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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I think the problem is not Mythic dungeons, but that the loot from mythic dungeons is far too strong...


    Doing a 15 minute dungeon should never reward you gear on par with a Raid

    Welfare mythic gear has made raid gear trivial... and screwed up the entire gearing system

    There is nothing special about mythic dungeons... in fact dungeons have been neutered to make mythic dungeons seem hard.... interrupts, cc's... this was simply standard practice in older heroics
    So doing a 3m boss where you afk mostly cause you have nothing to do and hardly use your abilitys should award you more than doing a 20-30m dungeon run where you have to use most of your kit? I see

    Interrupts and cc in old heroics? You mean BC? There was some CC but even if it was standard practise, then most of those "old school" dungeon people still dont know what interrupt is, neither a def cd or proper damage rotation. Times change, so does the dungeons and the way it is run, while it might not "feel" hard, I do have to say, tanking a mythic plus high key is alot more fun than raid. In the end, its the matter of personal preference.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekyerbooty View Post
    I think the problem is not Mythic dungeons, but that the loot from mythic dungeons is far too strong...


    Doing a 15 minute dungeon should never reward you gear on par with a Raid

    Welfare mythic gear has made raid gear trivial... and screwed up the entire gearing system

    There is nothing special about mythic dungeons... in fact dungeons have been neutered to make mythic dungeons seem hard.... interrupts, cc's... this was simply standard practice in older heroics
    So you do not like an alternative to gear that directly competes with raids? Raiding like mythic plus now, is a pillar of endgame progression allowing you to avoid raiding completely if you so choose which is what makes me even play the game. If you enjoy raiding just raid but if you want to min/max to your hearts content then understand your going to cause yourself some pain and spend even more time then ever before but once you realize that going hard makes very little sense considering the lottery system of the great vault you will be better for it.

    I would say that i have used my kit far more in Mythic plus then in any raid in recent memory, from using Clash / Paralyze for a ghetto kick or using RoP to move mobs in a spot to allow the dps to have an easier time. The variety and pressure that a timer presents is also fun as i feel people try harder under a more stressful ( timer related ) situation.

    Just tell your guild nah im not going to do it, its that simple also. Being 100% optimal is not the only way to progress your toon either and as more and more players realize that the better but still people are competing in a PvE game so it might take a bit longer i guess.

    But if Raiding was so fun and fantastic it would not need everything else to be worthless to stand on its own 2 feet.

  3. #303
    I'm mainly annoyed with it because everything is just a gold race.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    But if Raiding was so fun and fantastic it would not need everything else to be worthless to stand on its own 2 feet.
    Again, the problem is 2-fold. First that a 15 is far and beyond easier than even a heroic raid and awards better gear (except tier in this case), and secondly that you are going to push people who would rather just raid into doing dungeons. Sure, you could say that raiders don't HAVE to do dungeons in the same way dungeoners wouldn't NEED to do the raids for gear either. I would assume the majority do both in some fashion because that is how you get the biggest benefit while also enjoying a larger variety of content keeping things from getting stale. A solid majority of people I raid with only do a single 15 a week for the vault, but would rather not have to log in to get even that done, let alone 10 a week. Perhaps the biggest but maybe a separate problem is that we get a pool of 8 dungeons to spam on repeat for 2 years, where at least the raid is a bit longer and used to change up every 6 months or so.

    I would argue that the balance is skewed a bit too far towards dungeon supremacy right now. We would ideally have gear be reasonably close to equal, possibly even offset with crafting or reputation gear as a third option for certain slots. Rescaling dungeons so that 10 is normal raid, 15 is heroic, and 20 is mythic level loot would probably be more representative of the loot-difficulty ratio, but the crying would be unbearable.

    As far as dungeon design, I don't blame M+, I solidly blame the people designing the dungeons. Being legion mythic week I spent a lot of time in Eye of Azshara and I think it's a better example of where dungeons could go to make them more interesting in repeated runs. A more open layout with bosses that add zone effects that differ based off which bosses you kill. Some elitists might still make up the ideal strategy, but it gives theorycrafters more to play with and gives people the option to change up the dungeon a little. At this point I'm almost falling asleep doing the same guided rail dungeons for the 100th time almost regardless of key level.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugani View Post
    Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, one is leveling, another is end game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing design into a very narrow path. You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.

    Dungeons used to feel like dangerous places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the player control on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think back to the greats and can't help but look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have become. It sucks, and I hate it.
    they felt like that because people were clueless xD

  6. #306
    I love brd. It's a giant underground city with lots of secrets and different themed parts.
    The fact that you have options to go different routes makes it even better.

    I've spent countless hours in there during classic and gotta say there was a time where i couldnt be asked to go back in there. (Especially after a certain saturday 14hr grind session to get hand of judgement, only for a resto shaman to roll on it and win...)
    But now, after a while, i kinda do want to visit it again.
    (Maybe if there will be another classic after wrath)

    I dont like the streamlined newer dungeons that are designed around the idea of the most optimal route.

    They kind of lack something. I dont know how to call it, but it can be seen in revamps like scarlet monastery or sholomance.
    They were beautiful creations with so much love put into them.
    The new ones just dont feel the same

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanesra View Post
    They kind of lack something. I dont know how to call it, but it can be seen in revamps like scarlet monastery or sholomance.
    They were beautiful creations with so much love put into them.
    The new ones just dont feel the same
    I think it's design priority. Imo modern dungeons are designed with the metagame in mind. Classic dungeons were designed with fantasy in mind. They were an effort to make DnD virtual. Modern dungeons are an effort to make sports virtual.
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  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanesra View Post
    I love brd. It's a giant underground city with lots of secrets and different themed parts.
    The fact that you have options to go different routes makes it even better.

    I've spent countless hours in there during classic and gotta say there was a time where i couldnt be asked to go back in there. (Especially after a certain saturday 14hr grind session to get hand of judgement, only for a resto shaman to roll on it and win...)
    But now, after a while, i kinda do want to visit it again.
    (Maybe if there will be another classic after wrath)

    I dont like the streamlined newer dungeons that are designed around the idea of the most optimal route.

    They kind of lack something. I dont know how to call it, but it can be seen in revamps like scarlet monastery or sholomance.
    They were beautiful creations with so much love put into them.
    The new ones just dont feel the same
    Part of what's lost is that dungeons like BRD were crafted to be an experience that eventually you didn't need to return to (but there was a bunch of different things you could do in there)... and current dungeons are designed to be run over and over for at least an entire expansion. Recreating the feeling you get when you clear a dungeon like BRD is hard to recreate, and time apart from the dungeon can let that curiosity build back up. With how the game is designed now, you have to keep going back over and over every patch via M+, and the immersion/enjoyment factor can suffer from not allowing the experience to breathe and having to continually run the same dungeons over and over.

    The closest thing we've gotten to BRD is the megadungeons, but I don't think anything can come close to BRD... maybe they come close to LBRS/UBRS, but I still think they were made with different philosophies in mind. First half of Mechagon dungeon was pretty similar in feeling, which was a step in the right direction, but the back end of the dungeon was completely linear with no optional pathing or interesting things to do/explore in the streamlined pathing.

    If I had to point toward a specific aspect, it's the RPG aspect. Take the bar in BRD for instance: on the surface, it just looks like a bar, but there's a bunch of different quests and optional bosses in there, a rep vendor for getting recipes, and progression past that area (assuming you don't opt for swimming in lava) has multiple angles of approach, ranging from brute force to having an NPC help you through. I suppose you could throw in the band now, but that originally wasn't there, it's just icing on the cake now. Such details and options are generally not found in dungeons anymore, and while they don't seem like much on the surface, such details add depth to the dungeon itself.

    It doesn't help that the social pillar of WoW is in shambles right now, which doesn't help with the dungeon experience overall. Some of my favorite memories in WoW were of dungeon runs with friends/family as well as randomly people through older content. The mentality that's typically seen in a random group has shifted drastically towards an M+ mentality all the time, even in a normal dungeons with no timers or need for rushing. I was surprised at how often I'd get whispers of thanks and praise after tanking non-M+ dungeons from random people, as I tend to help people with the dungeons, point out mechanics, let people explore, as well as not rush ahead and solo AoE-tank the entire dungeon while random mechanics cause random players to corpse run constantly because they aren't geared or the damage is too great for non-tanks to survive. My approach to a random non-M+ dungeon is akin to how I approached dungeons back in the early days of WoW: I want it to be a fun experience for everyone, and speed-running a dungeon isn't fun for everyone... especially new people to the game.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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  9. #309
    Theatre of Pain is one of my favourite dungeons, De Other Side is also pretty cool. I don't deny that there are some limitations in making dungeons for M+, but I still think the dungeons are fun. Lets not forget that before M+ Blizzard tried and failed to keep dungeons relevant, people just didn't do them because there was no reason, now dungeons have relevance in the long term.

    TBC is the greatest example of this, a guy making a thread about how he struggled for hours to get a dungeon group in TBC on the 2nd highest population realm in EU, Gehennas (aka the Horde megaserver). Why? Because there is no reason to do normal dungeons for most people at this stage of the expansion, even Heroics have limited value with badges dropping from Kara/ZA.
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  10. #310
    The game has changed, as have the rewards used for flexing purposes. In the UBRS/BRD days, yea having a full purple and tier stuff was considered a feat, not so much today. Today it's about your rating and/or your mythic raid clear rank(raiders might enlighten what matters there).
    Megadungeons were cool (past tense), and from design perspective they still can be neat, but how many of the player base would still be up to regular clears of such multi-hour ventures? Take off those rose-tinted glasses and once people were either lucky enough to have those rare drops (reed, hoj and such) from those instances, or just got fed up with them sooner than later, those places were as dreaded as another farm raid to get people attuned.
    I loved BRD from its design point of view, and the lore/RP side, but as a group gaming experience it was nauseating pretty much after the first clear.

    Call me whatever you want, but my memories of old heroics crumbled down quite hard when I had my quick nostalgia trip on the TBC classic. Once your tank could take the hits without getting gibbed, nobody gave a toss about any sort of CC. Need for interrupts wasn't much bigger than their general availability either. The "funniest" mechanic of course was to way too often pull the packs miles away to avoid any unlucky fear to pull 5 extra packs. Exciting times.

  11. #311
    I kinda wish something like BRD could co-exist with the streamlined, smaller dungeons.

    I like both, but BRD like dungeons just don't exist anymore. The mega-dungeons come close, but they're quickly obsolete and that's that.

    BRD is basically a 5 man raid and I wish we had something like that again. Make the new mega dungeon be really hard and drop loot slightly below Mythic raid loot, maybe? And keep updating the loot, without turning it into M+.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2022-05-03 at 04:28 PM.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    I kinda wish something like BRD could co-exist with the streamlined, smaller dungeons.

    I like both, but BRD like dungeons just don't exist anymore. The mega-dungeons come close, but they're quickly obsolete and that's that.

    BRD is basically a 5 man raid and I wish we had something like that again. Make the new mega dungeon be really hard and drop loot slightly below Mythic raid loot, maybe? And keep updating the loot, without turning it into M+.
    Yeah it's actually pretty weird that the mega dungeons are obsolete the moment they are in the game. We did taz hardmode the first night then literally never went back the entire patch because there was no point.

    Maybe they just need a mythic mode or something at the start, something where it could at least drop the same ilvl as 15s and maybe even count for a vault slot if you finish it.

  13. #313
    The problem with mega dungeons is that the game is so figured out due to so many outside media that everything is in the min/max mindset and will continue to be not just for warcraft but almost every online game. What purpose would they serve the community? Is the dev hour spent on them ( if they are not in the M+ pool right away ) worth it? What would be the most effective way to gear ( they should have allowed valor upgrades on the gear atleast ) with them in mind?

    Even in classic almost no one ran them once they got most of what they wanted because the gaming landscape has changed, there is no sense of wonder because its all figured out before its even released.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugani View Post
    Honestly, my biggest gripe with Shadowlands is just how lackluster dungeons feel. They felt so sterile. "Each zone has two dungeons, one is leveling, another is end game, they all feel the same with their semi-linear path, and feature no interesting or fun optional/bonus encounters or side quests." Why, because Mythic+ is forcing design into a very narrow path. You cannot have dungeons like Upper Blackrock Spire or Halls of Origination under this new system; design-wise, the philosophies behind them contrast one another. This is why they are limited to one-off 'mega-dungeons' once per expansion. The target should be a Tazavesh or Mechagon, and not in regards to its length, but in terms of feel.

    Dungeons used to feel like dangerous places with secrets to uncover, truly non-linear in giving the player control on where they wanted to go, and which bosses to kill, places that felt lived in. I think back to the greats and can't help but look at just how shallow these modern dungeons have become. It sucks, and I hate it.
    I agree with this alot, and I'm someone who enjoys m+

    I do miss the feeling of dungeons feeling like, well DUNGEONS. Now they just feel like a leveled instance you hop in and out of in 20 minutes and you can just make it harder. I don't know what the best answer is but i agree with your sentiment.

  15. #315
    not reading all the comments but todays modern dungeon are way to linear and theres nothing to explore

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post
    not reading all the comments but todays modern dungeon are way to linear and theres nothing to explore
    They've been this way since the first expansion, actually.

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