[SPOILER]We finally lost her..Why let Horde lose another character?

[Gadzooks]

What I don't understand with Sylvanas fans is what exactly was so cool about her previous to SL except what many people moan about danusers relation to this character, that she is a blonde gothic elf in mail bikini?
First she stands around for two expansions as a night elf in UC and sings lament of the highborne. Then she becomes evil and bombs people with the plague and raising dead. Where was she "cool" or interesting? Except... Being a blonde gothic elf in a mail bikini

You can always tell who never played W3, or Horde. I vaguely knew who she was, in Vanilla, from W3. Most of the people that I played with in my guild were new to WoW, or from Everquest, so they didn't understand her character either.

Now fire back that of course you played W3, even though anyone who did would never post what you did. I'm not a Sylvanas fanboy, but I understood her character from the beginning in WoW, and thought she had the most tragic story arc Metzen made, even though she didn't get used in a visible way for the Alliance until Wrath. The same could be said for Jaina, she stood in a tower in Theramore for all of vanilla, and was just a non-loot piñata for the Horde to have fun trying to kill.

[bloodkin]

Good to see such a shit character dissappear, but VERY disappointed that she didn't get shat on as bad as arthas got it. Sylvanes was arguably worse than Arthas but still got an undeserved soft ending.

Also, lol @ the people still thinking sylvanes was a horde character and the clowns that thought that character was somehow a representation for the horde.

[Woggmer]

You can always tell who never played W3, or Horde. I vaguely knew who she was, in Vanilla, from W3. Most of the people that I played with in my guild were new to WoW, or from Everquest, so they didn't understand her character either.

Now fire back that of course you played W3, even though anyone who did would never post what you did. I'm not a Sylvanas fanboy, but I understood her character from the beginning in WoW, and thought she had the most tragic story arc Metzen made, even though she didn't get used in a visible way for the Alliance until Wrath. The same could be said for Jaina, she stood in a tower in Theramore for all of vanilla, and was just a non-loot piñata for the Horde to have fun trying to kill.

This. Most characters were nobodies and people go "Who dis and why should I care?" up until Wrath where in-game cinematic were latest thing and there was a lot more characterization. It wouldn't be surprising if it was because of Wrath why Danuser actually likes Sylvanas and wanted to re-capture that same feeling... but didn't go the way he wanted.

I'm not a fan of Sylvanas either, but I can tell everyone that before BfA, people liked her but also feared her... but when she burned Teldrassil, that was the moment her character got butchered and everyone started to hate her for being a polarizing figure.

[Finlandia WOAT]

Better than expected, I thought they'd have Tyrande give a wishy washy word salad of a speech about "choosing renewal over vengeance" and then they'd move on as if Sylvanas had never burned down the tree fort. Acknowledging it and having consequences tangible in the narrative is the lowest bar of storytelling, but they did manage to clear it.

But overall the whole thing is neutered. Here's why: after the SoD finale cinematic, the person who burned down the tree fort is effectively dead. She's gone. No more. Even if this new Sylvanas wasn't controlled by the Jailer, it was still a different being than the Sylvanas made whole again. Having that Sylvanas blubber about how sorry she is feels so hollow. She didn't do anything. That was somebody else.

Two ways I feel are superior while still keeping the twist: either Sylvanas was actually guilt ridden the entire time over doing it (with Anduins subjugation being the final, if relatively mundane, straw). Or she justified it to herself that the Jailers plan was worth any price (did we ever learn what, specifically, Sylvanas thought The Plan was?), and thus his betrayal sent her over the despair event horizon.

I wouldn't mind if they moved on from Sylvanas. I never really saw what other people liked about her.

[Zuben]

Eh, I think it ended as well as it could. The Sylvanas we knew and loved started to vane in BFA and was completely gone when her soul was made whole again. I don't care about this remorseful lady one bit. Having her clean up the Maw so that dumb place can finally be retired is more of a net positive than simply killing her out of existence.

[Algorath]

Sylvanas isn't getting tortured, she's just gonna have to redo the "Return Lost Souls" quest until the Maw is empty.

And that isn't torture?

[TrueHorde]

Some people here keep saying that Sylvanas is very popular, but is she really? I mean, despite being """popular""", she couldn't keep HoTS from dying, nor BfA and Shadowlands from going down in history as terrible expansions only barely better than WoD, so much for that "popularity" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least more popular than Anduin.That's enough.
The lame duck has been the chief actor since 6 years ago.But he's always been so boring.
He even needs to use Arthas' image to increase his influence.

Golden really gave him too much preference.

Anduin....a disappointing person

[Accendor]

So much Bullshit, oh my god. It was time for her to die, everybody knows it. This is neither revenge nor renewal. I can't believe those writer wtf

[Syegfryed]

Yeah 'cos the Jailer had lied to her and presented a worse existence than the one she hoped to destroy. It doesn't mean all is forgiven and her past crimes are wiped free.

the reasons doesn't matter, is straight up a redemption story, that people didn't like it and they came up with this bs so she could held account for something.

Yeah the evil bald guy named the jailor, who use domination magic so everyone can serve was lying, oh boy, who could have foreseen that.

[Maxilian]

I'm actually ok with this ending for her, it open the possibility to see her again in the future (regardless how far it is, and I think she should stay there for a lot of time), but I wonder what we will be done about Nathanos, I kind of feel bad that Nathanos was left forgotten.

[Gaidax]

I mean, yeeting Sylvanas into the maw is very fitting.

I am sure they will dust her off and pull her out few years down the road, but for now it's good to finally be rid of her bullshit for a few years.

[Kharnath]

I don't agree with equality in losing characters. Losing Vol'jin because they lost Varian was the silliest thing. He never got to do anything but ppl would've moaned that the other faction should lose the same. So I'm fine with Alliance not losing someone in turn.

Like Arthas? I mean sure he was the lich king and all that but I still saw him as an Alliance character at his core and he is gone now.

[Souflikar]

She gets the maw while Arthas goes “poof” like a fart in the wind, interesting. I thought only souls go to the maw or SL in general. Did I misunderstand or miss a key point in SL?

[Stickiler]

But overall the whole thing is neutered. Here's why: after the SoD finale cinematic, the person who burned down the tree fort is effectively dead. She's gone. No more. Even if this new Sylvanas wasn't controlled by the Jailer, it was still a different being than the Sylvanas made whole again. Having that Sylvanas blubber about how sorry she is feels so hollow. She didn't do anything. That was somebody else.

This is just absolutely wrong. The game goes out of it's way in the cinematic to tell you that she's the same person, it's literally the main point of half that cutscene.

Two ways I feel are superior while still keeping the twist: either Sylvanas was actually guilt ridden the entire time over doing it (with Anduins subjugation being the final, if relatively mundane, straw). Or she justified it to herself that the Jailers plan was worth any price (did we ever learn what, specifically, Sylvanas thought The Plan was?), and thus his betrayal sent her over the despair event horizon. .

This is basically exactly what happened. It's mindblowing that you're like "If only they'd written the story exactly as they wrote it, it'd be so much better".
They've shown that Sylvanas is incredibly uncomfortable with what the jailer did with Anduin, because of her own experiences with domination, and the final scene at the end of SoD where he chains the other people is the tipping point.

[bloodmoth13]

Why did Anduin survive and live well? Can't the Alliance lose one or two main character?

Varok,Sylvanas....what did the Hordefans win?? We are all losers!

dont worry, soon only baine will be left and the horde will BE the alliance! /s

This has been ongoing since... what cata? probably earlier even with BC

BC Horde loses plenty of potential characters like Kael thas, all of the interesting left over old horde remnants from warcraft II and Zuljin. You could make a very good argument that none of those had anything to do with the current horde and id agree tbh, but looking at the alliance they gained all of their war2 heroes back other than turalyon and alleria who are now back since legion.

Cata launches and thrall turns neutral and hasnt been horde since, we lost cairne.

MoP we lose garrosh because orc bad.

WoD was basically irrelevant, but for thoroughness we lost every orc warlord again if that counts, allies lost velen but not really and lost maraad but got yrel i guess?

Legion alliance finally loses someone important! but in order to not hurt their feefees blizz went ahead and killed voljin for parity to an unnamed warlock pet and he bitched out and made sylvanas warchief because hes not only weak but hes also incredibly stupid.

BFA horde lost their pride, sourfang, nathanos, sleazy fat goblin and sylvanas. I think it counts also that horde lost Rastakhan, he looked sick, had an awesome hat and an awesome name. RASTAKHAN
-At this point i believe the goblins, darkspear and orcs are without leadership, our leaders are ... what baine, 'sylvanas', lorthemar aaand thats it?
By the end of BfA the only leader left standing in azeroth is lorthemar and allied race leaders. that leaves Lorthemar was in talks to rejoin the alliance before jaina went NATO on them in cata so i guess you could say the horde is now defacto alliance.

Alliance on the other hand still have tyrande, malfurion, mekkatorque, anduin, magni/muradin, velen and genn. literally lost nobody important (other than varian i suppose)
VS horde having baine and lorthemar.

I guess we know that voljin is coming back and i guess thrall will too so i suppose we could undo those from the list but damn does it suck to be horde. On top of that being the bad guys twice in a row and not learning anything from garrosh is such a slap in the face in BFA. Like, garrosh was bad and made the horde bad but the horde saw through it and overthrew him and we're good, and then sylvanas commits genocide and literally nobody actually stands against her. Like, she was the most upstart of upstarts in the horde and we're to believe that she has actual control over every facet of the horde? like the entire horde would back her over baine and saurfang? literally immediately after they just went through the story arc of 'dont do everything a leader does if its bad' story arc? Ughghhghghghgh.

All they had to do for BFA was make alliance attack lordaeron (they had every justification to do so) first and change nothing else and the entire story would have made far more sense but instead of the story being grey they HAD to paint it black and white. Also horde lost both warfronts gg.

- - - Updated - - -

And that isn't torture?

grinding maw dailies for eternity - not torture
lmao

[Finlandia WOAT]

This is just absolutely wrong. The game goes out of it's way in the cinematic to tell you that she's the same person, it's literally the main point of half that cutscene.

It's not. The Sylvanas we've been dealing with for all of WoW is her soul shattered, the Sylvanas we're dealing with now only understands that as someone who is "her" but is not her in agency. It's strikes me as if the Ranger-General teleported into the future and learned what her future self had done...a not uncommon trope, but clearly future you and "present" you are not the same being.

Also their personalities and eye colors switch. So other than the Ranger-General not remembering or approving of anything Zombie Sylvanas did, or looking different, or acting different, then yeah, the game is saying this is the same person.

Uther can sit there and insist all he wants that they're "the same". I'm not buying it on an emotional level.

This is basically exactly what happened. It's mindblowing that you're like "If only they'd written the story exactly as they wrote it, it'd be so much better".They've shown that Sylvanas is incredibly uncomfortable with what the jailer did with Anduin, because of her own experiences with domination, and the final scene at the end of SoD where he chains the other people is the tipping point.

1) re bolded, I'm not talking about her discomfort with Anduin, I'm talking about her regret over burning Teldrassil. Did she, before she got her fragment back, ever express regret over it?
2)No, her tipping point is her realizing that the Jailer intends to enslave everyone, including her, All will serve serve [Arthas] SERVE I WILL NOT SERVE etc. Well executed moment. Makes her look like a moron for not realizing where this was going. Did she actually think.... I still don't know what she actually thought. And we'll never know.

[aceperson]

i'm just happy this trainwreck of a story is not being forced on us in the near future. not how i would've preferred it to end but this is far from the worst ending for sylvanas.

[Golden Yak]

That fate is actually rad.

[Kallisto]

This is just absolutely wrong. The game goes out of it's way in the cinematic to tell you that she's the same person, it's literally the main point of half that cutscene.

The problem is that anyone and everyone that did the ICC dungeons knows that can not be the case. We see one half of Uther's soul being its own entity with its own views when Jaina comes close to frostmourne. Yet at the same time the other half of Uther's soul also had its own views being its own entity. As such no new cinematic can turn around and go "No, the soul of sylvanas is 100% the same thing as the banshee queen."

[Vakir]

That cinematic can tell you both sides of her are the same person, but it buries the lede and overcomplicates it in the process. Why not just have Sylvanas develop a sense of empathy and remorse authentically while in undeath? Why implement a bunch of impossible to relate to fantasy apparatuses to explain away these very universal concepts in the first place?

I can't blame the soul splitting aspect being confusing as to whether it's meant to absolve her because it was an unnecessary thing to bring into the fold in the first place. Anger, resentment, and hurt from prior trauma is a fairly universally understood concept even if not everyone has experienced the same things. Soul crystals and mourneblades are not.

Imagine if...I dunno, Prince Zuko had "spiritual blockage" from his facial scar due being firebent there which made him mystically more of a dick. Instead of questioning his belief system, challenging his need for validation from an abuser, and having a Come to Buddha moment in the 11th hour, he's healed in some way and he conveniently also acts better after that. Wouldn't that kinda undermine things, even if they prefaced it with "but your actions were your own still!"?

I actually like this ending, and I hope they give her a better showing as a character in 2-3 expansions, but everything getting there, from the 9.1 finale through Shattered Legacies and even the Anduin finale, was all wrong.