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  1. #41
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Who determines what is a bad discussion and what isn't? How does one know what a bad discussion is?
    The mod staff.

    Personal judgement.

    The same as it is with literally every other infraction issued.

    This is what I meant by 'deliberate bad faith', FYI. You're wringing your hands over a status quo that isn't in any way problematic.


  2. #42

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    We've seen some generally shitty and morally bankrupt companies do the right thing, already. Shouldn't be a big ask for this place to follow suit.
    That in of itself should be a warning flag, when a supposed terrible and morally corrupt entity suddenly does something that appears virtuous. It's either a broken clock is correct twice a day, or their underlying motivations and reasons aren't so virtuous. Chances are it's the latter if one even has to question whether this is the case or not.

    Unfortunately, we'd have to be extremely specific as to what's considered propaganda, as it's too often used as "If it's not my narrative, it's propaganda." Same thing happened with Covid, where information that was considered propaganda and fake news 1-2 years ago by the mainstream (despite evidence to the contrary) is actually the accepted narrative by the mainstream now... but man, if you were one of those 'conspiracy theorists' you were a pariah and probably still considered so by some despite being correct.

    Considering how staunchly opinionated people tend to be on this forum, I doubt even legitimate propaganda would be changing anyone's mind at this point. Regardless, I think people should have a healthy skepticism of any news you hear about the situation. If you're getting your political/world news and information from this forum, I'd say the cause is lost already.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The mod staff.

    Personal judgement.

    The same as it is with literally every other infraction issued.

    This is what I meant by 'deliberate bad faith', FYI. You're wringing your hands over a status quo that isn't in any way problematic.
    What does the mods handling it have to do with the rule being unclear though? How is that okay if it's an "after-the-fact", done-deal kind of potential punishment that you can't see coming? Once again, glaringly obvious things such as International Criminal Justice and similar things aside.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is a ridiculous statement to make, and demonstrates bad faith.


    I think that the opposite is the case and that it demonstrates bad faith from you. I raised an issue and you tried to trivialize it by saying that it's "only a 5-point infraction, get some perspective". When I raised the question of the trivial nature you yourself superimposed on the issue I raised, you say it's bad faith from me.

    This is exactly why rules like this would be a problem, unless listed with specifics. You use two different standards for the same issue depending on whether you think it's bad faith or not, while not seeing the same coming from yourself.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-03-11 at 04:33 AM.

  4. #44
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Unfortunately, we'd have to be extremely specific as to what's considered propaganda
    There's no need for any greater "specificity" than with the current rules on trolling, flaming, abusive conduct, hate speech, or any of a dozen other infractable offenses.

    This same non-argument crops up constantly, and it mostly involves bad-faith actors trying to ensure there are loopholes they can continue to abuse to escape penalty, moving forward.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What does the mods handling it have to do with the rule being unclear though? How is that okay if it's an "after-the-fact", done-deal kind of potential punishment that you can't see coming?
    Because you could see it coming. The rule is not "unclear"; no propaganda is to be posted. If you can't tell the difference between propaganda and reasonable discussion, that's a "you" problem, not a lack of clarity in the rules.

    I think that the opposite is the case and that it demonstrates bad faith from you. I raised an issue and you tried to trivialize it. When I raised the question of the trivial nature you yourself superimposed on the issue I raised, you say it's bad faith from me. This is exactly why rules like this would be a problem, unless listed with specifics.
    I trivialized it because it's an "issue" that's been resolved concretely for years now, and is not in any way a new factor that would affect moderation in any way. Personal judgement has always played a part. I'm speaking of personal experience here, too, not just guessing.


  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post


    Because you could see it coming. The rule is not "unclear"; no propaganda is to be posted. If you can't tell the difference between propaganda and reasonable discussion, that's a "you" problem, not a lack of clarity in the rules.
    I've never been infracted for propaganda, but I potentially could be at any turn and within a reasonable discussion. This is the problem.

    Example? If I say that, for example, Russian sportsmen shouldn't be punished over the military invasion by the RF because they aren't complicit, I could be infracted. I most likely won't, but I could because I'm sure there's some Russian politicians who expressed the same opinion.

  6. #46
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I've never been infracted for propaganda, but I potentially could be at any turn and within a reasonable discussion. This is the problem.
    Same applies to the rules on trolling, on flaming, on hate speech, and so on.

    This is not a unique issue, and it's an issue that's already well-recognized and well-handled. You pretending otherwise is intentional dishonesty.


  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I've never been infracted for propaganda, but I potentially could be at any turn and within a reasonable discussion. This is the problem.

    Example? If I say that, for example, Russian sportsmen shouldn't be punished over the military invasion by the RF because they aren't complicit, I could be infracted. I most likely won't, but I could because I'm sure there's some Russian politicians who expressed the same opinion.
    saying russian sportsmen shouldnt be punished isnt propaganda,its just an opinion,and it doesnt even fall in a black or white kind of opinion either like other stuff

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    Does the owner or leadership at have a policy to deal with state sponsored accounts spamming a forum with propaganda?

    Other social media sites have slowly begun to deal with this issue by banning propaganda accounts. Do you?

    From the end-user perspective they really suck.
    • Them constantly spamming the same lies and gaslight is like experiencing emotional abuse.
    • Why visit MMO-C to get abused?
    • Watching them bait other well-meaning users into bans also sucks.
    • They have baited some of the higher-quality-posters into bans. Losing the better writers like that sucks.


    Its been stupidly obvious problem since the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. The current Ukraine Crisis is exposing the problem all over again.

    Just a suggestion, but you might want to clarify and announce whatever policies you have to address this.

    Be well.
    Just ban all political posts period, problem solved.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Same applies to the rules on trolling, on flaming, on hate speech, and so on.

    This is not a unique issue, and it's an issue that's already well-recognized and well-handled. You pretending otherwise is intentional dishonesty.
    If it was dishonesty, I wouldn't bother replying this often.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    It is, when there's the possibility for everything to be declared propaganda, even legitimate concerns.

    If, for example, someone says they stronger border control, one of the resident MMOC intellectuals will jump out and say it is Russian propaganda for Trump or something like that. This is a very real occurence. It silently intimidates people into not discussing certain subjects.

    Now you have OP pretending like people need to be protected from propaganda and trying to present it like this website's owners condone aggression on Ukraine because a few trolls appear here and there. It is a weasly way of having someone do what you want them to do by putting them into an uncomfortable position. This is exactly why it shouldn't be done.
    Yeah, no. The clear and present danger clause would override this.

  11. #51
    Hoof Hearted!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    Just ban all political posts period, problem solved.
    I fully agree with banning all political posters. Leave politics out of a game forum.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  12. #52
    Way to go comrades, send everyone not agreeing with you to the gulag

    Endus, the liberal-fascist commie ex-mod commenting here makes the topic extra funny

  13. #53
    I am Murloc! SinR's Avatar
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    Again, what kind of action was, if any, taken during the whole Jan 6th insurrection and the events leading up to it?
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
    #TeamFuckEverything

  14. #54
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    I like this idea. Western propaganda must be eradicated from this website.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Which side propaganda should be allowed?
    Team America, FUCK YEAH!

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    I like this idea. Western propaganda must be eradicated from this website.
    But Russian propaganda isn't western.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That in of itself should be a warning flag, when a supposed terrible and morally corrupt entity suddenly does something that appears virtuous. It's either a broken clock is correct twice a day, or their underlying motivations and reasons aren't so virtuous. Chances are it's the latter if one even has to question whether this is the case or not.

    Unfortunately, we'd have to be extremely specific as to what's considered propaganda, as it's too often used as "If it's not my narrative, it's propaganda." Same thing happened with Covid, where information that was considered propaganda and fake news 1-2 years ago by the mainstream (despite evidence to the contrary) is actually the accepted narrative by the mainstream now... but man, if you were one of those 'conspiracy theorists' you were a pariah and probably still considered so by some despite being correct.

    Considering how staunchly opinionated people tend to be on this forum, I doubt even legitimate propaganda would be changing anyone's mind at this point. Regardless, I think people should have a healthy skepticism of any news you hear about the situation. If you're getting your political/world news and information from this forum, I'd say the cause is lost already.
    Hits the nail on the head...
    Plenty of todays facts is tomorrows misinformation and vice versa. It has been like that all throughout history and will continue to be so whenever new things occur.
    Whenever someone believes they sit on 100% factual information, that's when misinformation spreads. Not saying it isn't possible that said information is correct, but it's usually better to be at least a little bit skeptical. Especially today when news get spread even faster with social media and memes.

    Think we have multiple internet providers here blocking traffic to certain sites, which I think sets a bad precedent. Glad mine haven't done so. Not because I want to read those sites, but because having some other "authority" making that choice for me is not a comforting thought.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-03-11 at 06:51 AM.

  18. #58
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    It is, when there's the possibility for everything to be declared propaganda, even legitimate concerns.
    There's some truth to this. Faith, honest belief in stuff that may be mistaken (or lies), bad opinions, trolling, and propaganda are not always easy to sort out. It's not a rare thing for people to report anything they disagree with.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  19. #59
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    I think a good idea would be, when you quote a poster to also add this:
    Do you have a source from 2 sides?
    This is correct information.
    I cant verify your info to be real.
    This is propaganda.
    This is western propaganda.
    Propaganda bot.

    It should help people to see what is true or not (mods could also edit posts --- but they are not factcheckers for that).
    I can only see it working like this, as any other solution is to either simply ban politics (disaster threads), but then people will complain is cenzorship
    Don't sweat the details!!!

  20. #60
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    If you believe there is a propaganda post, then I suggest you report it to the moderators with what you believe is the propaganda, and then let them handle it. I'll feel sorry for it, but if it is needed, then that'll be very retroactive as we've already been through one propaganda war that still isn't over, and we know some people call out propaganda when things aren't what they want it to be. It'll be a lot of extra work for the moderator team, and they have to be ready for a lot of appeals too.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

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