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  1. #61
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Now when we met Arthas he was the type of person who would murder a city, betray his allies and take up a soul-corrupting weapon even after it apparently killed his friend. We know this because we saw him do it, taking those actions despite being told they were wrong by Uther, Jaina and Muradin.
    Which is a disingenuous way of framing it, essentially supposing that every single on of Arthas' decisions were badly motivated.

    First, we have Stratholme. When people say "Arthas [was] the type of person who would murder a city", they always fail to understand that the death of the city was a foregone conclusion. This isn't just a matter of the infected grain, as we also know that Mal'Ganis was actively converting the citizens into undead. At the time there was no good option, only bad and worse ones, with Uther and Jaina taking (in retrospect) the most cruel action possible. Inaction, which Uther and Jaina chose, would have led to the entirety of Stratholme being raised into undeath, which we now know they would have been conscious for and is one of the reasons the Forsaken are so inhuman. Every person wouldn't have just died and been another member of the Scourge to march against Lordaeron, but would have been aware of their actions the entire time. The decision was either (1) purge the city and save people from undeath or (2) let the city be purged and raised into undeath. There was no third, righteous option.

    Next, betraying the mercenaries and burning the ships is where Arthas begins to tilt away from justifiable; however, these actions were in direct response to Uther's. From Arthas' perspective, Mal'Ganis and whomever was controlling the Scourge in Northrend needed to be dealt with at all costs, and whatever price he or his forces needed to pay were insignificant in comparison. In this instance, it was either stop the campaign in Northrend immediately and allow the Scourge to grow in power or do something drastic to push the campaign forward. Muradin was right to be disturbed by Arthas' action, but this wasn't some evil action for the sake of being evil, but Arthas' viewed this as being an opportunity to finish the conflict and save Lordaeron.

    Lastly, in his taking up Frostmourne, this is entirely irrelevant. Arthas reasons for taking up Frostmourne were in an attempt to find a way to kill Mal'Ganis, stop the Scourge threat, and save his people (i.e.: it was meant to be an act of self sacrifice). His actions during this time were also consistent with having good intentions, as he even attempted to heal Muradin with the Light before claiming the blade, only leaving Muradin behind when it wasn't effective. Regardless, the idea of him taking up a cursed weapon in an attempt to defeat an evil force somehow makes Arthas evil is silly.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'd say judging by the cutscene of Arthas's soul fragment disintegrating we're supposed to at least feel a bit bad that he wasn't given the possibility of redemption. I mean hell, even pre-new-arbiter, GARROSH managed to get into Revendreth, so he had a fighting chance if it wasn't for Uther. Uther will have to have that on his eternal conscience.
    I don't know if thats what the cutscene really focuses on. For the story being 'everyone deserves a second chance', they have Sylv monologue about how arthas is bad and deserves to be forgotten.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I don't know if thats what the cutscene really focuses on. For the story being 'everyone deserves a second chance', they have Sylv monologue about how arthas is bad and deserves to be forgotten.
    After spending multiple questlines telling us Uther was wrong about tossing Arthas into hell and regretting his choice.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  4. #64
    The story isn't "Everyone deserves a second chance", it's "Sylvie deserves a second chance" because the lead writer creepily pervs on her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    it's simple really, the lead writer simps for Sylvanus, so she's getting a redemption. Danuser will retcon/twist/change/w.e he can to the story and lore to make it happen.

    Watch how her "punishment" for starting a world war, genocide, betrayal, murder, mind control, resurrection without consent, blight and so on will be an "exile" into a Jailer free Maw where she will be free to find and be with her "true love" Danuser Nathanos, and I guess she'll be "saving" the night elf souls she burnt alive
    This was posted on March 8th, well before the actual events of 9.2.5 became public...good guess, or inside information?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I don't know if thats what the cutscene really focuses on. For the story being 'everyone deserves a second chance', they have Sylv monologue about how arthas is bad and deserves to be forgotten.
    Regardless of anything else Sylvanas hates Arthas with every fiber of her being; this is exactly what she'd think he deserved.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Which is a disingenuous way of framing it, essentially supposing that every single on of Arthas' decisions were badly motivated.

    First, we have Stratholme. When people say "Arthas [was] the type of person who would murder a city", they always fail to understand that the death of the city was a foregone conclusion. This isn't just a matter of the infected grain, as we also know that Mal'Ganis was actively converting the citizens into undead. At the time there was no good option, only bad and worse ones, with Uther and Jaina taking (in retrospect) the most cruel action possible. Inaction, which Uther and Jaina chose, would have led to the entirety of Stratholme being raised into undeath, which we now know they would have been conscious for and is one of the reasons the Forsaken are so inhuman. Every person wouldn't have just died and been another member of the Scourge to march against Lordaeron, but would have been aware of their actions the entire time. The decision was either (1) purge the city and save people from undeath or (2) let the city be purged and raised into undeath. There was no third, righteous option.
    Quote Originally Posted by DesignerDave
    Nope, there was always another way. To move on, to find another way, to flee and save those who were not yet plagued...

    If you fight the undead you bolster the undead forces. It's distinctly established in the story. The only reason that anyone was burning corpses is because Malganis had left, his mission accomplished. They didn't even WANT Stratholme. It was never their goal to take it...

    Even if Arthas didn't know that part, he DID know that there was a significant risk of bolstering the undead forces with his slaughter... and he wasn't slaughtering just undead, he was slaughtering civilians. If his forced had been overwhelmed at that point, they were all doomed and he'd have completely aided the undead!

    Uther and Jaina were correct, Arthas was wrong. Everything about the story tells you that Arthas was wrong. That's the whole point of The Culling... It is his turn towards true evil... Through mass slaughter.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tigJUxQmJs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I don't know if thats what the cutscene really focuses on. For the story being 'everyone deserves a second chance', they have Sylv monologue about how arthas is bad and deserves to be forgotten.
    That's why they gave everyone glum faces with sad music, Arthas's fate was shown as a bad thing. By saying his name should be forgotten it meant she could no longer lean on his actions against her as a justification for her actions.

  7. #67
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I'm not going to take DesignerDave's word when he's been resoundingly mocked for his opinion on every forum for not actually understanding the problem, especially given he went on multiple tirades trying to compare the Plague of Undeath to COVID-19 and modern pandemic response, and you don't seem to understand the problem very well either. You seem to be under this belief that Arthas thought that killing the infected would add them to the Scourge, which is contrary to what he had seen. At this point he and Jaina had killed Kel'Thuzad and destroyed undead under his control and didn't see either rise again, so he had no reason to believe this would be the case. Moreover, the assertion that "If you fight the undead you bolster the undead forces. It's distinctly established in the story." is only true because the forces you lose become the forces of the Scourge and has no bearing on the culling; there was never any indication in Warcraft 3 that the people Arthas culled would become Scourge. Again, all Arthas knew was that the people had been infected and Mal'Ganis was converting people into undead, whether Mal'Ganis actually cared about this is immaterial to the situation as the situation was still the same: purge the city and save people from undeath or let the city be purged and raised into undeath.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I'm not going to take DesignerDave's word when he's been resoundingly mocked for his opinion on every forum for not actually understanding the problem, especially given he went on multiple tirades trying to compare the Plague of Undeath to COVID-19 and modern pandemic response, and you don't seem to understand the problem very well either. You seem to be under this belief that Arthas thought that killing the infected would add them to the Scourge, which is contrary to what he had seen. At this point he and Jaina had killed Kel'Thuzad and destroyed undead under his control and didn't see either rise again, so he had no reason to believe this would be the case. Moreover, the assertion that "If you fight the undead you bolster the undead forces. It's distinctly established in the story." is only true because the forces you lose become the forces of the Scourge and has no bearing on the culling; there was never any indication in Warcraft 3 that the people Arthas culled would become Scourge. Again, all Arthas knew was that the people had been infected and Mal'Ganis was converting people into undead, whether Mal'Ganis actually cared about this is immaterial to the situation as the situation was still the same: purge the city and save people from undeath or let the city be purged and raised into undeath.
    First up there is a unit in WC3 called a Meat Wagon that harvests recently made corpses and reanimates them. There is also the Abomination unit made from stitching corpses together. Arthas slaughtering the people of Stratholme only created resources for these units.

    There is also the fact that Arthas was risking himself and his soldiers, if ambushed they would have been added to the Scourge army.

    Warcraft is hardly subtle in its storytelling and Arthas is no Illidan walking a twisted path between darkness and light. When a young impetuous character declares "I'm going to compete with that demon to see who can slaughter civilians the quickest," and his old, wise, virtuous teacher says "no, that is bad and wrong and against our principles as holy warriors," you should know it's the start of a dark path.

  9. #69
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    First up there is a unit in WC3 called a Meat Wagon that harvests recently made corpses and reanimates them. There is also the Abomination unit made from stitching corpses together. Arthas slaughtering the people of Stratholme only created resources for these units.
    Firstly, Meatwagons don't create undead, they're literally corpse catapults that throw diseased bodies at enemies. The actual reanimation is done by Necromancers after a corpse is unloaded.

    Secondly, Abominations required in-tact (or partially in-tact for this case) corpses for reanimation, which wouldn't apply to the culling as they explicitly burned the corpses afterwards (i.e.: they were destroying the corpses to the best of their ability) and if they had not acted then the entirety of Stratholme would have become undead regardless.

    Thirdly, I would like you to reiterate all Arthas knew at the time:
    - When we destroy the undead, they stayed destroyed.
    - When we killed the Necromancers, they stayed dead.
    - The grain is infected and had been delivered to Stratholme.
    - There were no visible symptoms of the infection.
    - Mal'Ganis was in the city actively converting people into undead.

    There is also the fact that Arthas was risking himself and his soldiers, if ambushed they would have been added to the Scourge army.
    This can be said for almost any decision in Warcraft 3... all campaigns are sets of risky decisions that were made to try and achieve a better outcome. To Arthas, the situation was "cull the city and save people from becoming undead" and "do nothing and Stratholme marches on Lordaeron". The situation was bigger than he was and the risk was worth it. I would even go so far as to say that this is a further condemnation of Uther and Jaina who abandoned Arthas, as Jaina had the same information Arthas did and they still chose to leave, making the culling a greater risk than it already was.

    Warcraft is hardly subtle in its storytelling and Arthas is no Illidan walking a twisted path between darkness and light. When a young impetuous character declares "I'm going to compete with that demon to see who can slaughter civilians the quickest," and his old, wise, virtuous teacher says "no, that is bad and wrong and against our principles as holy warriors," you should know it's the start of a dark path.
    Which is a fair point, but it removes all nuance. If the statement was "Arthas went down a dark path trying to do the right thing", no one would be contesting it. What is in contention is the idea that Arthas was a bad person to begin with (i.e.: saying he's the type of person to murder a city, which removes all context) when we know the situation is much more complicated. Arthas did bad things, but these were done because the alternatives were arguably worse, and in the case of Stratholme were demonstrably worse. The inaction of Uther and Jaina was not a righteous statement in protest of the culling, it was a cowardly action which would have condemned the entire city into undeath without making an attempt to stop it.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Which is a fair point, but it removes all nuance. If the statement was "Arthas went down a dark path trying to do the right thing", no one would be contesting it. What is in contention is the idea that Arthas was a bad person to begin with (i.e.: saying he's the type of person to murder a city, which removes all context) when we know the situation is much more complicated. Arthas did bad things, but these were done because the alternatives were arguably worse, and in the case of Stratholme were demonstrably worse. The inaction of Uther and Jaina was not a righteous statement in protest of the culling, it was a cowardly action which would have condemned the entire city into undeath without making an attempt to stop it.
    Everyone thinks they're trying to do the right thing, the fact is Arthas cared about beating Mal'Ganis and didn't care about the consequences of his actions or the effect they would have on his soul. The Prophet, Jaina and Uther all told him it would be a mistake to murder the citizens of Stratholme and while you might want to pretend that was them being "cowardly" the events of the story prove them right. By heeding the prophet Jaina managed to save the world and by slaughtering the city Arthas set himself down the path that ended with him being the Lich King.

    You seem to be imbuing the WC3 story with a lot more nuance than it possesses. Arthas is shown to be impulsive and brash, Uther is shown to be righteous and wise. If you want a clever character that walks a morally grey path look to Illidan.

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