Tune WotLK up, a lot

[varren]

Sunwell is the testing ground. If all the dad guilds crash and burn and it becomes a only the top 10-15% of guilds bother sticking around.. I would expect WotLK to get absolutely nothing to make it harder.

We already saw it with T5. Pre nerf SSC/TK absolutely decimated dad guilds. It was like Naxx40 but with no world buffs to brute force the content.

I think Wrath will be fine as is. T7 and T9 can be your easy tiers (T7 even has sarth 3d which will be difficult for casuals). Those tiers can be made shorter in favor of longer Ulduar/ICC phases if needed.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

We already saw it with T5. Pre nerf SSC/TK absolutely decimated dad guilds. It was like Naxx40 but with no world buffs to brute force the content.

I think Wrath will be fine as is. T7 and T9 can be your easy tiers (T7 even has sarth 3d which will be difficult for casuals). Those tiers can be made shorter in favor of longer Ulduar/ICC phases if needed.

Plus ICC eventually has the % buff thing. So everyone gets a lich king kill more or less.

[Aurabolt]

Most Wrath Dungeon and Raid Encounters are Faceroll/Sleep Mode, yes but that's not fast. You'd know that if soloed any of 'em in recent years on Retail. Mechanics make almost all Wrath boss encounters last at least 5 to 10 minutes though there are some outliers like Flame Leviathan (Ulduar).

Also: Algalon The Destroyer says hi =P

[Segus1992]

Most Wrath Dungeon and Raid Encounters are Faceroll/Sleep Mode, yes but that's not fast. You'd know that if soloed any of 'em in recent years on Retail. Mechanics make almost all Wrath boss encounters last at least 5 to 10 minutes though there are some outliers like Flame Leviathan (Ulduar).

Also: Algalon The Destroyer says hi =P

Algalon really wasn't that hard, basically reaching him was harder, at least 25-man (mimiron).

[crusadernero]

snip

I know you are banned, but just wanted to say that I played all of WotLK. As I started playing in the early days of vanilla. I raided in all of the xpacs. WotLK was by far the most accessible one, when it comes to doing relevant content and get relevant gear. Today you do LFR on retail and get useless gear. Its not really "accessible" and not even worth talking about.

You could easily form a guild/raid team and do 10 or 25. The gear that dropped were relevant. You cleared the content everyone else cleared, you got the gear everyone else got.

The exception was a few HM features, but overall most gear was relevant and cool to get. The titles & mounts coming from especially hard earned achivs is besides the point and got nothing to do with it. We cleared relevant content and new players that were coming in could easily be geared up and ready to raid.

The titles & mounts? Side activity you could go for if you wanted, but they didnt matter to your characters progress(better gear = stronger). The titles & mounts that were hard to get wasnt something you were required to do, at all.

But maybe you wanted those rewards back then but never got them and now 10 years later you are still mad about it.

[Ham on Rye]

Really? Thankful? I know a lot of people who will quit now, waiting for WotLK classic, who are dadgamers like me, who don't appriciate challenge and wipes. I will NEVER set foot in that raid, as I really feel too old to deal with progress runs and wipes.

Just the feeling I have overall, people are dropping off, and I don't think Sunwell will be appriciated by many.

So quit. Like anyone cares. Sunwell obviously isn't the raid for you. Maybe Wrath Naxx will be more your speed.

[deenman]

Wrath is gonna be hilarious, even easier than Vanilla. You don't even need to be max level to beat the first tier of raids, and you will be soloing heroic dungeons by 3.2 with most dps classes.

wrath was pretty easy but easier than vanila?lol cmon,wrath had some encounters way above vanila and tbc bosses,also wasnt the pre max lvl zone in raids removed by wrath?and the soloing of heroic dungeons didnt become a thing until mop when the scaling every tier started to become expansion level scaling lol

[Tiev]

While the aesthetic in some cases could have been and should be improved. The level of customization un retail Is a huge leap from classic. That's why a toggle ( you can choose what you see) would work wonders.

I'd go beyond that and say that there should have been toggles for sound changes as well.

[Biomega]

Also: Algalon The Destroyer says hi =P

Algalon is a joke, and always was. The only thing that stood in the way was a) unlocking him and b) the limited attempts. The fight is incredibly simplistic. With meta knowledge, most people will steamroll it instantly.

Really only Firefighter and Yogg+0 are going to be any challenge whatsoever, because they require actual coordination. And even them are probably going to get blown up by modern-day knowledge and player skill.

[ifrah]

Algalon was indeed not much to write home about by the time you finally reached there. All those old "he feeds on your tears" and "algalon the guild destroyer" are as thin air as it gets. The 1hr timer kept him on life support for a while though.
Firefighter prior to the nerfs was supposedly tight one, however didn't manage to do kill it before those nerfs hit, so I'm unable to comment on this. Other hardmodes did not hold medium to hc guilds too long. Yogg0 was largely ignored as irrelevant/"mathematically impossible"/not worth the effort as the only bonus loot was the mount (and the cool realm first title) for quite some time until Stars almost ninjakilled it from the raiding community perspective at least. Subsequent kills followed quite soon.

Stuff that slowed down Ulduar progress from many mid to not so mid tier guilds. It took quite a long time to clear the raid. Those filler encounters sunk a lot of time that chewed off precious raiding hours. This in mind, there were guilds that decided just not to care about the hard modes for quite some time, as cashing out the easy epics were more return on time invested.

Going back to yogg0, back then it kind of introduced new mechanics that don't seem too complicated on today's standards. Compared to the 1-version, your extra chores were: have 3 (or was it 2?) players targeting and taunting off the marked mobs, and then people slapping the adds in a controlled manner without going 100% apeshit on their AoE buttons. I mean, back then, yea, it took some time to nail things.

And last of all, people know every single encounter inside out. There's infinite videos and guides to anything and everything.

[Vakna]

wrath was pretty easy but easier than vanila?lol cmon,wrath had some encounters way above vanila and tbc bosses,also wasnt the pre max lvl zone in raids removed by wrath?and the soloing of heroic dungeons didnt become a thing until mop when the scaling every tier started to become expansion level scaling lol

Yeah I was a bit overzealous for sure, No Lights Yog, and 25H LK were extremely hard in the day and great fights in that xpac, not sure how they will live up now though. As for the soloing part, I was actually soloing heroic dungeons as my mage back then, so it was totally possible. Also, not sure if you are meming or not, but the ilvl change between tiers in Wrath and MoP was only about 3-4 ilvl diff, and there was no borrowed power difference between either of them, so the scaling was basically the same. Even now the changes between tiers are less than it was back then, it's just the borrowed power stuff that gives massive boosts.

- - - Updated - - -

Most Wrath Dungeon and Raid Encounters are Faceroll/Sleep Mode, yes but that's not fast. You'd know that if soloed any of 'em in recent years on Retail. Mechanics make almost all Wrath boss encounters last at least 5 to 10 minutes though there are some outliers like Flame Leviathan (Ulduar).

Also: Algalon The Destroyer says hi =P

Algalon was a meme, the hardest part of that fight was getting there and hoping your donkey raid members don't waste a try with something dumb.

[Battlebeard]

So quit. Like anyone cares. Sunwell obviously isn't the raid for you. Maybe Wrath Naxx will be more your speed.

I'm not saying people care if I quit, but this is a discussion, it's not about individuals per se, but the greater playerbase. I think more people are like me, and it's not healthy for the game if thousands and thousands of people suddenly quit now, is it?

[Lplatehealer]

From my memory 10m HC and 25m HC lasted longer than 1 minute. So I feel like you are talking out your ass and never raided that content

[Loveliest]

Spoken like someone who never played wotlk and are speaking through information given to you by your casual baddies sorry I mean buddies.

Was it accessible? is that why it was so successful?

First kill titles, titles only one guild per server can get.. seems pretty 1% to me?

Black and plague protodrake, required every naxx raid achiev including undying/immortal and was removed when Ulduar came out(5months) - Seems 1%?

Ulduar - Legendary that few casual guilds were able to finish, Hardmodes that few casual guilds ever cleared, Yogg 0 an achievment few hardcore guilds even killed and mimirons head a mount few people still have to this day. - 1%?

TOGC - Immortal achiev and mount, still to this day only 0.06% of the WoW playerbase have this achiev and mount because how hard it was and because it was removed at the end of wotlk. "Reach Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode." If you don't believe me look it up this achievement and mount is almost as rare as the AQ Gate mount. 1%?

ICC -Was gated and Required the raid to release a 5% buff every week for people to be able to clear it, capping at 30 %. 30% wasn't enabled until August and Cata came out in December. Even with a 30% buff no casual guild killed H LK, Invincible still to this day is a rare mount few have. 1%

I don't even mention the multiple rep grinds the expansion had or the yellow proto drake, YOU'RE RIGHT this expansion was CLEARLY accessible to all because it introduced the group finder...... LOL shut up casual, if WOTLK isn't buffed it'll die in a month just like the others cause Blizz listens to your crowd.
The reason WOTLK was the pinnacle height of Blizzards sub count is because it was the only MMO that was heavily focused on both PVE and PVP that was being updated at that point and the only other options were shit, so you can delete your non sense about it being popular because it was casual.

I played then and I remember everyone and their mother was playing too. Had 2 teams that were progressing 10m hc and also did weekly 25m to get ppl gear. Yes, most of them did not kill hc LK, only our 10m hc group did and it was hard. But the rest of it was very accessible. Even just the possibility of going in and doing hc Lootship on 25m for the entire guild made it accessible enough for them to stick around. Most of the guildies quit in Cata when they couldn't get past the first boss (that flame worm) and with the lockout change. Doing 10m progression meant we would not be doing 25m so they would most likely never get better gear and be stuck on progress.
Even pvpers were pugging, because of the trinket from the 4th boss. Accessible does not necessarily mean the end boss, it means the raid as a whole.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Algalon is a joke, and always was. The only thing that stood in the way was a) unlocking him and b) the limited attempts. The fight is incredibly simplistic. With meta knowledge, most people will steamroll it instantly.

Really only Firefighter and Yogg+0 are going to be any challenge whatsoever, because they require actual coordination. And even them are probably going to get blown up by modern-day knowledge and player skill.

Algalon was way harder than Firefighter, at least on buffed private servers. I guess Algalon "scales" more with buffed hp/dmg than Firefighter though, since the hard part about Algalon is keeping your Tanks alive though the absolutely insane dmg he does, while the hard part about Firefighter is the actual mechanics, but those mechanics are pretty easy compared to even a mid level Cata boss, let alone anything that came later.

Algalon is a 5-6min (enragetimer) long CD rotation to keep your Tank alive. The level of planning and setup required by the RL/Officers to simply keep your Tanks alive is 3 levels above anything else in Ulduar except for Yogg 0. On top of this, you will need 2 Holy Paladins constantly spamming desynced Holy Lights on the Tanks from pull to kill, while every other Healer has 100% uptime on their HoTs. And even with all of this, you still WILL have random Tank deaths where you simply get unlucky and your Tank gets oneshot. With buffed numbers, Algalon is probably the 4th hardest boss in WotLK, behind LK, Anub and Yogg0.

It will probably be less punishing in WotLK Classic for obvious reasons, but yeah.

[Biomega]

Algalon was way harder than Firefighter, at least on buffed private servers.

Yeah cool, if you change things, things are different. This and other shocking revelations, tonight at 8.

[Aurabolt]

Algalon really wasn't that hard, basically reaching him was harder, at least 25-man (mimiron).

OMG yeah I hated doing that encounter and more so when trying to solo for the mount later on. So easy to see where/how raids can wipe hard on that one fight to the point people start dropping out like flies.

Algalon is a joke, and always was. The only thing that stood in the way was a) unlocking him and b) the limited attempts. The fight is incredibly simplistic. With meta knowledge, most people will steamroll it instantly.

Really only Firefighter and Yogg+0 are going to be any challenge whatsoever, because they require actual coordination. And even them are probably going to get blown up by modern-day knowledge and player skill.

Yeah, by the time you down Yoggy you're like "Whew...ok I need a drink." Then you find out you have one more encounter. Yogg +0 is a superb test of stamina and coordination. Personally, I reccommend folks clear the raid to Yogg and then save the fight for another day when you're feeling fresher because factoring retries, we're looking at a few hours on just that fight. Lots of fun =)

[sykoex]

Please no. If the raids are hard people will get frustrated and quit.