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  1. #1

    Question Dumb move to borrow torghast- mechanic to M+?

    If this idea has been presented on this forum before, then i apologize. But let me still tell.

    Torghast right now has that mechanic of allowing certain number of deaths before a run is failed.

    Would it work for M+ to work the same way instead of timer? No rush, no skipping packs, just survival.
    Clearing the dungeon with deaths under set amount grants next level stone. Extra deaths won't change loot amount.
    But, there must not be special awards for No-Death- runs to avoid perverted strategies.

    This method would be easy to implement to older dungeons too since the size wouldn't be an issue. But will an allotted time to clear a dungeon still be
    the most important thing in the future?

    Am i, or we just fighting windmills now?

  2. #2
    Unfortunately they went in the opposite direction and made Torghast more like Mythics by being essentially timed but with no death counter. Personally I prefer any content to be more about being thorough and efficient than about being fast but apparently Blizzard feels otherwise.

  3. #3
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Nah! I want these powers from Torghast to m+!
    Behold my new creation!


  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    No death run sounds good but in action game like WoW actually is. Rush straight to the finish works better imo. No death runs could be additional achi with some reward just as side activity :P

  5. #5
    I am not particularily a fan of the timer either. But the death counter is even worse imho.

    And what the hell are "perverted strategies"? People playing in a way you don't like? Like skipping?

    Mythic+ is succesfull. Even if some people rage against it. It is one of the few things in wow that did not change considerably since its implementation. So yes. I think you are fighting windmills.
    I would also guess that many people who don't like the timer don't like hard content no matter what. If the dungeon would be harder but no timer.... it would not make a difference in the end for them
    Last edited by VinceVega; 2022-03-16 at 07:55 AM.

  6. #6
    Tribute to Insanity was this and it was fantastic.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Rigman View Post
    Tribute to Insanity was this and it was fantastic.
    Shit no it wasn't and let's go how much people ADORED the attempt system from ICC

  8. #8
    I honestly don't get why some people are so against timers in a competitive environment. Do you legit wanna do a 2 hour halls of atonement run? Wild.

    If all you are doing is weekly clear content then the timers aren't even relevant anyway, and if you're doing push keys the timer is a good thing otherwise there wouldn't be a competitive environment.

    I feel like the only people getting mad at timers must be the ultra casuals who just wanna do easy ass dungeons and get free top end gear.

    Mythic+ is legit the best end game system the MMO genre has ever envisioned, to the point where I wont even play an MMO if this system doesn't exist in it, it's basically the only reason me and my team still play WoW.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  9. #9
    Brewmaster Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    If all you are doing is weekly clear content then the timers aren't even relevant anyway, and if you're doing push keys the timer is a good thing otherwise there wouldn't be a competitive environment.
    I think there is a big difference between a timer for speed run times, and a timer that punishes you for going too slow. I'm more than willing to support a speed run timer complete with leaderboards, but would much rather just have completing the dungeon be the main objective rather than adding on a failure timer. I really don't think this is that big a deal, and definitely isn't representative of your strawman of "hurr I just want free gear".

    I guess we can just all be happy that this isn't the game design of 20 years ago when failing the timer would probably just boot you from the dungeon and give you nothing. M+ to me is one of the worst end game systems implemented, but maybe I'm just crazy because I don't want to do the same 8 dungeons on repeat for 2 years pushing for slightly higher numbers. I've never been the kind of person who wants to watch the same movie 20 times, or play the same game 20 times. Even some of my favorite games that I've sunk hundreds or thousands of hours into, I do so because of achievement hunting, a wealth of content, mods, or just attempting a completely different playstyle offered by the game. If Skyrim for instance didn't have mods that drastically changed the game, but only an endless difficulty slider, I would not have anywhere near the 1500 hours of play that I do. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but to use your terminology, I think it's "wild" that I see people saying they enjoy M+ when doing their 400th Plaguefall run of the expansion.

  10. #10
    Soooooo
    3 tank 2 healers then?
    Get really wild and cut a tank for a true dps?
    I mean only a mage or rogue obviously--wouldnt want to risk having someone without 87 ways to survive.
    SorryNotSorry

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    maybe I'm just crazy because I don't want to do the same 8 dungeons on repeat for 2 years pushing for slightly higher numbers. I've never been the kind of person who wants to watch the same movie 20 times, or play the same game 20 times
    ok, then why do you play wow?
    bcs it was about repeating the same content many, MANY times, since vanila...
    or did you just clear everything once and then never touch it? bcs if thats the case mmorpg really doesnt seem like genre for you...

    you might argue with raids it was still the same difficulty (which i think is even worse) not "pushing for slightly higher numbers" but... you can do that with m+ too...
    you can stop at, lets say m+10 (to have all affixes) and never go anything higher if you want...
    and if you are fully geared from m+10 you can stop playing, like you would with the raidsif you dont want to run it again...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2022-03-31 at 09:23 AM.

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ok, then why do you play wow?
    bcs it was about repeating the same content many, MANY times, since vanila...
    or did you just clear everything once and then never touch it? bcs if thats the case mmorpg really doesnt seem like genre for you...

    you might argue with raids it was still the same difficulty (which i think is even worse) not "pushing for slightly higher numbers" but... you can do that with m+ too...
    you can stop at, lets say m+10 (to have all affixes) and never go anything higher if you want...
    and if you are fully geared from m+10 you can stop playing, like you would with the raidsif you dont want to run it again...
    You've basically hit it on the head and don't realize it. What changes from being a +10 to being a +15, or a +20, or a +25? Almost nothing. What changes from normal to heroic to mythic raids? Quite a lot. So as you would expect from what I said about content I enjoy, that I don't want to repeat the same dungeon layout with the same monsters in the same places and sets, with the same set of affixes we've had for multiple expansions.

    Big fucking shock, even back in my glory days of hardcore raiding 4-5 days a week doing the same raid over and over, I didn't enjoy it after a certain point but I kept going because of farming gear for other raid members or selling runs for gold to fund the gbank. To answer your question, I play WoW for the community I play with, and I do what I need to do on my end to keep it interesting for myself. This could be playing or creating alts, switching it up with old content, pvp, achievement hunting, pet battles, or even just afk crafting/herbing/mining while listening to podcasts. This shouldn't be a big shock to anyone, because I feel this mirrors how a lot of people play the game in my observation.

    I can't speak for people outside my guild, but I can say that out of my group of 19 raiders, only 2 of them actually enjoy M+. I think it's just as "wild" that they enjoy it, but maybe their reasons make sense to them the same way it somehow makes sense to you. Most people I know who participate in that content are doing it purely because it's way easier to do a +15 than to mythic raid, and the gear is basically equivalent. If the carrot for M+ was not as big, I would be willing to bet that it would lose at least half of the people looking to do it. I say this based off my experience of being a hardcore raider in BC and Wrath where the only reason a raider would do a dungeon is levelling/gearing up at the start of a patch, getting achievements, or doing the weekly dungeon quest. I'm probably biased, and that's ok.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I honestly don't get why some people are so against timers in a competitive environment. Do you legit wanna do a 2 hour halls of atonement run? Wild.

    If all you are doing is weekly clear content then the timers aren't even relevant anyway, and if you're doing push keys the timer is a good thing otherwise there wouldn't be a competitive environment.

    I feel like the only people getting mad at timers must be the ultra casuals who just wanna do easy ass dungeons and get free top end gear.

    Mythic+ is legit the best end game system the MMO genre has ever envisioned, to the point where I wont even play an MMO if this system doesn't exist in it, it's basically the only reason me and my team still play WoW.
    There are multiple issues/reasons why people are against timers. I personally do not mind the timer but I do understand the point of others.
    First and foremost, the timer makes you run the highest dmg output comps for the highest keys. I have a friend who likes to play outlaw, yet for dmg numbers to push higher keys into the time limit, he needs to be sub which he does not like. Just cause outlaw numbers just do not give out the same amount as sub numbers.
    Secondly it makes people more afraid of "new" tactics and other "lets try this" ideas. In a pug world, 1 wipe and its done, gg key gone, go next. Even in your own grp, theres a sour taste in your mouth if you just lose the key for a little misplay, thus the reason why people do not want to tank mythic plus.
    Thirdly, it makes the whole dungeon, not about doing the mehanics and surviving right but more about how you can push the most dmg into this or that pull/boss. While I do agree that doing huge pulls right and fast is satisfying, it does roadblock classes and specs who do not deal enough damage. Again, just look at the healer comparison in mythic plus, this season, last season and so on. We should all remember what a "fun" gameplay ashen hallow holy paladins were to other healers.

    While it is "best" endgame system for most part, there can always be improvements. I enjoy mythic plus and I have been doing it on and off for most seasons but it has come a long way from the way it was at start til here. Adding a leaderboard kind of thing based on timer, a leaderboard for completion/highest key done, a way to "practise" your key or a way to unrandomize your key would be nice. By practise I mean that you could either reset the keystone (like CM) or change other keys into certain dungeon. Cause atm if you do not have much time to play, you cant try out different pulls without losing the key and the affixes also switch each week so you gotta wait over a month and half to try again that pull with that new tactic. Fun gameplay^^

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    There are multiple issues/reasons why people are against timers. I personally do not mind the timer but I do understand the point of others.
    First and foremost, the timer makes you run the highest dmg output comps for the highest keys. I have a friend who likes to play outlaw, yet for dmg numbers to push higher keys into the time limit, he needs to be sub which he does not like. Just cause outlaw numbers just do not give out the same amount as sub numbers.
    Secondly it makes people more afraid of "new" tactics and other "lets try this" ideas. In a pug world, 1 wipe and its done, gg key gone, go next. Even in your own grp, theres a sour taste in your mouth if you just lose the key for a little misplay, thus the reason why people do not want to tank mythic plus.
    Thirdly, it makes the whole dungeon, not about doing the mehanics and surviving right but more about how you can push the most dmg into this or that pull/boss. While I do agree that doing huge pulls right and fast is satisfying, it does roadblock classes and specs who do not deal enough damage. Again, just look at the healer comparison in mythic plus, this season, last season and so on. We should all remember what a "fun" gameplay ashen hallow holy paladins were to other healers.

    While it is "best" endgame system for most part, there can always be improvements. I enjoy mythic plus and I have been doing it on and off for most seasons but it has come a long way from the way it was at start til here. Adding a leaderboard kind of thing based on timer, a leaderboard for completion/highest key done, a way to "practise" your key or a way to unrandomize your key would be nice. By practise I mean that you could either reset the keystone (like CM) or change other keys into certain dungeon. Cause atm if you do not have much time to play, you cant try out different pulls without losing the key and the affixes also switch each week so you gotta wait over a month and half to try again that pull with that new tactic. Fun gameplay^^
    Honestly the whole "forced to run x comp" thing is just for the top 100ish players, the actual highest keys being run in the world, and that is totally fine. You can run up to like +25 (which is VERY high for 99.9999% of players) with any comp you want as long as you bring basic things like heroism, and that's not a big ask.

    Most of the comp supremacy meta bullshit comes from people looking at what streamers are running or watching MDI and thinking that applies to anything they are doing. My team in Season 2 managed to reach +24 without a Rogue or a Mage, and we hit our block because we aren't raiders and didn't have the best gear or dom shards, not because of our comp. Right now in Season 3 we are running +21's at around 267 ilvl and no tier sets with our S2 comp that isn't exactly good anymore.

    TL;DR - The whole "timer forces you to bring the best possible damage comp" idea is a complete myth perpetuated by the streamer watching pug culture.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  15. #15
    While I'm not fan of the timer, waiting for cooldowns for each pack will be even worse.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I honestly don't get why some people are so against timers in a competitive environment. Do you legit wanna do a 2 hour halls of atonement run? Wild.
    Things can be challenging and fun without being fast. Players and developers seem to have forgotten that. For some people like me having to race a clock and do things fast and sloppy rather than slow and thorough takes all the fun out of it and adds a pointless stress factor.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Things can be challenging and fun without being fast. Players and developers seem to have forgotten that. For some people like me having to race a clock and do things fast and sloppy rather than slow and thorough takes all the fun out of it and adds a pointless stress factor.
    I mean that's the viewpoint of someone who has clearly never engaged in M+ to a significant degree. There is nothing fast and sloppy about an M+ run, it's about skill and practice. Another common myth perpetuated by M+ hater culture is that you have to mongo pull your way through a dungeon just to beat the timer, not true at all. Most runs me an my team do are just pulling regular sized packs, sometimes 1 pack sometimes 2 packs, nothing special, and just executing mechanics and playing well throughout the run. Extremely chill, most of the time you are running M+ you don't even notice a timer exists, because it doesn't dictate anything. When you reach the extreme high end or play in the MDI that changes of course, but that only applies to like 100 players in the world.

    TL;DR - Yet another common myth, that M+ is fast and sloppy or that you are stressed into mongo pulling through a dungeon, is completely untrue. M+ is actually far more chill than challenge mode was back in the day.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  18. #18
    Scarab Lord
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    Well that's one way to make deaths more punishing, playing with the powers, while fun, would obviously be impossible to balance in upper keys but maybe there could be a fun gamemode for just that to experiment and for lulz?

    i think making the runs score-based like torghast would be a huge improvement and offer more variety than the usual "gitgut and beat timer 4head!" every single run.
    Instead of the clock dictating everything you'd get multiple ways to 5-star or achieve a flawless run, like go super fast nvm if you have a few deaths or you could clear everything do an achievement on a boss or whatever all with 0 deaths and what have you. That way current meta-classes, routes and dodgy pathing wouldn't be so dominant in the scene + pugs would have more choices if they spot they blew the timer during a run by playing a bit too safe and conservatively: so opt to just go for some achievements or go out of their way to kill some extra stuff. It still amounts to the same equation of time spent + effort = reward.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Honestly the whole "forced to run x comp" thing is just for the top 100ish players, the actual highest keys being run in the world, and that is totally fine. You can run up to like +25 (which is VERY high for 99.9999% of players) with any comp you want as long as you bring basic things like heroism, and that's not a big ask.

    Most of the comp supremacy meta bullshit comes from people looking at what streamers are running or watching MDI and thinking that applies to anything they are doing. My team in Season 2 managed to reach +24 without a Rogue or a Mage, and we hit our block because we aren't raiders and didn't have the best gear or dom shards, not because of our comp. Right now in Season 3 we are running +21's at around 267 ilvl and no tier sets with our S2 comp that isn't exactly good anymore.

    TL;DR - The whole "timer forces you to bring the best possible damage comp" idea is a complete myth perpetuated by the streamer watching pug culture.
    Try to time 25 currently with still capped dps. Does not work mate. I do ran at 22-23 last season before i had to quit for personal reasons without shards and stuff and you cant see how much easier and fast it is to have the most optimal group? Also this is not about meta since i do not watch streamers but you can logically see and in your case feel, how much better and faster a key would go if a certain spec or class did 15k on a pull like others not 9k. Pure numbers mate. Timer forces you to take better dmg classes. Same like darkhearth ticket forced you to take immunity classes. there is a way to make runs less bout timer and more about doing but that seems not to happen.

    Did you feel the change in your dungeon runs the week peeps got double lego? Like the difficulty jumped bout 3 levels. Now imagine you get the same feel if you change your outlaw rog for necro frost mage or sthing. Same feel and that is caused by timer being inportant.
    Last edited by Tinary; 2022-04-04 at 07:32 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Try to time 25 currently with still capped dps. Does not work mate. I do ran at 22-23 last season before i had to quit for personal reasons without shards and stuff and you cant see how much easier and fast it is to have the most optimal group? Also this is not about meta since i do not watch streamers but you can logically see and in your case feel, how much better and faster a key would go if a certain spec or class did 15k on a pull like others not 9k. Pure numbers mate. Timer forces you to take better dmg classes. Same like darkhearth ticket forced you to take immunity classes. there is a way to make runs less bout timer and more about doing but that seems not to happen.

    Did you feel the change in your dungeon runs the week peeps got double lego? Like the difficulty jumped bout 3 levels. Now imagine you get the same feel if you change your outlaw rog for necro frost mage or sthing. Same feel and that is caused by timer being inportant.
    Like I said, the only time the timer forces you to do anything is at the very top level, and at that level of competitive play it is perfectly acceptable to have hard metas. General play in M+ has absolutely no preference, you will never pull big enough for caps to matter in every day play, except in very specific circumstances like Ardenweald DoS. The only favouritism is in the players minds. Pug culture will be pug culture.

    But let's humor you for a moment, you dislike the timers in M+ yes? So let's hypothetically remove them. Just straight up remove the timers and let players create their own difficulty. What do you think will happen? I'll tell you what I think will happen based on my 6 years of competitive M+ experience. Everyday key running in the low to mid range (+2 to +20-22ish) will have absolutely no effect, because in those key levels the timer is already basically irrelevant, you never do anything fancy, you just play the game, pulling 1 or 2 packs at a time holding W through the dungeon and win. Nothing will change here, gameplay will remain the exact same and you've accomplished nothing. Pug culture will remain comp-toxic because you can't change human nature. Now, in the high end of keys where the timer is a big deal and you start having to think about comps and doing some fancy routing, this is where things are going to be the most degenerate thing you can possibly imagine. Can't beat a pack? Just wait for cooldowns every single time. Still can't beat it? Let's wait for Heroism/Bloodlust every single pack. We'll just go afk and make a sandwich mid key because we can. Runs will stretch into literal hours and it will become the most unfun content you could envision.

    Sorry, but timers are here to stay and it's nothing but a good thing.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

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