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  1. #101
    Nothing out of the ordinary.

    After enduring a few months of "Liquit" jokes, they'll back back exactly where they were.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    You're missing a lot of context. Ghostcrawler was talking very specifically about heroic dungeons, you know, casual and gearing content. When it comes to raiding, the game offers four difficulty tiers. One tier being "too hard" does not steer people from raids; they simply go down to the tier that suits them. If they choose not to raid, it's because of time commitment, quality of other players, or whatever else.

    There has been no evidence presented that equates a significant number of people not raiding and the difficulty of raids.

    edit: To add, Ghostcrawler's comments were from Cataclysm. Even if it were applicable to raids, it's so far out of context now. In 2022, where Elden Ring sold as many copies as it did, it's absolutely laughable that hard difficulty drives people away.
    It's not that people "go down to the tier that suits them". Heroic and below are not interesting... they are typically far too easily outgeared. What happens is there are a lot of people who just don't have any interesting raiding content to do, because mythic is designed exclusively for organized guilds and can't be pugged no matter how much gear you have because coordination requirements are too high, and heroic is too easy.

    The devs seem totally unaware of this because they seem really focused on the top end (similar to the problem with m+ design), and they aren't thinking about what is fun for the other 95 out of 100 players who can't block off the same two/three nights a week every week for mythic. Given that wow's population is old, this seems like a really dumb way for them to design a game.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Nothing out of the ordinary.

    After enduring a few months of "Liquit" jokes, they'll back back exactly where they were.
    I wouldn't count on that. Method is going to bump them out of their #2 spot, just like they did this tier. Liquid will be staring at #3 in their best case scenario.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    You're wrong, but whatever lol. Players go play EU if they get offered a better spot in a better guild with better pay. Liquid blew this tier, period.
    Did I ever imply otherwise? I just disagreed with your overly cynical take about the guild being on the verge of disbandment.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Did I ever imply otherwise? I just disagreed with your overly cynical take about the guild being on the verge of disbandment.
    I never said they were on the verge of disbandment. You're the one who said it's "100% not happening" and all I said was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Except we've seen it happen with guilds in the past, claiming that it 100% won't is just your bias speaking. Guilds like Echo, Method, ect will and have poached players from guilds such as Blood Legion, Vodka, or Paragon. The players are more inclined to leave the guild because of the shit performance that happened this tier, in turn would make them have to recruit new players for their roster. It's a cycle and eventually a guild just falls apart due to something significant like being a "world first guild" and then falling to world 5th lol.
    It wouldn't be the first time a US first guild fell apart due to poor performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    I never said they were on the verge of disbandment. You're the one who said it's "100% not happening" and all I said was:



    It wouldn't be the first time a US first guild fell apart due to poor performance.
    Bro, go back another page.

    Quote Originally Posted by you, a page before that
    Liquid might very well fall apart after screwing up so badly this tier.
    Don't move goal posts. You made a ridiculous claim, I disagreed with it for the reasons I've since stated. Liquid is not disbanding. End of.

    /mic

  7. #107
    Like any competitive team does? Some people stay, some move on, but the team will very likely be back for the next tier/season. The bigger question in my opinion is, what is this next tier and when shall people see it? If you care for playing the game and not just for internet drama that is.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    2 toons is what the fatboss guys were doing in 9.0 and that was slacking because they didn’t like the grind. Top guilds all have 4
    1 main
    1 main alt
    2 alts for splits
    I wasn't counting any possible alts for splits, because those take very little time and various semi-casual players do that too.

    A main can take 10X the time an alt for splits needs because those alts can literally only raid log (e.g. no reps at all etc.).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  9. #109
    You can say whatever you want atm there is NO guild that can match echo in raiding period. They always find a good strat and they always somehow can find a way to be faster.

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    Rwf players and mdi players dont need to complain they get PAID to play so its THEIR JOB.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    The raid tier tuning was great, I think. Happy to see that things don't get steamrolled.

    So, they'll return next expansion for a new race.
    You trolling? If second legendary was out at launch it would have been fine but tuning the second half to require second legendary was absurd. That should be evident by how much the instance got knee capped post race significantly more than usual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    Are players nowadays this weak? Races lasted waaaay longer before. Ulduar is considered one
    of the best raids and it had more bosses and the WF race lasted longer.
    Uld wasn't day raided. Day raiding for a month is absolutely exhausting. Uld also was tuned horribly at least zero light was. The only reason it eventually died was abusing channeled spells ability to keep going while turned and stacking those classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I doubt more than half of them do that. I think the norm of super hard core guilds is to have at least 2 characters maxed up, and around half of them being more crazy than that and going to a 3rd or 4th.
    For the race every main raider had at least 3 buckets of the same class believe most had 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    Can’t forget

    Limit: this boss can’t be killed
    Echo: HOLD MY ELX

    I alive seeing these teams just pull damage out of their ass and echo is the best at it
    It wasn't out damaging it was liquid assuming blizz would hotfix the being dead but immortal strat which gave another 1 minute past enrage. For example in the past they hotfixed liquids nzoth mid pull and despawned him across the entire na server set because it mechanic skipped and that wasn't even intentional. Living a full minute past enrage using the necro soulbind was also assumed to be not allowed. To beat it within the enrage was not mathematically possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Scripe said he won’t even take a part in the next race unless US server reset advantage is removed.
    Oh then EU guilds will actually have to deal with bugged bosses before the final one should be amusing to see how that attitude changes sitting on a boss for six hours waiting for bug fixes. Also if they do a worldwide release there are some really good cn guilds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    There's this weird idea that Liquid isn't focused because they're bantering and enjoying themselves. Max has said 100 times that's how they play well. If they're not chatting and having fun then the morale of the whole group drops and they don't play as well. It's just different group dynamics. Echo is quiet and focused, Liquid is chatty and focused.

    IMO it was their event that ruined their chances. They didn't have contingency plans for if it ran long and ended up dealing with tons of logistical issues like rebooking flights, moving hotels, people having to go home for family etc. If they'd just cut the event after the first week and gone home, they'd likely have been in much higher spirits for the last few days and had a better chance of winning. I'm not saying they'd definitely have won for any reason, just that they'd have been playing on their own terms without so much outside stress affecting them.
    They lost a main tank to family emergency and Trill to AWC they were there for 25 days that's way too freaking long of a tier. Also not sure why blizz keeps conflating raid tier releases with AWC and M+ stuff.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    Are players nowadays this weak? Races lasted waaaay longer before. Ulduar is considered one
    of the best raids and it had more bosses and the WF race lasted longer.
    There is no way you are this out of touch? Its not even the same game it was back then. Dont be silly.

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    Eu guilds have dealt with bugged bosses before. Echo is just better atm.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    It's fun for everyone to watch but when they start thinking that their opinion matters in how raids should be designed, they're kidding themselves.
    Clearly the raid designers think their opinion matters they design the raids too damn difficult and if im not mistaken an actual dev tends to hang around regularly while Max is streaming. They definitely influence the way the raids are made.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    Clearly the raid designers think their opinion matters they design the raids too damn difficult and if im not mistaken an actual dev tends to hang around regularly while Max is streaming. They definitely influence the way the raids are made.
    Not surprising. The RWF is a massive marketing tool that costs Blizzard very little, they'd be stupid not to make use of it.

    And it's not JUST Liquid - they set up a private discord for the last race, for example, where several top guilds were invited and could directly talk to devs to give feedback, ask questions, and report bugs. Liquid has the advantage of hanging in the same time zone, though - so it's more likely they'll be watched the whole time, whereas a EU or CN guild would be also be active during times most US people (i.e. Blizzard devs) are asleep.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You trolling? If second legendary was out at launch it would have been fine but tuning the second half to require second legendary was absurd. That should be evident by how much the instance got knee capped post race significantly more than usual.

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    Uld wasn't day raided. Day raiding for a month is absolutely exhausting. Uld also was tuned horribly at least zero light was. The only reason it eventually died was abusing channeled spells ability to keep going while turned and stacking those classes.

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    For the race every main raider had at least 3 buckets of the same class believe most had 4.

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    It wasn't out damaging it was liquid assuming blizz would hotfix the being dead but immortal strat which gave another 1 minute past enrage. For example in the past they hotfixed liquids nzoth mid pull and despawned him across the entire na server set because it mechanic skipped and that wasn't even intentional. Living a full minute past enrage using the necro soulbind was also assumed to be not allowed. To beat it within the enrage was not mathematically possible.

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    Oh then EU guilds will actually have to deal with bugged bosses before the final one should be amusing to see how that attitude changes sitting on a boss for six hours waiting for bug fixes. Also if they do a worldwide release there are some really good cn guilds.

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    They lost a main tank to family emergency and Trill to AWC they were there for 25 days that's way too freaking long of a tier. Also not sure why blizz keeps conflating raid tier releases with AWC and M+ stuff.
    I mean I agree the tier was tuned way too tightly even blizz admits that but Echo did outplay and out damage limit

    We also have to keep in mind that limit let sloppy play continue because of high output which is why they had a lot of wipes to instant kill mechanics along with Max not willing to be aggressive with calling the players out

    For example when a bomb wipes halondrus a dozen times in a row because amage keeps blinking after being told not to blink then it shouldn't be "remember guys don't blink or anything through these orbs with bombs because the hitbox is off" it should be "firedup I've already told you to not blink so why do you keep doing it?"

    And as for more damage let's not forget echo on Sylvanas just upping their damage for an extra 10% and getting a clean kill

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The RWF is a massive marketing tool that costs Blizzard very little
    It's mainly pass time to people who are already subscribers. Nobody is going to play the game for the first time in their lives because they see a bunch of manbabies playing 24/7 for 2 weeks.
    The fact the popularity of the game on google trends is on a downtrend for years is the main metric that matters.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's mainly pass time to people who are already subscribers. Nobody is going to play the game for the first time in their lives because they see a bunch of manbabies playing 24/7 for 2 weeks.
    The fact the popularity of the game on google trends is on a downtrend for years is the main metric that matters.
    I apologize, I didn't know we had someone here who's privy to Blizzard's internal numbers. Are you still working for their marketing department, or was that a previous position?

  17. #117
    Hot take, the only way to rescue WoW from an inevitable demise is the destruction of raiding as we know it. Organized raiding belongs to a bygone age. It's not for this generation, and if something isn't for this generation it's a dying game. The entire WoW needs a Diablofication. The game has like 500 dungeons and raids. Make every last one of them playable with scaling mobs and bosses. Make them soloable like Torghast. Give raids a Solo queue like DF arenas. A ton of people like Diablo, except for the fact it's not an MMO. The good part of Diablo is that you can grind whatever you want for your e-peen gear. Put that in WoW.

    Before the 'I'd quit if they did that' I don't think so. Most of WoW addicts are fully committed to playing this game untill they die of old age and suffer from serious sunk costs fallacies. The hardcore raiders will continue no matter what happens to the game so no harm done. You can screw em over as hard as you want and they'll still keep playing. What the game needs is a breath of fresh air, and not just expansions that are always more of the same. WoW expansions are always the same game with new zones and a new raid. It's a dying concept. Re-invent the game and all of a sudden no other MMO compares in the amount of content and zones this game can give its players to play in.
    Last edited by sensei-; 2022-08-05 at 07:05 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Hot take, the only way to rescue WoW from an inevitable demise is the destruction of raiding as we know it. Organized raiding belongs to a bygone age. It's not for this generation, and if something isn't for this generation it's a dying game. The entire WoW needs a Diablofication. The game has like 500 dungeons and raids. Make every last one of them playable with scaling mobs and bosses. Make them soloable like Torghast. Give raids a Solo queue like DF arenas. A ton of people like Diablo, except for the fact it's not an MMO. The good part of Diablo is that you can grind whatever you want for your e-peen gear. Put that in WoW.

    Before the 'I'd quit if they did that' I don't think so. Most of WoW addicts are fully committed to playing this game untill they die of old age and suffer from serious sunk costs fallacies. The hardcore raiders will continue no matter what happens to the game so no harm done. You can screw em over as hard as you want and they'll still keep playing. What the game is a breathe of fresh air, and not just expansions that are always more of the same. WoW expansions are always the same game with new zones and a new raid. It's a dying concept. Re-invent the game and all of a sudden no other MMO compares in the amount of content and zones this game can give its players to play in.
    "In order to save WoW, it must instead just be another game."

    That's not a hot take. Nobody takes these kinds of suggestions seriously. Just play Diablo my guy. WoW isn't for you anymore and that's okay.

  19. #119
    Immortal Zelk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Hot take, the only way to rescue WoW from an inevitable demise is the destruction of raiding as we know it. Organized raiding belongs to a bygone age. It's not for this generation, and if something isn't for this generation it's a dying game. The entire WoW needs a Diablofication. The game has like 500 dungeons and raids. Make every last one of them playable with scaling mobs and bosses. Make them soloable like Torghast. Give raids a Solo queue like DF arenas. A ton of people like Diablo, except for the fact it's not an MMO. The good part of Diablo is that you can grind whatever you want for your e-peen gear. Put that in WoW.

    Before the 'I'd quit if they did that' I don't think so. Most of WoW addicts are fully committed to playing this game untill they die of old age and suffer from serious sunk costs fallacies. The hardcore raiders will continue no matter what happens to the game so no harm done. You can screw em over as hard as you want and they'll still keep playing. What the game needs is a breath of fresh air, and not just expansions that are always more of the same. WoW expansions are always the same game with new zones and a new raid. It's a dying concept. Re-invent the game and all of a sudden no other MMO compares in the amount of content and zones this game can give its players to play in.
    Personally I think they should turn wow into a football sim like FIFA

  20. #120
    The dying generation always fights against change. Sometimes it's called conservatism. In this case it's just futile. WoW has been steadily changing towards a more modern bite size experience that soloists can enjoy but which can also be played in groups. What it still needs is the last big jump forward.

    After they don't have to spend thousands of work hours designing content for a fraction of the player base (addicts who like to have their entire life scheduled around a video game where you don't even play against other players but scripted boss fights) and a 2 week stream show about 40 players worldwide competing once a year they'll be able to make the rest of the game simply amazing.

    I mean what do you think Fated raids are? A one-off experience? That's the future. Except they'll make them all infinitely scaling.
    Last edited by sensei-; 2022-08-05 at 07:31 PM.

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