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  1. #1

    Aggro pets and ranged job fantasy

    I believe that developers are missing out on huge opportunity in MMO's in general by not allowing all ranged specializations to possess an aggro pet. To fully indulge on ranged class fantasy you need to be fighting in range so that your ranged spell effects (especially those with travel time) could be always visible for you.

    Now this might not be the case inside instance content, but it would still be one handicap less if all ranged jobs would be able to have an aggro pet. In my gaming experiance it's very unnatural for a ranged class to play in melee range. I can just play melee job instead.

    Now, this is not an attack on anyone, so don't feel a need to fight me on it, it's just an opinion on possibly making game more fun.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Range do have an Aggro Pet.

    It's called their Chocobo.

  3. #3
    Interesting, I don't remember Chocobo being sufficiently capable to maintain regular aggro whatsoever, so the healing stance followed after without ever looking back on tank stance. This would be quite big if they can achieve sufficient and constant aggro without actually loosing it.

    Thanks for your insight.

  4. #4
    My chocobo has full tank talents (because as a monk I wanted to practice positionals) and that dude can't keep (or even gain) aggro off me, ever.

    Now, there's some foods you can train it with to gain enmity better, and I haven't done that, so maybe that's what you need to do on top of tank talents.

  5. #5
    Do many spellcaster ranged classes in MMOs have aggro pets in this manner? The only examples I can think of are old Summoner w/ Titan in FFXIV, and Warlock w/ Voidwalker in WoW.

  6. #6
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    No idea why a beastmaster job hasn't been added yet. It's such an obvious class fantasy and there are numerous creature designs in FFXIV waiting to be used. I want my Pugil pet. Lemme flight alongside my floating gatormouth fish.



    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Range do have an Aggro Pet.

    It's called their Chocobo.
    Chocobos have extremely limited usefulness. They can only be used in overworld content, aka once every 2 years when a new expansion drops and brings new zones to quest through. They instantly die on hunt trains and cannot be used in instances. You also have scant control over your Chocobo. You can't even order it to hold position at a designated location like you can with your pets in WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by becq View Post
    Do many spellcaster ranged classes in MMOs have aggro pets in this manner? The only examples I can think of are old Summoner w/ Titan in FFXIV, and Warlock w/ Voidwalker in WoW.
    Necromancer and Ritualist in Guild Wars 1 had pets that could draw aggro. Necromancer in GW2 also has pets that can draw aggro. The Summoner in Lego Universe also had a pet that could draw aggro.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    In my gaming experiance it's very unnatural for a ranged class to play in melee range. I can just play melee job instead.
    Some ranged classes can get around this by having various tools to keep their enemies at range, without using a pet. Ie, laying down traps that freeze or cripple the enemy's movement speed for a time, or knockbacks like a shotgun blast. And there is kiting, ofcourse. I feel like giving every ranged job a pet would dilute the uniqueness of having pets, but every ranged job should have ways of keeping distance between them and their target. Sadly CC is practically nonexistent/useless in FFXIV.

  7. #7
    Thank you friends for your insights.

    As a consumer playing ranged class I always enjoyed keeping my distance from an enemy so that I can fully indulge on a ranged class fantasy. Not missing out on any of those glorious ranged spell effects is also another level of entertainment.

    I guess it's probably more of a personal preference, since it doesn't really affect players at large scale. I like the idea of having a good utility skills to deny any gap closure.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    No idea why a beastmaster job hasn't been added yet.
    the reason why it has not been added as a job is because in the backend of xiv the game is not built to accommodate the class. they tried with summoners but there were many issues with just the few pets they were allowed to use. maybe with the coming overhaul to the graphics they'll be able to start fleshing out the pet system but I think the company is planning on moving away from xiv and onto new ventures. so they just might save all the real pet jobs for the next ff mmo title which may or may not be coming depending on sale figures

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    Thank you friends for your insights.

    As a consumer playing ranged class I always enjoyed keeping my distance from an enemy so that I can fully indulge on a ranged class fantasy. Not missing out on any of those glorious ranged spell effects is also another level of entertainment.

    I guess it's probably more of a personal preference, since it doesn't really affect players at large scale. I like the idea of having a good utility skills to deny any gap closure.
    Just out of curiosity, which ranged class? Because in Overworld content when you're alone you'll most likely be handling mutliple mobs and therefore doing your ae rotation. For DNC and MCH this more or less requires to be close up to the enemy..

    So in theory it must be brd, blm or smn? (because thinking about it as a rdm i need to be close up and personal too)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    I believe that developers are missing out on huge opportunity in MMO's in general by not allowing all ranged specializations to possess an aggro pet. To fully indulge on ranged class fantasy you need to be fighting in range so that your ranged spell effects (especially those with travel time) could be always visible for you.

    Now this might not be the case inside instance content, but it would still be one handicap less if all ranged jobs would be able to have an aggro pet. In my gaming experiance it's very unnatural for a ranged class to play in melee range. I can just play melee job instead.

    Now, this is not an attack on anyone, so don't feel a need to fight me on it, it's just an opinion on possibly making game more fun.
    Honestly, as much as I love pet based classes, giving EVERYONE a pet would be kinda boring. And I'm kinda surprised there's anything in the game that would out and out kill you as a RDPS that wasn't designed for more group content or big pulls. Just basic mobs should die fairly easy without you moving THAT much or flat out just kitting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Range do have an Aggro Pet.

    It's called their Chocobo.
    This, though I don't recall Chocobo's being all that good in keeping the threat on them from my character. Then again, I've not stuffed any onions into it's mouth to get it the rest of it's skills, so that might be part of the failing on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by becq View Post
    Do many spellcaster ranged classes in MMOs have aggro pets in this manner? The only examples I can think of are old Summoner w/ Titan in FFXIV, and Warlock w/ Voidwalker in WoW.
    Depends on the MMO, really. I wasn't around for the old Summoner in 14, so I don't know how effective its Pet was. While WoW does indeed have Warlock, there are others that can have pets that are spell caster based. Ice Mages have gained a Perma Water Elemental over the years that, while it doesn't tank, it's CC often makes it useful enough to not hurt you that much before anything out in the overworld is dead. And while you had to talent into it and the actual usefulness was always in question, Moonkin Druids could summon trees for short durations that could do some damage/tank for you.

    I also know that Guild Wars 2 has their Necromancer which is pet based, but I don't know how much the pets actually tank for you. From what little I played when if first came out, not even the Hunter Pets tanked that much, but that could simple be the design of the game more being focused on Dodging and being active vs just sitting there.

    Overall, it's kinda a common trope for some of the magey classes to have some kind of wall between themselves and the massive monster wanting to drink their spinal fluid, but it's not something EVERY mage class is going to have nor is it really a required fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by znushu View Post
    the reason why it has not been added as a job is because in the backend of xiv the game is not built to accommodate the class. they tried with summoners but there were many issues with just the few pets they were allowed to use. maybe with the coming overhaul to the graphics they'll be able to start fleshing out the pet system but I think the company is planning on moving away from xiv and onto new ventures. so they just might save all the real pet jobs for the next ff mmo title which may or may not be coming depending on sale figures
    First off, responding to this not because it was the perfect answer to Val's point about pet classes (It is), but to respond to several points made here.

    To Start, there's not 'Graphical Overall', at least not in the way you're making it out to be. It's more a change in their engine in how they're lighting things, the textures, and several character models are going to be upgraded in the upcoming years. They're keeping what they had before, just putting more of an effort into it to make it extra shiny and new, especially for the content that's been around since ARR.

    Next up, I'd like to know what exactly makes you think that Square is 'moving away' from FF14 and onto next ventures. Not only is the game making Square money hand over fist right now, not only has the creators behind the game specifically stated they've got plans and ideas for the next Ten years of this game at least, but there's also the fact that by the numbers some people have run? There are more people joining, coming back and staying subbed to 14 right now than in any other point in the games HISTORY, part of which is because the game has years of content that are still there for people to go through that isn't just ignored the moment the new shiny expansion launches.

    And here's the thing about sale figures: A big developer like Square is going to also be looking at the COST of making something. Especially after 14's history and their own troubled issue with Final Fantasy as a franchise with the some of the other titles receptions (13 isn't all that well loved, and while 15 seems to have revived some aspects, it's not considered on equal footing with the other games either), the idea of them doing ANOTHER MMO seems more like a waste of time, money and resources, especially since that's not only going to cut into the profits of their two MMOS they've got already, but also the fact that MMO's live and die by their content, and they can't bank on the slow burn of another 14.

    If you're going to make points about something, make them realistic. Considering the fact that Square has nearly HALF the Dev team from 14 (Yoshi-P, Soken, Koji Fox to name the immediate ones coming to mind) working on FF16, there by showing the trust and desire to work with these creators? I wouldn't be surprised if 14 sticks around far beyond the 10 year plan that they've got.

  11. #11
    I might be aiming high, but having more choice is always better than having none at all. Which in this case if you are forced to soak melee completely you can just go and play melee class and enjoy that instead. And since FFXIV is so generously rewards you with a proper spell fantasy why not adding extra choice of keeping that outside of instanced content. Not everyone is interested in kite gymnastics, aggro pet with a good fantasy behind could offer something new and exciting entirely in overworld content.

    This reminds me of Mist of Pandaria Survival Hunter, where you could MD your pet for days without any fear. Farming those end game barrens mobs 10-20 at the time was highlight of fun for casual dad/mom players, but it lasted as long as one crook detected it and decided put a 30 sec cooldown on it.

    Keep fucking innovating without any fear would be my advice.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    I might be aiming high, but having more choice is always better than having none at all. Which in this case if you are forced to soak melee completely you can just go and play melee class and enjoy that instead. And since FFXIV is so generously rewards you with a proper spell fantasy why not adding extra choice of keeping that outside of instanced content. Not everyone is interested in kite gymnastics, aggro pet with a good fantasy behind could offer something new and exciting entirely in overworld content.

    This reminds me of Mist of Pandaria Survival Hunter, where you could MD your pet for days without any fear. Farming those end game barrens mobs 10-20 at the time was highlight of fun for casual dad/mom players, but it lasted as long as one crook detected it and decided put a 30 sec cooldown on it.

    Keep fucking innovating without any fear would be my advice.
    I mean, that's a lot of lofty talk to basically just say that games should make what you personally like.

    Summoner tanking stuff with Titan used to be fun, sure. But Square seems like they're pretty much against the idea overall now, so that's where we are.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    I might be aiming high, but having more choice is always better than having none at all. Which in this case if you are forced to soak melee completely you can just go and play melee class and enjoy that instead. And since FFXIV is so generously rewards you with a proper spell fantasy why not adding extra choice of keeping that outside of instanced content. Not everyone is interested in kite gymnastics, aggro pet with a good fantasy behind could offer something new and exciting entirely in overworld content.

    This reminds me of Mist of Pandaria Survival Hunter, where you could MD your pet for days without any fear. Farming those end game barrens mobs 10-20 at the time was highlight of fun for casual dad/mom players, but it lasted as long as one crook detected it and decided put a 30 sec cooldown on it.

    Keep fucking innovating without any fear would be my advice.
    I mean, yes, I don't disagree that they should keep innovating and trying new ideas, but in this particular case of what you're bringing up, that was very clearly a bug that wasn't intended in WoW. I remember abusing it clearly myself back in the day. There's a difference between having something that you enjoy because it was intended and enjoy because it was a bug that gave you more power than the devs wanted.

    Overall, though, I never felt that Summoner was the right kind of class for being the 'Pet' class for 14 anyway. Summons were never the 'bring something to the field and have it fight for you' in ANY FF game outside of Final Fantasy X. They were always in, out, and gone. The current Summoner is the closest we've ever had to that feel.

    This isn't to say I wouldn't want them to do a proper pet class, but it'll likely be hard (If not impossible) to do without a lot of work because of XiV's background coding.

    If there's any class type I'm kinda worried about right now it's the dot class type that Bard is kinda holding down. The move from Shadowbringers to Endwalker removed a LOT of the bonuses and benefits for having your dots up on the target. It makes me think they'll remove it entirely, which is a sad thing because we got no real class in the game that's all about loading up the enemy with debuffs like that. I'm hoping eventually we'll either move back to that or a future class would be all about playing with damage over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    I mean, that's a lot of lofty talk to basically just say that games should make what you personally like.

    Summoner tanking stuff with Titan used to be fun, sure. But Square seems like they're pretty much against the idea overall now, so that's where we are.
    To be fair, the 14 devs are usually open and willing to listen to feed back and have even been known to revert changes when it comes to some of the things they've done in the past. Doubtful for Summoner here because most of the feedback outside of a few outlyers have been almost entirely positive.

    That said, there's nothing that Square and the others have ever said about not putting in another pet based class outside of what we know about their backend systems not necessarily being designed for it. They've over come stuff like this before (We're getting those additional 400 items for the glamour dresser, for example) so it's not an impossibility, just something that might be out of reach at the exact moment.

  14. #14
    Disagree, but I won't fight you on it. The concept isn't new in video games nor it's any game breaking in that matter. Including also previously removed glyph/feature in other game that allowed hunter to have unlimited aggro and thus giving you a proper ranger class feeling in outlined scenario.

    Who knows what the future holds.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    Disagree, but I won't fight you on it. The concept isn't new in video games nor it's any game breaking in that matter. Including also previously removed glyph/feature in other game that allowed hunter to have unlimited aggro and thus giving you a proper ranger class feeling in outlined scenario.

    Who knows what the future holds.
    Here's the thing, though. Just because something works in one game doesn't mean it's going to work in another game. Having a pet there that takes all the damage for me in a fight is one thing for a MMO like WoW is, but it would be insane to have something like that in, say, Binding of Issac because the game's are structurally different. While there isn't as huge a difference here between WoW and 14, the idea is the same here in the fact that just because something works in one game doesn't mean it'll work in another.

    Even in WoW, hunter pets are notoriously finicky and not necessarily the easiest to control at the best of times, so what do you expect for a game like 14 where the entire point of 80% of the damage that enemies throw out is something you can dodge? You either need to take away the pets ability to be damaged (thus negating the point of having it tank because then there's a huge power imbalance for other classes), you have it sit right next to your character at all times (Could work, but removes the point of it being on a RANGED classes), or you do something like how the current classes do things where the pet only pops up part of the time (Machineist and Summoner.)

    Now this isn't to say that 14 couldn't designed a pet class that has the pet actually tank for you and have it be balanced, but I can see it being a very difficult thing to design without it being way out of scale, which is probably one reason when they mentioned Beast Master before, they were going to do it as a Limited Job like Blue Mage and let it just run wild in older content.

    You're not wrong about what the future holds. But we could have a good idea as to what it might bring simply because of what we know about the past and the group that we're talking about.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    Here's the thing, though. Just because something works in one game doesn't mean it's going to work in another game. Having a pet there that takes all the damage for me in a fight is one thing for a MMO like WoW is, but it would be insane to have something like that in, say, Binding of Issac because the game's are structurally different. While there isn't as huge a difference here between WoW and 14, the idea is the same here in the fact that just because something works in one game doesn't mean it'll work in another.

    Even in WoW, hunter pets are notoriously finicky and not necessarily the easiest to control at the best of times, so what do you expect for a game like 14 where the entire point of 80% of the damage that enemies throw out is something you can dodge? You either need to take away the pets ability to be damaged (thus negating the point of having it tank because then there's a huge power imbalance for other classes), you have it sit right next to your character at all times (Could work, but removes the point of it being on a RANGED classes), or you do something like how the current classes do things where the pet only pops up part of the time (Machineist and Summoner.)

    Now this isn't to say that 14 couldn't designed a pet class that has the pet actually tank for you and have it be balanced, but I can see it being a very difficult thing to design without it being way out of scale, which is probably one reason when they mentioned Beast Master before, they were going to do it as a Limited Job like Blue Mage and let it just run wild in older content.

    You're not wrong about what the future holds. But we could have a good idea as to what it might bring simply because of what we know about the past and the group that we're talking about.
    Not sure if you remember, but when FFXIV first launched Summoner was a literal pet class, just like Hunter in WoW. FFXIV changed over time to focus less and less on the pets, to the point in Shadowbringers where they became untargetable (which killed the whole pet job feeling completely) and then basically taken away completely in the latest revamp with Endwalker.

    The FFXIV has opted to move AWAY from pet jobs after having tried to do it right, and have decided they either can't do it right, or are choosing to not spend the time necessary to do so.

  17. #17
    Summoner has been in an odd situation for the longest time, and their entire entire kit before the rework was at odds with the overall combat design philosophy - especially the reduction of dots/making them contribute less to overall damage. Even when it relied more heavily on egi's, titan wasn't doing any real tanking unless you were throttling your DPS. The way that the pet abilities interacted with your rotation and the delay from issuing the command to actually performing them was extremely jarring.

    Speaking of class fantasy, regardless of whatever people may think of the rotation, summoner is a lot more aligned with how it has been represented in the series in most other previous entries.

    All that said, I would like to see beastmaster to show up as a limited job. I've never really been a fan of blue mage in any iteration of final fantasy, this one included, but depending on how the introduce it and give it challenges (hopefully akin to what BLU has to do for the morbol mount) count me in.
    Last edited by The Casualty; 2022-08-03 at 07:41 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Not sure if you remember, but when FFXIV first launched Summoner was a literal pet class, just like Hunter in WoW. FFXIV changed over time to focus less and less on the pets, to the point in Shadowbringers where they became untargetable (which killed the whole pet job feeling completely) and then basically taken away completely in the latest revamp with Endwalker.

    The FFXIV has opted to move AWAY from pet jobs after having tried to do it right, and have decided they either can't do it right, or are choosing to not spend the time necessary to do so.
    I wasn't around during the original 14 days. I only came into 14 with Shadowbringers and the only reason I had even joined it was because I had escaped WoW's clutches when Blizzard F'ed over Blitzchung.

    But in this particular instance, especially if we're talking about 1.0, then the problem here isn't the fact that they've moved away from the pet class, more the fact that they're moving closer to the Fantasy of the Summoner that Final Fantasy has had since day one. Like, in this particular instance, what is the major highlight and class identity of the Dragoon? You ask this and most people are going to say it's Jump Skill. Now imagine what would it be like to have the Dragoon class in the game... without the Jump skill... it wouldn't really be the Dragoon, now would it?

    That's kinda the feeling I've been getting with their work on Summoner over the years. It's more about course correcting to fufill the fantasy of summoning a big F-U primal to the battle field and make it work within the set up of the game, especially since there's a grand total of one instance where the summons were actually sitting there and taking the beating (Hi, Yuna). I could see them, especially with their experience now, being able to do a proper pet based class should they want to work in their system to do it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    I wasn't around during the original 14 days. I only came into 14 with Shadowbringers and the only reason I had even joined it was because I had escaped WoW's clutches when Blizzard F'ed over Blitzchung.

    But in this particular instance, especially if we're talking about 1.0, then the problem here isn't the fact that they've moved away from the pet class, more the fact that they're moving closer to the Fantasy of the Summoner that Final Fantasy has had since day one. Like, in this particular instance, what is the major highlight and class identity of the Dragoon? You ask this and most people are going to say it's Jump Skill. Now imagine what would it be like to have the Dragoon class in the game... without the Jump skill... it wouldn't really be the Dragoon, now would it?

    That's kinda the feeling I've been getting with their work on Summoner over the years. It's more about course correcting to fufill the fantasy of summoning a big F-U primal to the battle field and make it work within the set up of the game, especially since there's a grand total of one instance where the summons were actually sitting there and taking the beating (Hi, Yuna). I could see them, especially with their experience now, being able to do a proper pet based class should they want to work in their system to do it.
    I'm not disagreeing with the idea that they're course correcting, but their choice to do so by moving AWAY from the pet aspect and focus solely on the Summoner themselves speaks volumes.

    As you've already said, there's more than one iteration of Summoner in the Final Fantasy Universe. Yes, in most, the Summon does exactly what it does currently in FFXIV, it pops in does it's attack and leaves. In others, it takes to the battlefield and becomes a part of the battle with special attacks, FFXI is another instance where this happens. Even if it was just FFX with Yuna where the Summons took to the field, that means there's still a precedent for it in the Final Fantasy universe.

    The FFXIV teams choice to move away from the pets, says to me, that more than correcting the class fantasy they just don't want to do pets, because there were alternative ways to lean more into a class fantasy that included actual pets.

    I personally would have preferred them trying to stick to the actual pet class aspects, because I love pet classes and that's why I chose to play a Summoner in the first place, but I do still enjoy the current iteration of the class.

  20. #20
    I think the problem is the dumb as rock AI in both MMOs. Chocobo, command mission group and the trust AI are all barely working and probably ignore 50% damage taken just to be playable. In WoW the pet AI goes totally haywire if there is place where player can jump to but not walk to. Also if the pets dont have 90% aoe dmg reduction BM hunters would be ressing their pets after every aoe. Micromanaging a pet is a chore that i dont miss.

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