Are Light and Void still considered the main forces?

[darkoms]

In the Grimoire of the Shadowlands, the Broker mentions that a random mortal scientist showed him his cosmological map, and this made the Broker laugh because the main forces there were Light and Void. That is, the map from the Chronicles was not even made by the Titans themselves, this is just the opinion of a random mortal scientist. But at the same time, Firim mentions that at the very beginning there were only 2 forces. Can we still be sure it's Light and Void?

[Progenitor Aquarius]

In Shadowlands main forces are life and death, that’s the Broker’s perspective because he lives in Shadowlands, I guess.

[Varodoc]

Yes.

The Void is the most powerful force in existence and the Void Lords are a threat so existentially massive that even the mighty Sargeras was terrified at the mere thought of them invading reality.

Like Sargeras, Zovaal the Jailer was also terrified of the idea of the Void Lords invading, and tried to unite the Cosmos against them.

Zovaal's fear were proven right, we see this in Shadowlands, in a flashback, where it's revealed that Bastion almost fell to the Void armies. If Bastion fell, the Kyrian covenant would have come to an end and souls would no longer flow to the Shadowlands, which means that all of Death would have succumbed to the Void. Proving Zovaal's fears right.

So both Sargeras and Zovaal sought to take over the Cosmos and prepare it for the Void Lords; Sargeras by destroying all World Souls, Zovaal by enslaving all other forces. It is also not a coincidence that both of them eventually tried to take control of Azeroth's World Soul, which is exceptionally strong, to the point that the Pantheon thought she would be able to challenge the Void Lords eventually. It is all connected.

But in the end they failed, and so the Void Lords will come. When they do, I suspect that the Void elves, mortals who have turned the power of the Enemy against them for the first time (this is unprecedented), will play a pivotal role.

The tenth expansion will be the expansion about the ultimate showdown between Light and Void that will serve as the final conclusion of the Cosmic chapter of the Warcraft saga. Because really, if the Void Lords are banished permanently or, dare I say, destroyed, there's no other reason to do anything else outside of Azeroth.

[Zerref]

Yes.

The tenth expansion will be the expansion about the ultimate showdown between Light and Void that will serve as the final conclusion of the Cosmic chapter of the Warcraft saga. Because really, if the Void Lords are banished permanently or, dare I say, destroyed, there's no other reason to do anything else outside of Azeroth.

This is going to be a terrestrial expansion, the dev announcement said that because of shadowlands reception we aren't dealing with the Cosmic this time around.

[Varodoc]

This is going to be a terrestrial expansion, the dev announcement said that because of shadowlands reception we aren't dealing with the Cosmic this time around.

Good thing that Dragonflight is not the tenth expansion then.

[darkoms]

Yes.

The Void is the most powerful force in existence and the Void Lords are a threat so existentially massive that even the mighty Sargeras was terrified at the mere thought of them invading reality.

Like Sargeras, Zovaal the Jailer was also terrified of the idea of the Void Lords invading, and tried to unite the Cosmos against them.

Zovaal's fear were proven right, we see this in Shadowlands, in a flashback, where it's revealed that Bastion almost fell to the Void armies. If Bastion fell, the Kyrian covenant would have come to an end and souls would no longer flow to the Shadowlands, which means that all of Death would have succumbed to the Void. Proving Zovaal's fears right.

So both Sargeras and Zovaal sought to take over the Cosmos and prepare it for the Void Lords; Sargeras by destroying all World Souls, Zovaal by enslaving all other forces. It is also not a coincidence that both of them eventually tried to take control of Azeroth's World Soul, which is exceptionally strong, to the point that the Pantheon thought she would be able to challenge the Void Lords eventually. It is all connected.

But in the end they failed, and so the Void Lords will come. When they do, I suspect that the Void elves, mortals who have turned the power of the Enemy against them for the first time (this is unprecedented), will play a pivotal role.

The tenth expansion will be the expansion about the ultimate showdown between Light and Void that will serve as the final conclusion of the Cosmic chapter of the Warcraft saga. Because really, if the Void Lords are banished permanently or, dare I say, destroyed, there's no other reason to do anything else outside of Azeroth.

I hardly saw the British Bulldog on this forum, but thank God we have you as a source of endless fun, although you jerking off Alleria and Void, not Arthas and Death.



Sargeras was afraid of the Void Titan and only because the Nathrezim told him a horror story at night and as we know, the Nathrezim lied to everyone so that Death would win.


We have no idea who the Jailer was referring to, but apparently it's something beyond 6 powers, given that he wanted to subdue other Zerets as well.



Not to mention that Denathrius sent Nathrezim to the Void Lords to deceive them, so it's not bad that Denathrius or the Jailer is terrified of them.

[Varodoc]

I hardly saw the British Bulldog on this forum, but thank God we have you as a source of endless fun, although you jerking off Alleria and Void, not Arthas and Death.



Sargeras was afraid of the Void Titan and only because the Nathrezim told him a horror story at night and as we know, the Nathrezim lied to everyone so that Death would win.


We have no idea who the Jailer was referring to, but apparently it's something beyond 6 powers, given that he wanted to subdue other Zerets as well.



Not to mention that Denathrius sent Nathrezim to the Void Lords to deceive them, so it's not bad that Denathrius or the Jailer is terrified of them.

Why do you even ask questions if you're just going to argue with whoever gives you the answer?

[Lupinemancer]

In the Grimoire of the Shadowlands, the Broker mentions that a random mortal scientist showed him his cosmological map, and this made the Broker laugh because the main forces there were Light and Void. That is, the map from the Chronicles was not even made by the Titans themselves, this is just the opinion of a random mortal scientist. But at the same time, Firim mentions that at the very beginning there were only 2 forces. Can we still be sure it's Light and Void?

I think it's a matter of each Cosmic Force believing their version is the true one.
But yes, I still think Light and Void are the Main Forces.

[darkoms]

Why do you even ask questions if you're just going to argue with whoever gives you the answer?

Because you did not come to give an answer, you came to tell us again about the greatness of Void and Void Elves, as you do in EVERY topic. I would rather choose no answer than an answer in which I read what I have seen 100 times in other topics

[Aucald]

Given the recent revelations in Shadowlands with the First Ones, the nature of the metacosm's construction, and the reveal that there are greater powers and forces beyond the six primordial essences of Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, and Disorder I would be inclined to say "no."

[Varodoc]

Because you did not come to give an answer, you came to tell us again about the greatness of Void and Void Elves, as you do in EVERY topic. I would rather choose no answer than an answer in which I read what I have seen 100 times in other topics

I came to tell you about the greatness of the Void because the Void, Yes indeed, is literally one of the two Main Forces of the Cosmos.

Does that not qualify as "greatness", to be literally one of the two main forces of a given cosmos?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[darkoms]

I came to tell you about the greatness of the Void because the Void, Yes indeed, is literally one of the two Main Forces of the Cosmos.

Does that not qualify as "greatness", to be literally one of the two main forces of a given cosmos?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, instead of justifying your point of view and saying how it relates to the current lore, you came and said that Sargeras and the Jailer were afraid of the Void Lords, and then again began to praise the Void Elves

[Varodoc]

No, instead of justifying your point of view and saying how it relates to the current lore, you came and said that Sargeras and the Jailer were afraid of the Void Lords, and then again began to praise the Void Elves

> Says that I didn't justify my point of view and how it relates to the current lore

> I literally cite an example from Shadowlands, the current expansion, to prove my point

[darkoms]

> Says that I didn't justify my point of view and how it relates to the current lore

> I literally cite an example from Shadowlands, the current expansion, to prove my point

Do you have proof that the Jailer said about the Void? Judging by the comic about the Sisters, it is they who are afraid of him.

[Varodoc]

Do you have proof that the Jailer said about the Void? Judging by the comic about the Sisters, it is they who are afraid of him.

Considering how the Void launched a full-scale invasion of Bastion in the past, No, I'd say they are not scared of the Jailer. Since Bastion was led by an Eternal One like the Jailer.

As I said above and you completely ignored, there is a side questline in Bastion retelling of the massive Void inavsion of Bastion. That invasion was started by the Void Lords in their attempt to conquer Shadowlands and shift the balance of power in their favour. The invasion was averted only thanks to the sacrifice of Agthia. At the end of the questline, it is explicitly stated:

Keeper Mnemis says: Existence maintains order thanks to her noble sacrifice. We maintain the site of this battle in her memory, and so that we may learn from her courage for eternity.

So I am right and it is Canonically stated that, if the Void army won in Bastion, then the order of Existence would have been disrupted. Which is, you know, precisely what the Jailer feared.

The Jailer feared an existential threat that could disrupt and shatter the Cosmos. We are told from the Bastion storyline that, if the Void won at Bastion, the order of Existence would have been lost. Hmmm... I wonder who the Jailer could have been referring to, then? Is there a force out there that, if successful, can completely and utterly shatter Cosmic order? Is there a force that seeks to devour all of Existence?

The Void Lords were not afraid of Death. They were trying to convince Alleria to go crazy and kill her sister, but Alleria's willpower is strong and she resisted the whispers of the Void Gods. The Void Lords are completely insane and unhinged and so of course they'd want to turn family members against one another, it doesn't mean they're afraid of the Jailer, when they had no problem launching invasions of the Shadowlands in the past.

In fact, for all we know, they launched that invasion of Bastion back when the Jailer was still the Arbiter. That side questline of Bastion is the ultimate confirmation that the Void was never scared of Death. Even N'Zoth, a mere creation of the Void Lords, was trying to prepare Azeroth for the coming of the Jailer.

[voidox]

I came to tell you about the greatness of the Void because the Void, Yes indeed, is literally one of the two Main Forces of the Cosmos

except it isn't, cause of Danuser retcons and how there is now the super special secret 7th force and the First Ones who apparently created the light/void itself :/

so ya, the void is now just another cosmic force, though basically the main evil one of the current known cosmic forces... though even with that, we know Danuser will also be wanting to make sure the void is going to be morally grey, cause all cosmic forces need to be morally grey in some way

heck, with the way Blizzard love to keep upping the enemies each expansion, we're probably going to be fighting a freaking void lord in a raid or something dumb like that, cause now it's going to be all about the secret 7th force and the inevitable First One who went evil.

[Kyphael]

Not likely. There's always a bigger fish and as long as the IP remains profitable, they'll keep infinitely ballooning their lore to fill future expansions with new content.

[Tecuani]

Like Sargeras, Zovaal the Jailer was also terrified of the idea of the Void Lords invading, and tried to unite the Cosmos against them.

We have no idea who Zovaal was talking about. The Light also struck Revendreth and there are STILL remnants of that war that drives Venthyr insane in the Ember Ward.

Considering how the Void launched a full-scale invasion of Bastion in the past, No, I'd say they are not scared of the Jailer. Since Bastion was led by an Eternal One like the Jailer.

Two thoughts here. One - If this was a full-scale invasion, it must be pretty devastating to the Void that Bastion did not need any of the other forces of Death to defeat them. Two - Where were the Necrolords in this? Their job is do defend the Shadowlands from outside attacks, but here they did nothing. This is more just a thought I had and less related to your arguments.

The Void Lords were not afraid of Death. They were trying to convince Alleria to go crazy and kill her sister, but Alleria's willpower is strong and she resisted the whispers of the Void Gods. The Void Lords are completely insane and unhinged and so of course they'd want to turn family members against one another, it doesn't mean they're afraid of the Jailer, when they had no problem launching invasions of the Shadowlands in the past.

More speculation. We don't know if the Void Lords simply wanted to turn family against family, or if they respected or outright feared the threat the Jailer (And his puppet) posed to their plans. The fact that they failed and haven't tried to invade the lands of death - when said lands weren't even protected by their allies who are supposed to defend them - is probably a big hit to their plans.

[Eosia]

except it isn't, cause of Danuser retcons and how there is now the super special secret 7th force and the First Ones who apparently created the light/void itself :/

Where does it state that? The leading speculation is the 7th force is created by the intersection of the other 6. There are, at least, five other Zeriths (Light, Shadow, Life, Order, and Disorder)

so ya, the void is now just another cosmic force that Danuser will also be making sure is morally grey, cause all cosmic forces need to be morally grey in some way

And your proof of this is what? Keep in mind all of our information on the Void comes from Chronicles which we know was written from the perspective of the Titans. They, Sargeras in particular, were afraid of the Void. So to them, and by extension us, the Void and the Void Lords would appear to be the ultimate enemy. The problem with that particular paradigm is that at some point we have to confront the Void Lords and destroy them. Now we know that such a thing might really be a bad idea.

And we already know that Shadow, and the Void, are "morally gray". Ever played a Priest? What kind of evil, destructive things do Shadow Priests do in the story? Did they aide C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and N'zoth rather than defeat them? Is Alleria truly evil now as well as all of the Void Elves?

Oh, and adding higher layers isn't "retcon". It's adding new information. A retcon would be that we never really killed Nefarian in Blackwing Lair or Onyxia in hers, the just fled and ended up hiding in Blackwing Descent. Having the Twlight's Hammer cult retrieve his body and use the Void to resurrect him wasn't a retcon. Hell, Xanesh tried to do it again.

[Athorha]

And we already know that Shadow, and the Void, are "morally gray". Ever played a Priest? What kind of evil, destructive things do Shadow Priests do in the story? Did they aide C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and N'zoth rather than defeat them? Is Alleria truly evil now as well as all of the Void Elves?

Benedictus is a decent example of how a character can use a duality in the story to manipulate other characters into believing his will. I can't remember if the draenei from wod ever resort to void magic. Or if they stick to holy / convert to fel. I think in auchindoun they just use holy against the player character and yrel. That wouldn't be a morally grey act imo since they're just pointing the same gun at a new enemy.


I think the sha would love the brokers.