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  1. #441
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Positively or negatively, though?

    As in, has it been canonically confirmed he still exists, or has it simply NOT been confirmed that he doesn't?

    Because otherwise that's what I mean by "unclear" - we know, officially, that at least part of his character was actively removed. We know basically nothing (to my knowledge, anyway - happy to be proven wrong) about the rest.
    "Med'an as well as the comic series are canon."
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Positively or negatively, though?
    Indifferently? He hasn't appeared anywhere outside of the comics. Which is neither a good or bad thing, since comic/manga/novel characters rarely get recognition in game.

    As in, has it been canonically confirmed he still exists, or has it simply NOT been confirmed that he doesn't?
    Once in canon, always canon, until said otherwise. That's how canon works.

    Like everything in the RPG books? It was ALL canon until the very moment that Blizzard outright states it's not canon. That's how it works, for better or for worse.

    And yes, it makes a huge mess of things when you consider there's a shit ton of inconsistencies that will remain as such until further explained. I mean, that's how canon works for any universe.

    As a Star Wars fan, as much as I hate the Lucas directors cut with Greedo shooting first, it's still the definitively canonical sequence of events until Disney decides to do something about it.

    Because otherwise that's what I mean by "unclear" - we know, officially, that at least part of his character was actively removed. We know basically nothing (to my knowledge, anyway - happy to be proven wrong) about the rest.
    Characters don't get removed from canon 'by default'. They have to actively be removed by an authorative source, and honestly that rarely happens. Blizzard doesn't make a habit of it since you never know when some developer decides to bring back some obscure character for shits and giggles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like everything in the RPG books? It was ALL canon until the very moment that Blizzard outright states it's not canon. That's how it works, for better or for worse.
    I find it fascinating just how consistent those RPG books are with the lore they create anyway. I would bet they still use it as a reference Bible (something that is obviously sorely lacking in their narrative dept.)

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Iheartnathanos View Post
    I find it fascinating just how consistent those RPG books are with the lore they create anyway. I would bet they still use it as a reference Bible (something that is obviously sorely lacking in their narrative dept.)
    A lot of it did source their internal works, well before there was any public knowledge of it in game.

    The entire Titan pantheon, all of the Ancients of Hyjal, depictions of Azshara as an octopus-like Naga Queen all were elaborated on in the RPG books well before we saw any of them in game. They took more of a 'history for the RTS' approach to world building than it was ever meant for WoW. That's sort of why they ended up having to make a new WoW Tabletop RPG to keep things slightly more consistent with the game.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-04-12 at 04:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #445
    The source for that doesn't exist anymore, so I'm not sure what was said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Once in canon, always canon, until said otherwise. That's how canon works.
    But it's not as easy with characters who at least in part have been REMOVED from canon.

    If it was just someone who was mentioned once and then never again - sure, totally onboard with that definition. Here, however, we have active retconning quite definitely being the case.

    But in any event, my point wasn't that he's definitely not canon anymore. Only that he's definitely not "indisputably canon", since there's so much we don't know, and what we do know is vague and from long ago.

  6. #446
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The source for that doesn't exist anymore, so I'm not sure what was said.
    The "archived copy" link is right there on the References section: here
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is relevant to your argument about Azeroth being "special" in some form or another.
    It is. Or haven't you noticed it in the last few years, when literally everyone is trying to claim her power?

    So what? Again, unless you can prove that no other planet in the cosmos was targeted and coveted by the Burning Legion as much as Azeroth's, then your point is moot.
    So what? Any other planet is moot. WoW centers around Azeroth.

    Patch 9.2.5 meaning it's still the Shadowlands expansion. And the rift that was closed was the one above Icecrown. We have other means to travel without the use of that rift. Especially since that rift only leads to the Maw.
    9.2.5 is as much Shadowlands as 9.3.5 is Legion. We're over the main threat. You didn't expect to see Legion remnants attacking us back then, did you?
    Oh, so suddenly getting to the Shadowlands is no big deal? Funny how you kept mentioning the rift being closed as to us never coming back there...

    How often do we see anyone from Outland? The arakkoa? The smart ogres? The Consortium? Or the ones from AU Draenor? The plant dudes? The powerful ogres? The uncorrupted Arakkoa?
    Literally came in BfA with the Mag'har. Orcs, Ogres, Ogron, Gronn, Gronnling, Goren, Saberon, Botani...

    Which happened at the very end of the expansion, not at the very beginning.
    So was Denathrius' disapearance. A patch before the last one. You didn't think he was taken away at the introductionary questline, did you?

    I'm giving you the reason as it is.
    You're coming up with anything that would counter mine. Even if it is incredibly redundant.

    Alright. If you can't argue like a normal human being without being insulting to other people, as I asked you multiple times now, this is my last response to you. Congratulations. You "won". Not with arguments, oh no, but by being a disgusting human being that can't argue without insults.
    I'm not insulting. I'm expecting more of you.

    "Narrow-minded", says the guy who can't seem to understand when he's wrong and is arrogant to the point of judging people.
    I'm showing you that looking at something in the short-term is an erroneous way of looking at things.

    That's irrelevant, though. Because while necromancy may have been created in Maldraxxus, that doesn't mean "necromancers come from Maldraxxus". That's a whole different ballpark. That's like saying I come from the Middle East because I'm mathematician, since the numbers we use today were invented by the middle-eastern civilizations of old.
    I didn't say Kel'thuzad came from the Shadowlands. I meant that Maldaxxus was the starting point from which the Scourge later followed.

    Yes. Yes, they do. Because they're duties that must be tended to all the time. They don't get vacations.
    There are more than enough souls to do that. A group can splinter off.

    "The Burning Legion is over". "You think there are no demons left?" And you accuse me of "not knowing the difference between terms."
    Their end goal is the same, at the end of the day. They're just less organized. Like the Scourge without a Lich King.

    "Can" and "will" are vastly different terms. The chances of us seeing Sire Denathrius again are slim to none.
    "Can" applies to everyone.
    "Will" applies to those who were hinted at, Like the god damn Denathrius cutscene.

    And now you're again moving the goalposts. Now it's "tHeY hAvE nO rElEvAnCy To ThE gAmE".
    Come on...Me'dan? Out of all characters? We're talking about the game's characters and storylines. Let's try and keep it that way.

    Oh, so it's basically cherry-picking now? Med'an, which you don't care about, "will never feature in WoW", but Sire Denathrius, somehow, "WILL show up again".
    Me'dan, the superhero, won't. I don't know what they've done to him since then. A regular Me'dan can appear.

    Which is based off the Warcraft franchise's lore, of which Med'an is indisputably part of the canon lore.
    Yes, but you're straying off topic to outside lore sources. We weren't talking about outside plotlines and characters. We were talking the likes of Neptulon and Denathrius, which are relevant to WoW.
    Last edited by username993720; 2022-04-12 at 08:20 AM.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I’m expecting Drakonids next xpac in some form if next xpac actually is dragon themed.

    But outside of that I would love to see Ethereals, Jinyu/Ankoan, and Naga.
    This about sums up my thoughts, with added emphasis on Drakonids, and etherals, and even more added emphasis on Naga. Arakkoa would be cool too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    For new classes, I'd like:
    • Dark Ranger
    More likely dark ranger would be an allied race than a class. Or rather it would be called Darkfallen, which is the blanket term for undead elves. Dark rangers are just Darkfallen who act mostly as hunters and roques.

    But yea... Darkfallen would be pretty rad... bonus points if their leader is the big Kael himself. Give me my vampire elves. Unless they give us Venthyr. Then I could settle for that.

    EDIT: It fills me with such joy seeing so many people suggesting Naga... gives me hope that one day perhaps my dream may come true and I may actually start playing WoW again... even if it is false hope since blizz is probably too lazy to work on the gear texturing for the tails and heads, along with mount anim...
    Last edited by Efcharisto; 2022-04-13 at 11:42 AM.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Efcharisto View Post
    More likely dark ranger would be an allied race than a class. Or rather it would be called Darkfallen, which is the blanket term for undead elves. Dark rangers are just Darkfallen who act mostly as hunters and roques.

    But yea... Darkfallen would be pretty rad... bonus points if their leader is the big Kael himself. Give me my vampire elves. Unless they give us Venthyr. Then I could settle for that.
    Dark Rangers were never a race.
    It would be like saying Death Knights are a race.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Dark Rangers were never a race.
    It would be like saying Death Knights are a race.
    Which is why it would be nice to introduce them, though the style would vary from Dark Rangers to vampiric San'layn.

    The Dark Ranger Class itself would be a special set of effects and maybe tameable creatures to be achievable to those finishing a special questline like that for the green fel fire for Warlocks ... or a micro class ... or an additional spec for Hunters ...

    I don't know how/if Blizz will decide, but not introducing Undead Elves would be a great waste.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwing View Post
    Which is why it would be nice to introduce them, though the style would vary from Dark Rangers to vampiric San'layn.

    The Dark Ranger Class itself would be a special set of effects and maybe tameable creatures to be achievable to those finishing a special questline like that for the green fel fire for Warlocks ... or a micro class ... or an additional spec for Hunters ...

    I don't know how/if Blizz will decide, but not introducing Undead Elves would be a great waste.
    So, you want Vampires? Wait for Venthyr.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, you want Vampires? Wait for Venthyr.
    I would be surprised if we didn't get them along with the rest of the main covenant races. I would welcome them, but this doesn't make Darkfallen irrelevant.

    The Darkfallen are deeper integrated in existing lore. They are closer to the classic trope, as some of them(San'layn) need/desire blood, while Venthyr need anima/sin.

    Getting both would mean some overlap, especially in style, but why not? We have Orcs and Mag'har.

  13. #453
    I am pressed to think of how a Dark Ranger class would work. What would differentiate them from hunters and rogues? And they'd have to get the demon hunter treatment where it is only available to Blood and Night elves, unless Darkfallen would be added as an allied race then clearly they'd be the only ones with access to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, you want Vampires? Wait for Venthyr.
    People want their pale, red eyed undead elves is the thing. It's a popular aesthetic. Darkfallen aren't all vampiric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwing View Post
    Getting both would mean some overlap, especially in style, but why not? We have Orcs and Mag'har.
    Well Orcs and Mag'har having overlap is different from two entirely separate races having overlap.

    I am not sure people would be satisfied with getting Darkfallen unless they had a racial with vampiric mechanics, which would probably be a problem if Venthyr were also going to be added because I think most people want races accessible by the same faction to have different racials from one another.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwing View Post
    I would be surprised if we didn't get them along with the rest of the main covenant races. I would welcome them, but this doesn't make Darkfallen irrelevant.

    The Darkfallen are deeper integrated in existing lore. They are closer to the classic trope, as some of them(San'layn) need/desire blood, while Venthyr need anima/sin.

    Getting both would mean some overlap, especially in style, but why not? We have Orcs and Mag'har.
    Currently, the San'layn model is very outdated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efcharisto View Post
    I am pressed to think of how a Dark Ranger class would work. What would differentiate them from hunters and rogues? And they'd have to get the demon hunter treatment where it is only available to Blood and Night elves, unless Darkfallen would be added as an allied race then clearly they'd be the only ones with access to it.
    There you go:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...pecializations
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Future-Classes

    People want their pale, red eyed undead elves is the thing. It's a popular aesthetic. Darkfallen aren't all vampiric.
    Which they will get with a Dark Ranger. Making it into a race is a waste.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    There you go:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...pecializations
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Future-Classes



    Which they will get with a Dark Ranger. Making it into a race is a waste.

    I am still not sure I am seeing enough differentiation from a hunter or rogue... or even demon hunter actually. You'd be better off with something like the green fire questline that just changes the aesthetics of certain abilities to give them a more magic theme.


    And see... people don't necessarily want to be locked to one class to have that aesthetic. I personally do not want to have to use a bow or a gun to have my red eyed undead elves. If I wanna play a Darkfallen warlock then I don't think it's much of a waste to make darkfallen a race.
    Last edited by Efcharisto; 2022-04-15 at 01:16 AM. Reason: quote mistake

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Efcharisto View Post
    I am still not sure I am seeing enough differentiation from a hunter or rogue... or even demon hunter actually. You'd be better off with something like the green fire questline that just changes the aesthetics of certain abilities to give them a more magic theme.


    And see... people don't necessarily want to be locked to one class to have that aesthetic. I personally do not want to have to use a bow or a gun to have my red eyed undead elves. If I wanna play a Darkfallen warlock then I don't think it's much of a waste to make darkfallen a race.
    So, only a Hunter is allowed to use ranged weapons?
    Did you expect a Death Knight race or a Demon Hunter race because you simply did not want to be locked to a certain class?

  17. #457
    They're not ingrained at all.
    They're literally just dead elves, and them just being dead elves is also newer lore that invalidates them as a separate race even more.

    It's a skin.
    A red eyed elf with a death knight skin would be the biggest waste of a race slot I've ever seen in a modern MMORPG, especially when they already just introduced void elves, that do actually have vampire inspired hair cuts already. Not to mention, the void has been described as "vampiric" in multiple aspects. Just not blood - which is far more interesting.

    Some of us who enjoy vampires on other races that aren't elves have been stuck with Death Knights for years. Why do Blood Elves demand to be given special treatment on this? The undead skin and red eyes should obviously be unlocked either through class skins, or just as a night warrior style thing, but to argue that dead elves are some sort of hugely important race is ridiculous.

    And San'layn don't "desire" blood like the way the playerbase thinks they do. That's a fanon construct. They're just blood mages but dead.
    The Venthyr are the actual vampires aesthetically, and feeding on anima - the literal life force of the universe - seems pretty hardcore vampire to me.

    It is absolutely a waste to make this a race, especially when non-elves have been waiting for their wanted races. That takes away from them.
    Just give red eyes to void and blood elves, and let people run around roleplaying what they want.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, only a Hunter is allowed to use ranged weapons?
    Did you expect a Death Knight race or a Demon Hunter race because you simply did not want to be locked to a certain class?
    No, but I am not sure what you are suggesting for the Dark ranger has enough that is unique about it to warrant it's own class. There is probably a way to create a class that specializes in ranged weapons while being sufficiently different from MM Hunters that dismiss their pets. But a ranger, or dark ranger class just does not seem to be it to me.

    No. What do you even mean by "death knight race" lol. There was nothing that anyone could ask for before DK's came out that could be considered for a race. I actually really did want a felblood elf race which is sorta like a demon hunter race, yea. Plus, DK and DH are both pre-allied races. In a sense, Darkfallen fills the niche of a DK race. I would still love Felbloods...



    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    They're not ingrained at all.
    They're literally just dead elves, and them just being dead elves is also newer lore that invalidates them as a separate race even more.

    It's a skin.
    A red eyed elf with a death knight skin would be the biggest waste of a race slot I've ever seen in a modern MMORPG, especially when they already just introduced void elves, that do actually have vampire inspired hair cuts already. Not to mention, the void has been described as "vampiric" in multiple aspects. Just not blood - which is far more interesting.
    They are more ingrained than over half of the Allied races, most of which are also just reskins...

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    Why do Blood Elves demand to be given special treatment on this?
    ... Because aside from Dreadlords, Blood elves have always been the OG vampiric race of Warcraft in the lore. Unlike you, this isn't just some bias either for or against elves. This is foundational. There are multiple canon sources that have Blood elves being described as vampiric originating from both before and after their milquetoastification. That's ignoring the fact that they had such blatant vampy vibes in the most iconic examples of their art style and color scheme, the latter just so happens to be almost identical to the Venthyr's color scheme... damn it they even were described in some sources as preferring their rooms to be more dimly lit than High Elves used to! What a coincidence, huh? Was it as on-the-nose as it is with Venthyr? No. Of course not. That allowed for some diversity, and some originality/uniqueness. Ofc it became far more on the nose when races/factions deriving from the blood elves arose. Felblood Elves? Literally drink blood, albeit demon blood, and have claws and prominent vampire fangs. San'layn? Their thirst for blood is canon, not fanon. I direct your attention to the Shatter the Orbs! quest where it is explicitly stated the blood is being used to feed the blood prince. Then I direct your attention to the adventure guide of Blood Princess Thal'ena where is it stated she is the daughter of the vampyr Blood-Queen Lana'thel‎, who herself has an ability called vampiric bite

    There's just no getting around it aside from wanting Blizzard to further bastardize their lore so that the blood elves no longer have any of these vampiric themes and implications all because you don't like elven vampires!

    I would be indifferent to whether the first vampiric playable race is elf or not, if not for the fact that blood elves, whether fel corrupted, or undead, are the most appropriate choice!! Yes. We have void elves but screw Void Elves, to be perfectly frank.

    Venthyr are cool. If they are added I will probably play them. But truthfully? I would prefer them not made playable. Shadowlands' story is a damned travesty on a monumental scale. So as cool as Venthyr are, I would rather that they never see the light of day or night on Azeroth than have anything to do with something spawned from that expansion.
    Last edited by Efcharisto; 2022-04-15 at 09:38 PM.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Efcharisto View Post
    No, but I am not sure what you are suggesting for the Dark ranger has enough that is unique about it to warrant it's own class. There is probably a way to create a class that specializes in ranged weapons while being sufficiently different from MM Hunters that dismiss their pets. But a ranger, or dark ranger class just does not seem to be it to me.
    First of all, it wouldn't constitute an entire class but a spec. Other aspects could possibly be of the Warden and Priestess of the Moon.
    Second of all, the Dark Ranger isn't just an MM Hunter lookalike. It also has many Subtlety Rogue features, which you cannot apply to the Hunter.

    No. What do you even mean by "death knight race" lol. There was nothing that anyone could ask for before DK's came out that could be considered for a race. I actually really did want a felblood elf race which is sorta like a demon hunter race, yea. Plus, DK and DH are both pre-allied races. In a sense, Darkfallen fills the niche of a DK race. I would still love Felbloods...
    What i mean? Humans with undead skins and blue eyes. Boom! A new race. See? I can come up with bullshit too (like saying Dark Rangers are a race). People already had the Dreadnaught gear set as Warriors in Vanilla, so the only thing missing was a Death Knight race (being sarcastic).
    Felblood elves could not, and can not, replace the Demon Hunter as a class. Do you even realize the differences between a class and a race? What, were you expecting racial traits to fulfill the entire fantasy of a class?
    San'layn even had blue eyes recently:


    Does that mean they are a Death Knight race?

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    First of all, it wouldn't constitute an entire class but a spec. Other aspects could possibly be of the Warden and Priestess of the Moon.
    Second of all, the Dark Ranger isn't just an MM Hunter lookalike. It also has many Subtlety Rogue features, which you cannot apply to the Hunter.
    Yea I saw that in your links. I find that even more unfeasible.


    Mashing two classes together a new class, or even spec, does not make.


    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    What i mean? Humans with undead skins and blue eyes. Boom! A new race. See? I can come up with bullshit too (like saying Dark Rangers are a race). People already had the Dreadnaught gear set as Warriors in Vanilla, so the only thing missing was a Death Knight race (being sarcastic).
    Felblood elves could not, and can not, replace the Demon Hunter as a class. Do you even realize the differences between a class and a race? What, were you expecting racial traits to fulfill the entire fantasy of a class?
    San'layn even had blue eyes recently:
    -snip-
    Does that mean they are a Death Knight race?
    Except... humans with undead skins and blue eyes weren't a thing until after DK's were released... no one could ask for it. The same can not be said for Darkfallen and dark ranger. And... again... DK and DH is pre allied races which are often just reskins not much more than what the dark ranger skins are.

    I never said felblood elves could replace demon hunters as a class. However, if you were to make an allied race simply using the cosmetic options from demon hunters, then you don't really have much different from a felblood elf. And as I stated, this is about what would be asked for before the class is officially announced based of assets we've already seen. Not stuff we would look at after the fact and say "Well now I wish this was an allied race and not a class"

    Lol. "Recently". Do you have any idea how old those skins are? I mean yes technically, back then they were basically if you had a race that looked like death knights without being death knights. But that is, once again, not the same as our current situation. We have the cosmetics already before our eyes. Some allied races being no more of a reskin as a Darkfallen race would be. And as such I am arguing that I would prefer those cosmetics be used for an allied race. Not sure what the hell you are even talking about racial traits fulfilling the entire fantasy of a class... lol you're the one that is getting confused, not me if you think I am saying felblood elves could be a class.

    There is in the end nothing preventing us from getting both a dark ranger class, and a darkfallen allied race. Well, besides you saying Dark ranger not actually being the class, but rather a spec where somehow the other specs are priestess of the moon and warden? As if the three are even close to being connected enough to be one class...?

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