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  1. #61
    Are people getting charged money for parsing?

  2. #62
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Measuring performance can be a helpful tool to help your group improve and beat something they have previously struggled with.
    Issues might arise when people are unwilling or incapable of improving in the timeframe expected by the more experienced / capable players, creating this social tension you could call toxicity.

    Who would be in the wrong there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Your second statement contradicts your first. 80-90% is by definition a "top parser", because 50% is average, and you're in the top percentage.
    Gonna have to disagree here. The difference in damage output between 80-90% and the top 10 of 99% is usually still quite large. I'd say 80-90 is above average to good and there's nothing wrong with that.
    ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  3. #63
    Isn't parsing just speedrunning just for fun at it's core? Refining your skills at a boss to perfection?

    I've been in parse parties and it's been great fun, you'll have a certain barrier of entry of course but I never had toxicity in there.

    Where is the problem in people having fun?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sting View Post

    Gonna have to disagree here. The difference in damage output between 80-90% and the top 10 of 99% is usually still quite large. I'd say 80-90 is above average to good and there's nothing wrong with that.
    The difference in 97-100% is literally crit+d.hit luck.
    I'm not joking, you can have SAM with the exact same gcds and ogcds in the same party constellation and it simply comes down to luck how high they can climb.

  4. #64
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    The difference in 97-100% is literally crit+d.hit luck.
    I'm not joking, you can have SAM with the exact same gcds and ogcds in the same party constellation and it simply comes down to luck how high they can climb.
    Ah, interesting, I didn't think the differences would be that big based on luck alone in FF. Is the pool not that large? I only have WoW as a frame of reference, difference in luck for me right now in TBC means a "low 99" or a "high 99" / rank 1 with a pool size of about 45k parses for my spec.
    ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting View Post
    Ah, interesting, I didn't think the differences would be that big based on luck alone in FF. Is the pool not that large? I only have WoW as a frame of reference, difference in luck for me right now in TBC means a "low 99" or a "high 99" / rank 1 with a pool size of about 45k parses for my spec.
    Probably due to the damage profile raidbuffs every 2 minutes and how crit scaling+direct hits work.

    A SAM in my example getting a few crit+d.hit's more on their namakiris inside the 2 minute buff windows by sheer luck are a few thousand potency on top.

  6. #66
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Video Games View Post
    Yes, it shows those not pulling their weight because you literally cant kill the boss with low dps. But anyway, my static has had p4s on farm so yeah, they stuck around
    I have a friend attempting to do it purely with pugs. His discord is just literally always ff. I think he's like in the raids all day basically wiping.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by FFXIVuseryo View Post
    People then use this data to pick on jobs calling them memes.
    Nobody with any brain cells calls any job in FFXIV a meme, because none of them are.

    If anyone says any job is a meme, ignore them because the dps difference of any job in this game is absolutely miniscule.
    Last edited by Radaney; 2022-04-03 at 01:44 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by FFXIVuseryo View Post
    5-7% is not reasonable to me. I understand where you are coming from. You make 3rd party apps for FFXIV and you run a discord server for them. The idea of reasonable for me is much different than yours.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...extUI-wishlist

    I already mentioned it in my original post that there is much money involved in this and it tends to make people develop certain biases as their interests are engineered around them. FFXIV is just a very hostile platform for outside 3rd party apps and no amount of sugarcoating is going to change that fact to me. Right until the devs are interested in sharing all the information. I am a purist when it comes to sharing of information and what the idea of "reasonable" is. That being said I don't mind what the devs have done I think they had the right intentions. And they already put in stone,sky and sea within the game to check the readiness of DPS.
    Its not 5%, its closer to 2% that for starters. FFXIV is not a hostile platform unless you are dick, its simple as that.
    Ship has been abandoned.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Having raided extremes and savage with a FC during ShB, parsing is usually unnecessary. This game is very easy when it comes to your rotation. 95% of the time you don't fail a boss because people weren't pushing their buttons in the perfect order. It is almost always because someone stood in an AoE or something and that wiped the raid. In FFXIV, everyone has to execute every mechanic perfectly for 8 minutes straight, and only then do you win. Not very fun IMO. FFXIV is more punishing than WoW in that regard, because while in WoW your individual DPS is critical because of how tightly tuned the fight is, the raid doesn't wipe if you screw up a mechanic or two.
    Well, depends on the mechanic. Tank failing bomb pull on Xy’mox, anyone having a star to thru an add on Anduin, people calling wrong targets on Lords of Dread, not killing the star on Rygelon, not blocking orbs on Halondrus, not spreading out enough on Pantheon, not handling rings correctly on Dausegne. These are just a few on the current raid on mythic difficulty.
    There’s plenty of wipes that can happen from failing mechanics in WoW.
    That said, I don’t want to start a WoW vs FF debate as they are both fun in their own right.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Parsing is a actually great. It all depends on the people who use it and how.

    If the bosses are tightly tuned, it's of great importance to see what's working better and where you can improve, which is true for WoW, no idea about FF.
    For some people, the artificial competition is also nice to try and push themselves every clear to do better and score higher.

    The bad part about is the people who bash others that don't have great parses and/or people that cause wipes for the very purpose of higher parses
    This is basically how I feel. Having been a raid leader in WoW I actually thoroughly enjoyed parsing logs trying to figure out how we could figure out the puzzle of mythic raiding. WarcraftLogs is so in-depth and granular that you can really fine tune things from singular GCDs to snipping bad habits. I do agree the people who obsess over orange parses (pink in FFXIV) are not good, especially since in WoW an orange parse might require degenerate gameplay. I've found you can kill every mythic boss in a Cutting Edge timeframe with purple parses from top to bottom, and a smattering of high blue parses as well. Maybe even less, as long as everyone just does their job.

    I've been playing FFXIV since December, so I'm not deep into raiding yet, but it's frustrating not knowing "how I'm doing" as a monk, and what I need to improve. Like, I've read all about monk rotations and optimal drift, but my experience as a mythic raider suggests to me "optimal drift" might just be impractical in a high-end setting and not something that's relevant to savage/ultimate clearing. So far, my partyfinder experience has not been great because it seems like people constantly dying is a problem and they don't get kicked, ever.

    I don't think kicking people for poor performance is toxicity. I also do think the idea that it's my obligation to help people play better is...pretty asinine, at least in a raiding context. I remember I was leveling a tank class, and got a random 34 Titan dungeon in dutyfinder, and the healer literally stood in the first avalanche (?...theline AOE from boss) every time, got knocked off the platform, and died. We offered tips like "move as soon as you see the graphic" and someone even explained how telegraphs work in FFXIV because the player was sprout and it was his first time, but we still wiped 15 times, all because the sprout died, that very first AOE, and I couldn't self-sustain (like I said, it was level 34) to victory. At what point does my obligation end? Shouldn't I have a right to say, "sorry, you're not cut out for this" and then either kick, or leave myself? It's a little bit more tricky because Titan is a MSQ dungeon, and this sprout will NEED to do this fight, but it's a 3 minute dungeon and I'm supposed to be there for 30 minutes and hope he somehow doesn't die?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    ACTUALLYYYY... It is. Especially when you phrase it that way. You're not removing a "hindrance", you're removing a human being. The non-toxic thing to do would be to try and help them. Kicking someone as soon as theyre problematic is toxic, regardless of however you try and justify it. Even if the rest of the group has agreed that if they were problematic, they'd get removed too, it only means the entire group is toxic. People have glorified these groups for so long that there's really people that don't understand this.

    Obviously if you've tried to help someone, and they're not getting it, then you can say "hey man we gotta sit you out, we're gettin stuck here and we need more out of you than what you're capable of." But it's easier to use the "We don't have the time" card than to be a decent person and trying to help, or explaining why they need to be removed.
    Are you actually serious?

    If 7 out of 8 people take 10 pulls to understand a mechanic and person 8 takes 30 pulls it's not at all toxic to remove them. You're literally wasting dozens of hours for 7 people because one person is terrible at the game and can't understand the mechanic.

    Honestly, my SO is in one of these statics that's being held back by one or two people and I get to hear the frustration in her voice about them not getting their P3S reclear because one person's garbage. I don't think it's toxic at all to want to play with a group that's on your level. I think it's what everyone wants. The main reason I refuse to raid in FFXIV as opposed to WoW is that I don't want to go back to playing with the dregs players who would take someone with no logs or experience (to be clear, I think this is perfectly acceptable; I wouldn't expect them to take me). It just sounds annoying to me.

    I'm perfectly happy being the one to explain to someone why they need to be removed. One of the most toxic things to me that I've ever experienced in video games is this "toxic casual" mentality that exists in FFXIV. The patients are quite literally running the asylum is how it feels to me. YOU'RE toxic if you call someone out of being garbage damage but they're not at all toxic for not being willing to put the bare minimum of time into learning their class and rotation and how to play. I'll literally never understand this.

    In short: You're wrong and you're biased by the fact that the FFXIV casual community is so huge that it has normalized the wasting of other people's time so that they don't have to put in a bare minimum of time outside the game to learn how the game works.

  12. #72
    I hate to say it, but this is one thing that I really do prefer in XIV over WoW.

    Your identity in WoW has basically become a credit score system. Everything about you just gets summed up by these IO numbers and whatever else the community decides to judge you on, and that's all you are. Credit score not high enough? No groups for you. Don't like it? Buy a Experian boost!

    At least in XIV I can just reasonably join a group for most any content and just get in and do it, within reason. Sometimes it's a failure, sometimes it's not, and that's really no different than in WoW. But at least you're allowed in without already being twice as geared and experienced as the content actually requires.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilnez View Post
    One of the most toxic things to me that I've ever experienced in video games is this "toxic casual" mentality that exists in FFXIV. The patients are quite literally running the asylum is how it feels to me. YOU'RE toxic if you call someone out of being garbage damage but they're not at all toxic for not being willing to put the bare minimum of time into learning their class and rotation and how to play. I'll literally never understand this.
    I think this probably happens more in DF/PF than organizing groups through Discord - AFAIK there are Savage/Ultimate recruiting servers for each of the different data centers for learning parties, reclears, parses etc... I have heard of people being kicked and/or blacklisted in those circles for being an all around detriment.

    To me, the most frustrating thing is the larger issue of differences in expectation. Having a group comprised of members whose goals differ between "we'll clear if/when we clear" and "clear by X week" are irreconcilable. In my experience, splits like that go all the way on down to how much prep outside of raid time people are willing to commit (if necessary), and how much they prioritize attendance. The friction may not happen right away depending on how easy the content is, but eventually it shows up, and the group is griefing itself to not address that and instead pretend it's not happening.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    ACTUALLYYYY... It is. Especially when you phrase it that way. You're not removing a "hindrance", you're removing a human being. The non-toxic thing to do would be to try and help them. Kicking someone as soon as theyre problematic is toxic, regardless of however you try and justify it. Even if the rest of the group has agreed that if they were problematic, they'd get removed too, it only means the entire group is toxic. People have glorified these groups for so long that there's really people that don't understand this.

    Obviously if you've tried to help someone, and they're not getting it, then you can say "hey man we gotta sit you out, we're gettin stuck here and we need more out of you than what you're capable of." But it's easier to use the "We don't have the time" card than to be a decent person and trying to help, or explaining why they need to be removed.
    A human being can and often is, a straight up hindrance whether it is in real life, work, sports, video games or any online interaction; so that doesn't make the other poster wrong.

    "Problematic" can be SO many different things. Is problematic the first time someone makes a mistake? That's how your post comes off, but that's not the situation here. Is it when 7 of the 8 players have mastered the phase and one player keeps going "teehee sowwy uwu ^_^" after wiping the party for the last 3 pulls? What about 8? What about 15? Where's the line for you? Why is it 7 other people's job now to spend their time helping a player who isn't putting in equivalent effort (research, output, etc.). If by some miracle they truly are doing their best and still failing and need more practice the prudent thing to do would be to drop group and go find a learning party for that mechanic. That's being a decent person; anything less than this from the person is THEM being toxic to 7 people IMO.

    I'm a very accomplished raider in this game and I've left groups because I wasn't pulling my weight, it could have been I was tired and sloppy or I genuinely couldn't figure out the optimal solution to a mechanic. I always offer to leave (if it's mechanic oriented), or thank the party for their time and wish them luck in their endeavors (if I'm done). Sometimes I've had them ask me to stay since they're disbanding in like 20 mins and the extra practice won't kill them; sometimes I've had them thank me for leaving, and others saying no big deal man get some rest and we'll see ya around soon!

    No toxicity when you own your mistakes and take responsibility.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2022-04-05 at 01:19 PM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I hate to say it, but this is one thing that I really do prefer in XIV over WoW.

    Your identity in WoW has basically become a credit score system. Everything about you just gets summed up by these IO numbers and whatever else the community decides to judge you on, and that's all you are. Credit score not high enough? No groups for you. Don't like it? Buy a Experian boost!

    At least in XIV I can just reasonably join a group for most any content and just get in and do it, within reason. Sometimes it's a failure, sometimes it's not, and that's really no different than in WoW. But at least you're allowed in without already being twice as geared and experienced as the content actually requires.

    People get kicked out of teams for having gray parses. It is doubly sad when you realize that the parses are not even factual and the dps checks are so easy that you can beat bosses with most of the team being in gray. You also get jobs without buffs sidelined because everyone wants buffs to pad their parses. Buffs are given misleading RDPS values because their crit and dhit are assumed to be static rather than random. Try pugging cutting edge content you will see what I am referring to. People who hid their parses were also banned from joining teams.



    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Its not 5%, its closer to 2% that for starters. FFXIV is not a hostile platform unless you are dick, its simple as that.
    You are wrong about it being less than 5%. I disagree over there. You are also forgetting RDPS which is largely fictional yet it's on the main page and is the main rating. RDPS is laughable because for years no one took it seriously and then it got pushed to the forefront out of no where. Just APP developers misleading people to make money like usual. It is just sad because it is hurting the game we all love to play. Here is Yoshi's response to 3rd party apps. In short he is very much against them. You can't call a game non-hostile to apps when the developer actively tells people not to use them and threatens them with bans. And I see nothing wrong with that because quite frankly it doesn't bother me.

    Last edited by FFXIVuseryo; 2022-04-06 at 12:37 PM.

  16. #76
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Parsing in any game is really fucking cringe and you should stop doing it.
    Quite the opposite. It is competitve and fun. It doesn´t imply toxicism, that goes with the environment.

    I find it far more toxic having to carry people who do not care, just because you can´t point them out so they actually start putting an effort, or get out of the way.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by FFXIVuseryo View Post
    You are wrong about it being less than 5%. I disagree over there. You are also forgetting RDPS which is largely fictional yet it's on the main page and is the main rating. RDPS is laughable because for years no one took it seriously and then it got pushed to the forefront out of no where. Just APP developers misleading people to make money like usual. It is just sad because it is hurting the game we all love to play. Here is Yoshi's response to 3rd party apps. In short he is very much against them. You can't call a game non-hostile to apps when the developer actively tells people not to use them and threatens them with bans. And I see nothing wrong with that because quite frankly it doesn't bother me.
    ...How do ACT creators make money by me using their application for free?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Quite the opposite. It is competitve and fun. It doesn´t imply toxicism, that goes with the environment.

    I find it far more toxic having to carry people who do not care, just because you can´t point them out so they actually start putting an effort, or get out of the way.
    Competition is good. But in MMORPG you just get an overflow of people who have really low self esteem and they actively look for ways to put others down. They just play the game so that they can feel better about themselves. MMOs are not even that competitive, they just demand alot in terms of time and practice. There is a reason why MMORPG are the farthest thing from esports. Your average top FPS player has way better skill and probably much higher IQ because MMOs are just muscle memory with very few reactionary stuff.

    People decide to put in effort into something like that, and then they refuse to let anyone else enjoy the game unless they too must put in that much time. But if everyone gets good and is equal then people also get angry because now their time has not rewarded them with superiority. So they call the game too easy and move unto another game lol. With the extra time being completely meaningless because why does a faster kill matter if it's just a kill? parsing for the sake of parsing honestly feels pointless to me. Even more pointless when you realize that the numbers are fictional because the devs hid all the data. The true winner in an mmorpg is not the player man. The true winner is the app developers and community leaders who make a ton of money selling these snake oils.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    ...How do ACT creators make money by me using their application for free?
    wowlogs donated 15K to ukraine. How do you think they got that money? it's advertisement and donations.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by FFXIVuseryo View Post

    wowlogs donated 15K to ukraine. How do you think they got that money? it's advertisement and donations.
    Donations are voluntary. Advertisement? Where? Not in my ACT for sure. Anyone can have ads on a website regardless of its purpose.

    So they donated for a good cause and you use this as an argument just because you dislike parsing?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Donations are voluntary. Advertisement? Where? Not in my ACT for sure. Anyone can have ads on a website regardless of its purpose.

    So they donated for a good cause and you use this as an argument just because you dislike parsing?
    I don't dislike parsing. I measure people's performance using details! addon in wow all the time. I love that addon. But that addon is accurate. WoW shares data with apps. FFXIV parsing and raid dps is imaginative. FFFXIV hides some of it's data from apps. I explained all this in my original post. Do I bully and harass people over that stuff? of course not. I am sure people do and that's not nice, but i am more concerned with accuracy of parsers than their effect on the community.

    Yes, free upload websites can and do make money. They would not be as big and successful as they are without money. I don't know how much money they make from donations, discords, services and sales. But in general they do well for themselves. They existed before the ukraine conflict.
    Last edited by FFXIVuseryo; 2022-04-06 at 01:09 PM.

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