loss of life amongst his people."

You see, I believe that Stratholme broke Arthas. Having to kill so many innocent lives-- even if this was for the best for them to avoid damning them into undeath-- took a heavy toll in the prince's mind, especially since the culprit for this, Mal'ganis, has escaped justice, fleeing to Northrend. The way I see it, revenge became everything to Arthas because he needed to bring the responsible for plaguing Stratholme to justice, to 'close the case', so to speak, which is what led him to the desperate acts he committed in Northrend, such as preventing his troops from retreating back to Lordaeron after a direct order from the king, betrayed the mercenaries he hired to destroy his own ships, and took up Frostmourne.

All part of the Burning Legion-- I'm sorry, the Jailer's plan, of course.

I appreciate this answer. That act, while he may have felt there wasn't a better alternative, would have damaged anyone's mind. The amount of anger he would feel at MG for "making him do that" could definitely tilt his behavior from "defend my people" to "punish MG by any means necessary".

That plus the whispers from LK certainly could have overrode his judgement and led to him taking up Frostmourne.

Post that, his soul was compromised. Whether you believe it was "scarred", "stolen", or "partially taken".... Without more from Blizzard that is hard to say, but he was altered enough to go full bad guy pretty fast, so it had to be significant.

[Dhrizzle]

It is really that hard to think that Jailer would just allow a tool he went out of his way to get to not be fully utilized for domination.

Not if it wasn't possible or not the purpose be wanted it for. Can every item be a multi-purpose, do everything omni-tool? Also not if it wasn't his intent. Lots of people following the Jailer did so undominated including Uther (unknowingly) and Sylvanas. He originally wanted Anduin to submit without taking direct control.

Pretty sure he did gave Turalyon and Alleria the go ahead to use their respective magicks for torture.
Anduin is well on his way to do that kind of choice.

I can't remember playing that bit, can you provide more context? How "well on the way" to murdering a whole city is it?

Yes, I do not allow her any bit of bitterness after all the time and deeds that have passed.

Well tough shit I guess.

Jailer manipulating Sylvanas and Uther is not enough to deem them bad eggs.
Mal'gani s manipulating Arthas is enough to deem him bad egg.

Why? Because Arthas was easier to manipulate?
You think this is an ok conclusion?

When I said were not bad eggs I am using the past tense. That means I am referring to the way they were in the past. When we first met Uther and Sylvanas way back in Warcraft 3 they were not bad eggs. The Uther we knew back then (in the past) would not have considered betraying his Paladin ideals for vengeance. Similarly the Sylvanas we knew back then (in the past remember) would not have considered committing genocide against another race of elves and siding with a twisted death god to unmake creation. They were not bad eggs. This doesn't mean they could not become bad eggs but it took trauma and being placed in specific situations to bring out their worst sides.

Now before you get upset this doesn't absolve them of their crimes, they are still responsible for their actions but it does help understand why they did what they did. We know what made them go from being not bad eggs (in the past) to becoming bad eggs (after the machinations of the Jailer.)

Now when we met Arthas he was the type of person who would murder a city, betray his allies and take up a soul-corrupting weapon even after it apparently killed his friend. We know this because we saw him do it, taking those actions despite being told they were wrong by Uther, Jaina and Muradin.

Sounds an awful lot like what Sylvanas has going right now.
Pep talk from Uther and snapping back to reality.
Then every player has her as friendly green NPC again.
Relatively easy.

Whatever the spirits of Varian and Saurfang were they seem to have come from something within Anduin, or at least within his sword (why that sword was needed to control him I dont know, perhaps it was a mistake for the Jailer to choose it or perhaps the Domination would only work through something he already had a connection to.)

Sylvanas didn't have anything within her to snap her back around, she needed someone to come in from the outside to help guide her. She also didn't come around instantly like Anduin, there was a time-lapse sequence of unknown duration before she came around, Anduin got a quick palette swap and was ready to go.

Also, do you think Sylvanas is instantly trusted by everyone and will be stepping back into her roles as leader of the Forsaken and Warchief of the Horde?

[NachoGirl]

This! So much this!

Sylvanas was butchered and became a monster in death. She was murdered by a monster of his own making .

The atrocities Arthas committed as the Lich King were still Arthas's actions. He chose to ride his horse in the rain, dumbly, and when it fell and broke its legs, he let it suffer for hours, before finally killing it. And then he lied about it and secretly swore that he would be the weapon to make the difficult choices. That was the start of his downfall. I agree with the assessment that Strat was an impossible situation, and he did what he thought he had to. Damn, I would have done the same thing. Anyone would have, and they are lying if they say they wouldn't.

However! The bold statement that he was dominated for all other sins is just fundamentally wrong and an insult to the brillant and complex villain he was. The reason Arthas as the Lich King was so compelling and tragic, was that he WAS still in control. Deep down Arthas always wanted power. He was competitive. He was human and he had flaws. It's not just implied, but pushed into your face in a heart breaking cinematic that Arthas chooses to be the way he is when he stabs the child version of himself. The last of his humanity. Because he knows it makes him weak and he has no use of it. He then gives the same treatment to Ner'zhul. Prior to the Zovaal clearly stating that Arthas would not obey, people thought Ner'Zul was dominating him. But that is also wrong, because Arthas states numerous times that he is only listening to Ner'zul to fullfill his 'own desires.'

I love Arthas. He was a fantastic villain.

But was he a good person? No. He slept with Jaina, toyed with her heart and then dumped her when it got too 'real.' He threw that relationship into Kal'Thas's face to be cruel. He was vain, cowardly at times, egotistical at others, flippant and over all, flawed human.

To call him a 'tragic hero' is to over-simplify a nuanced character and a disservice to the amazing villain he was.

[Rhlor]

Arthas get his soule get twisted and coruppted by a Frostmourne, and become the Jailor evil minion and do horribel things, he deserve oblivion becuse he is totaly guilty for his own his evil action, regardles how twisted and coruppted his soule was becuse of Frostmourne (and the Jailors influence)

Sylvanas get here soule twisted and coruppted by a Frostmourne and become the Jailor evil minion and do horribel things, she deserve redemtion, becuse she was not guilty for here own evil action, becuse here soule was twised and coruppted by the Frostmourne (and the Jailors influence)

Is this lore interpretation right in its basic from? Or do I miss some importent detail? Or did Sylvanas get a free "get out of jail card" hence do not have to suffer the the consequences of here actions.

you forgot to purge the city, betray hid soldiers burning the ships, assassinate hid mercenaries, and nearly kill muradin. arthas was evil before he became a dk

[Celement]

Its selfish vs selfless...

Slyvannas used her people out of petty revenge destroying and killing scores of them while arthas faught desperately to save his people.

Slyvannas doing anything to save herself from justice in the afterlife after her failed suicide attempt vs arthas willing to damn himself to save those under his protection.

Faught off madness in the frozen wastes before succumbing to it vs embracing enslavement instantly cause.. I don't vague promises of power?

Slyvannas is vain selfish and stupid vs arthas who is noble and self sacrificing.

It's the contrast between a hero and a villian.

[Powerogue]

I'd say judging by the cutscene of Arthas's soul fragment disintegrating we're supposed to at least feel a bit bad that he wasn't given the possibility of redemption. I mean hell, even pre-new-arbiter, GARROSH managed to get into Revendreth, so he had a fighting chance if it wasn't for Uther. Uther will have to have that on his eternal conscience.