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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude, he thinks that there’s no need to incentivize group content, you think there’s no need to incentivize solo content, there’s not much more to say, you’ll never converge.

    But whatever the faction, one thing is 100% true: if the game NEEDS to “over incentivize” you to do a SPECIFIC activity you wouldn’t do else, it means that that activity is not fun. Be it multi or single player related.
    In some way or form most games incentivize doing specific things. In games where you have choices about what to do at least. Its not inherently a bad thing for the developers to try and steer their players. In the case of mmo's its a sad truth that many mmos have been prioritising smaller and smaller group content/solo content to the extend that some of them are basically single player games with a world chat.

    The idea of an mmo being a social game where teamwork is at the front is no longer the case for most "mmo'.

    Anyway the idea of incenivizing things like raids or dungeons is to show people how fun it ca nbe in a premade group enviroment with people you know/are friends with. Thats literally the thing that made wow massive back in the day.

    Edit:
    Oh and as for the opinion vs opinion thing - thats not why i stopped arguing with him. He started attributing things to me that i never said, exaggerating things i said, dismissing factual definitions of words and all this without providing any counter argument to them other then "nope i am right". When people do that you cant have a proper discussion with them.
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2022-04-11 at 07:11 AM.

  2. #82
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    You will be able to craft them soon.
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    This sums up everything you have said in all your posts to me :P

    Not a single place - not ONE single place - do you provide a source for your assumptions.

    Its impossible to have an actual discussion when your idea of an argument is: "NUR I AM RIGHT" lol
    About the response I'd expect from you after you're proved wrong by your own quotes. But go ahead and keep thinking you're the authority on how MMO's should be played, the reality will remain that no one else cares because they're too busy finding their own ways to have fun.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    In some way or form most games incentivize doing specific things. In games where you have choices about what to do at least. Its not inherently a bad thing for the developers to try and steer their players. In the case of mmo's its a sad truth that many mmos have been prioritising smaller and smaller group content/solo content to the extend that some of them are basically single player games with a world chat.

    The idea of an mmo being a social game where teamwork is at the front is no longer the case for most "mmo'.

    Anyway the idea of incenivizing things like raids or dungeons is to show people how fun it ca nbe in a premade group enviroment with people you know/are friends with. Thats literally the thing that made wow massive back in the day.

    Edit:
    Oh and as for the opinion vs opinion thing - thats not why i stopped arguing with him. He started attributing things to me that i never said, exaggerating things i said, dismissing factual definitions of words and all this without providing any counter argument to them other then "nope i am right". When people do that you cant have a proper discussion with them.

    I think that the “real” problem is not incentivize group content, is more, for Blizzard, make grouping faster and easier.

    A lot of people me included would love to do M+ but they can’t afford to waste half of their play time to find or form a group.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    About the response I'd expect from you after you're proved wrong by your own quotes. But go ahead and keep thinking you're the authority on how MMO's should be played, the reality will remain that no one else cares because they're too busy finding their own ways to have fun.
    I asked you to you back up your statements but you couldnt. You made several false quotes, you dismissed miriam webster as a bad dictionary and yet not once where you able to procure your own source for any of your arguments.

    If you accuse me of having written something and then refuse to actually specify where that quote is from then you are not worth effort arguing against.

    The burden of proof is on you and you failed to deliver.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I think that the “real” problem is not incentivize group content, is more, for Blizzard, make grouping faster and easier.

    A lot of people me included would love to do M+ but they can’t afford to waste half of their play time to find or form a group.
    Thats a good point.

    Personally i think the biggest problem atm is the weekly vault. Incentivising doing a specific amount of "high" keys per week or you miss the loot forever from that vault is kind of poor game design.

    I think its because they for some reason are scared of people gearing up too fast and then running out of content.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I asked you to you back up your statements but you couldnt. You made several false quotes, you dismissed miriam webster as a bad dictionary and yet not once where you able to procure your own source for any of your arguments.

    If you accuse me of having written something and then refuse to actually specify where that quote is from then you are not worth effort arguing against.

    The burden of proof is on you and you failed to deliver.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thats a good point.

    Personally i think the biggest problem atm is the weekly vault. Incentivising doing a specific amount of "high" keys per week or you miss the loot forever from that vault is kind of poor game design.

    I think its because they for some reason are scared of people gearing up too fast and then running out of content.
    I don’t have the metrics but it’s clear that whatever Blizzard does, there will be always people who rush content and will quickly starve with content. They should not consider those and wrap content around “the average”, whatever the average is.

    ZM for example is tuned correctly pace wise but now I’m basically done apart from set pieces and one weapon, don’t have much will to repeat all the process with alts, feels kinda pointless.

    But again the main issue of group content is grouping itself, nowadays. I will switch to D3 S26 in the weekend and probably won’t be back in WoW for the next 3 months or so.

  7. #87
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    The vault shouldnt give any equipment of real value.
    Maybe secondary equipment, but nothing BIS, ever... ever again.

    That should come from raid bosses, not even from dungeons, not even from M+

    M+ should be done for fun, and get some loot, but never BIS equipment either.

    Hate it all you want, that´s how I see it.

  8. #88
    The Lightbringer
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    ITT: raiders mad that they can't be boosted by good players who don't bother doing raids anymore and just play with their friends/other good players in keys

    ITT: raiders mad they aren't the focus anymore, which is hilarious since the vast majority of them are sweaty try-hards anyway and still farm keys for the very thing they complain about

    Also ITT: kids mad they can't get loot to drop in raid (or are trash and watch better players get it ML'd to them) and mad that Jimmy Badhunter got 4pc at 278 from doing a single 15 overtime each week the last month

    Even so, I'd still like a way to get shit you want out of the box or from tokens or something else. Just removing stuff from keys is never going to happen and is a dumb idea. Raiders are a dying class and it amuses me because the real raiding community that I grew up with is gone and dead and replaced by you sweaters so it amuses me to see you be replaced by someone else.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  9. #89
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    The vault shouldnt give any equipment of real value.
    Maybe secondary equipment, but nothing BIS, ever... ever again.

    That should come from raid bosses, not even from dungeons, not even from M+

    M+ should be done for fun, and get some loot, but never BIS equipment either.

    Hate it all you want, that´s how I see it.
    Yeah, fuck people who don't want to raid, they should be forced into raid so they can have fun!

    Just do what they've done with pvp gear, scale m+ gear higher in m+ and raid gear higher in raids, cap it at 275 in overworld / "wrong" content

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    The vault shouldnt give any equipment of real value.
    Maybe secondary equipment, but nothing BIS, ever... ever again.

    That should come from raid bosses, not even from dungeons, not even from M+

    M+ should be done for fun, and get some loot, but never BIS equipment either.

    Hate it all you want, that´s how I see it.
    What if someone else comes in and says that BIS equipment should come from dungeons and raids should be done for fun?
    After all it's not called Raid of Warcraft.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    ITT: raiders mad that they can't be boosted by good players who don't bother doing raids anymore and just play with their friends/other good players in keys

    ITT: raiders mad they aren't the focus anymore, which is hilarious since the vast majority of them are sweaty try-hards anyway and still farm keys for the very thing they complain about

    Also ITT: kids mad they can't get loot to drop in raid (or are trash and watch better players get it ML'd to them) and mad that Jimmy Badhunter got 4pc at 278 from doing a single 15 overtime each week the last month

    Even so, I'd still like a way to get shit you want out of the box or from tokens or something else. Just removing stuff from keys is never going to happen and is a dumb idea. Raiders are a dying class and it amuses me because the real raiding community that I grew up with is gone and dead and replaced by you sweaters so it amuses me to see you be replaced by someone else.
    You got some extreme bias going on in your logic there bro

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    What if someone else comes in and says that BIS equipment should come from dungeons and raids should be done for fun?
    After all it's not called Raid of Warcraft.
    I honestly think that would kill wow.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You got some extreme bias going on in your logic there bro

    - - - Updated - - -



    I honestly think that would kill wow.
    Would it? Pretty sure that are waaaaaaaaaaay more people not raiding than there are raiding.

    Also, wasn't suggesting that with a straight face of course. Just to point out that making any of the PVP, M+, Raiding to be done just for fun without offering player progression, would be as dumb as it gets.
    Last edited by kranur; 2022-04-11 at 01:26 PM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Would it? Pretty sure that are waaaaaaaaaaay more people not raiding than there are raiding.

    Also, wasn't suggesting that with a straight face of course. Just to point out that making any of the PVP, M+, Raiding to be done just for fun without offering player progression, would be as dumb as it gets.
    I agree yes, there are many more people not raiding. But the people farming, offering boosts, stocking the AH and so forth are raiders. I'm sure some people play it as a 100% solo game but i doubt its worth any effort on blizzards side to maintain new expansions or content for them alone.

  14. #94
    I think one of the most important innovations is the catalyst for creation, I really hope they keep that in the future.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    This sums up everything you have said in all your posts to me :P

    Not a single place - not ONE single place - do you provide a source for your assumptions.

    Its impossible to have an actual discussion when your idea of an argument is: "NUR I AM RIGHT" lol
    He is absolutely right, you have no argument, only your feelings. While literally everything else pointing that your feelings are totally unrelated to reality and majority.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    He is absolutely right, you have no argument, only your feelings. While literally everything else pointing that your feelings are totally unrelated to reality and majority.
    I've presented arguments for everything i've said - if you can point towards something and ask for clarification then feel free.

    On the other hand he refuses to name the sources of the oppinions he attributed to me out of the blue.

    Just because i dont agree with you doesnt mean you have to act like a drone towards anyone with the same opinion as you. Its never a good idea to blindly agree with soemone.

    While literally everything else pointing that your feelings are totally unrelated to reality and majority
    This is possibly the furthest thing from a coherent sentence i've read on these forums in at least 3 weeks
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2022-04-11 at 05:04 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I've presented arguments for everything i've said - if you can point towards something and ask for clarification then feel free.

    On the other hand he refuses to name the sources of the oppinions he attributed to me out of the blue.

    Just because i dont agree with you doesnt mean you have to act like a drone towards anyone with the same opinion as you. Its never a good idea to blindly agree with soemone.



    This is possibly the furthest thing i've read from a coherent sentence on these forums in at least 3 weeks
    You did not, you think group content needs some kind of bribe to get people into it which currently isn't working. That's not argument, that is just your feeling. Which btw was already debunked by Ghostcrawler years ago.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You did not, you think group content needs some kind of bribe to get people into it which currently isn't working. That's not argument, that is just your feeling. Which btw was already debunked by Ghostcrawler years ago.
    You did not, you think group content needs some kind of bribe to get people into it which currently isn't working
    This is not a complete sentence.

    That's not argument, that is just your feeling.
    its an opinion, its not a feeling.

    My opinion is that there should be an incentive for doing harder and more troublesome content, yes. Especially because this is an mmo.

    Which btw was already debunked by Ghostcrawler years ago.
    What?

    While literally everything else pointing that your feelings are totally unrelated to reality and majority
    Also feel free to elaborate on this masterpiece of a galaxybrain statement.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    This is not a complete sentence.



    its an opinion, its not a feeling.

    My opinion is that there should be an incentive for doing harder and more troublesome content, yes. Especially because this is an mmo.



    What?



    Also feel free to elaborate on this masterpiece of a galaxybrain statement.
    If you are having problems processing simple senteces then no wonder you can't formulate proper argument.

    "Especially because this is an mmo." - So its simply based on your feelings.
    Adams surmised it quite nicely here https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53693925

    Bribing people to do group content (by making shit experience for everyone else) is not going to work, has never worked and will not work.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    "Especially because this is an mmo." - So its simply based on your feelings.
    Adams surmised it quite nicely here https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53693925

    Bribing people to do group content (by making shit experience for everyone else) is not going to work, has never worked and will not work.
    If you are having problems processing simple senteces then no wonder you can't formulate proper argument.
    I dont. Its just that your sentences are not coherent. I guess thats why you refuse to elaborate on them aswell.

    "Especially because this is an mmo." - So its simply based on your feelings.
    You keep conflating "feeling" with "opinion". Perhaps its the poor English kicking in again but those two are not synonyms.

    Its also not really my opinion that its an mmo - its a fact.

    Bribing people to do group content (by making shit experience for everyone else) is not going to work, has never worked and will not work.
    If by bribing people you men incentivizing them then i'd counter argue with an actual argument:

    It worked pretty damn well up until they stopped doing it. Wow being the biggest ever mmo by far with literally no close competition for nearly a decade.
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2022-04-12 at 08:21 AM.

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