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  1. #1

    Question If Tyrande never became The Night Warrior... would it have mattered?

    Now that the end of the expansion is here and we see the Tyrande vs. Sylavanas saga end in "renewal", I have to ask:

    How would the story have changed if Tyrande never became The Night Warrior?



    I'm been recalling what would have changed if she never became "Elune's Wrath", and the answer is... not much.


    • There was the Darkshore warfront, but after running several of those I don't recall Tyrande playing a part in the Night Elves canonically winning.
    • There was the infamous questline where we first saw THE UNBRIDLED MIGHT of the Night Warrior unleashed upon a human archer... and fail to kill him. So if Normal Tyrande just showed up and shot a few arrows, the effect would be the same. The only tangible effect was one dead Valkyrie, so the "heroes" would later face 10 of them in Sanctum of Domination instead of nine.
    • She ran headfirst into The Maw before anyone else did, but I'm doing the Night Fae campaign questline now to see what she got up to. Turns out all she did was kill a bunch of Torghast trash. She didn't even rescue any lost Teldrassil souls; we did that. After catching up to her, Shandris explained how we had the soul crystal and could scoop them up, which we did three at a time thanks to a weekly quest from Yserra. But we would've done that anyway, and now Sylvanas is doing that, so no change there.
    • When Sylvanas lead an assault on Ardenweald to get the sigil, Tyrande did NOT take her down, and Anduin walked in while none of us were looking and snagged it. So Normal Tyrande wouldn't have changed anything there either.
    • Elune popped after to chat with The Winter Queen and forge a new sigil during Tyrande's depowering, but that didn't require the ritual. Elune could have dropped by any time.
    • And now the post-Jailer defeat epilogue is here, and Tyrande tells Sylvanas to jump in the Maw and start doing Soul Retrival yearly quests. Normal Tyrande could still do that.




    So... what did the Night Warrior do to effect the Shadowlands plot?

    Aside from landing the killing on Nathanos. But frankly, Azeroth's murderhobos probably could've done that, too.

    So if Tyrande just stayed normal but pissed off, and the entire Night Warrior plotline was scrapped from BfA, would it have mattered?


  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    The Night Warrior storyline was utterly wasted like so much of the story. It had zero effect on the outcome (except maybe to give Night Elves the customisation option!).

  3. #3
    I'd actually probably argue the story would have been better if the night warrior wasn't a thing. Just have Tyrande go on the war path of her own accord, and not need some special power influencing her. She's already the high priestess of elune or whatever, she should be able to do some pretty crazy elune stuff as is. She was already an angry moon warrior, this made her an angrier mooner warriorer.

    This would give her more agency and make the stakes feel more real than "But what if the power destroys her!". Especially since the writers love talking about vengeance bad so much, why not show the actual downsides of blind vengeance rather than some super sayan power up.

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I'd actually probably argue the story would have been better if the night warrior wasn't a thing. Just have Tyrande go on the war path of her own accord, and not need some special power influencing her. She's already the high priestess of elune or whatever, she should be able to do some pretty crazy elune stuff as is. She was already an angry moon warrior, this made her an angrier mooner warriorer.

    This would give her more agency and make the stakes feel more real than "But what if the power destroys her!". Especially since the writers love talking about vengeance bad so much, why not show the actual downsides of blind vengeance rather than some super sayan power up.
    I tend to agree with you. There are too many cosmic powers at play, who has the biggest nuke doesn't necessarily make for an interesting story.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    The Night Warrior storyline was utterly wasted like so much of the story. It had zero effect on the outcome (except maybe to give Night Elves the customisation option!).
    Customization option was literally the only thing that came out of it. To OP's point, you can remove the Night Warrior entirely from the story which also removes Elune's involvement, and replace her decision of renewal over vengeance in a completely new context and it plays out the same.

    Wasted potential again, LIKE ALL THE REST!

  6. #6
    It didn't matter but I feel like there was some sort of Drust/Thros raid that ended up being scrapped, among so many other things in Shadowlands. And I feel the Ardenweald/Night Warrior/Tyrande story would've been explained more. I've heard a rumor the Night Warrior powers actually came from the Drust and not Elune. So IDK, there's definitely a lot that's missing from this expansion and this is just one of those things imo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I'd actually probably argue the story would have been better if the night warrior wasn't a thing. Just have Tyrande go on the war path of her own accord, and not need some special power influencing her. She's already the high priestess of elune or whatever, she should be able to do some pretty crazy elune stuff as is. She was already an angry moon warrior, this made her an angrier mooner warriorer.

    This would give her more agency and make the stakes feel more real than "But what if the power destroys her!". Especially since the writers love talking about vengeance bad so much, why not show the actual downsides of blind vengeance rather than some super sayan power up.
    Given how it actually played out, I agree. And I would have muched preferred not to see her skyrocket DBZ style after Sylvanas during their first encounter and maybe show her skill as Priestess of the Moon (you know her whole fucking origin from WC3) and shoot her down with a well placed shot.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Now that the end of the expansion is here and we see the Tyrande vs. Sylavanas saga end in "renewal", I have to ask:

    How would the story have changed if Tyrande never became The Night Warrior?



    I'm been recalling what would have changed if she never became "Elune's Wrath", and the answer is... not much.


    • There was the Darkshore warfront, but after running several of those I don't recall Tyrande playing a part in the Night Elves canonically winning.
    • There was the infamous questline where we first saw THE UNBRIDLED MIGHT of the Night Warrior unleashed upon a human archer... and fail to kill him. So if Normal Tyrande just showed up and shot a few arrows, the effect would be the same. The only tangible effect was one dead Valkyrie, so the "heroes" would later face 10 of them in Sanctum of Domination instead of nine.
    • She ran headfirst into The Maw before anyone else did, but I'm doing the Night Fae campaign questline now to see what she got up to. Turns out all she did was kill a bunch of Torghast trash. She didn't even rescue any lost Teldrassil souls; we did that. After catching up to her, Shandris explained how we had the soul crystal and could scoop them up, which we did three at a time thanks to a weekly quest from Yserra. But we would've done that anyway, and now Sylvanas is doing that, so no change there.
    • When Sylvanas lead an assault on Ardenweald to get the sigil, Tyrande did NOT take her down, and Anduin walked in while none of us were looking and snagged it. So Normal Tyrande wouldn't have changed anything there either.
    • Elune popped after to chat with The Winter Queen and forge a new sigil during Tyrande's depowering, but that didn't require the ritual. Elune could have dropped by any time.
    • And now the post-Jailer defeat epilogue is here, and Tyrande tells Sylvanas to jump in the Maw and start doing Soul Retrival yearly quests. Normal Tyrande could still do that.




    So... what did the Night Warrior do to effect the Shadowlands plot?

    Aside from landing the killing on Nathanos. But frankly, Azeroth's murderhobos probably could've done that, too.

    So if Tyrande just stayed normal but pissed off, and the entire Night Warrior plotline was scrapped from BfA, would it have mattered?

    If the Night Warrior had never happened then it’s more than likely the NEs, many of them including Tyrande, would have turned their backs on Elune.
    Elune prevented Tyrande from killing Sylvanas in Ardenweald. If she hadn’t, events wouldn’t have played out the same.
    Tyrande might not have been able to kill Nathanos, which would have kept a new seed of doubt being placed in Sylvanas. The Jailer not protecting him, and then withholding it from Sylvanas while also having his soul in the Maw, was another huge part of Sylvanas doubting him and his honesty.
    Elune was not welcome in the Winter Queen’s forest, as shown by her attitude when she found out Tyrande was being used as Elune’s vessel. If Tyrande hadn’t become the Night Warrior then the year wouldn’t have been formed, the Winter Queen wouldn’t have had a spark of forgiveness towards her sister Elune, and Elune would have had no idea what was happening in the Shadowlands or the NE souls.

  8. #8
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    It gave some vibes of Indiana jones, like, even if he wasn't in the movie with the ark, it would turn out exactly the same, the Nazi's would have still found the ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died.

    And tbf some things in wow all give this kind of vibe, that is utterly pointless or would have happened the same without some dumb thing they throw in the mix

  9. #9
    I agree, Tyrande storyline was one of the most interesting they had going. Could have been so much more, writers wiffed on Tyrande.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    It's amazing how talented the writers are
    I've never seen someone set so much groundwork for no payback whatsoever

    It must be an entirely new genre
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  11. #11
    Yes, it would have mattered. The Nigh Warrior "thing" goes beyond Tyrande and the Night Elves. As you progress through the Night Fae campaign, you learn that the Night Elves on Azeroth are not the only beings who revere Elune. For example, Thiernax became the Night Warrior on Fyzandi after an Old God landed on the planet. He even shared the power with his husband, Qadarin. Together they vanquished said Old God and subsequently died. This sets the stage for Elune to be something much bigger than she was prior... a simple deity that the Night Elves worship. This is further enhanced with the revelation that Elune and the Winter Queen are "sisters".

    It also set the stage for Tyrande to make a decision. Does she keep the power for herself and get her revenge on Sylvanas, or does she give it up to the Winter Queen to forge a new Sigil of Ardenweald? Does she choose vengeance and death, or renewal and life?

    The problem with the story really, and Blizzard really needs to work on this, is that the pacing of it is way too slow and choppy. This is nothing new as we saw it in Legion with the Stormheim story arc on the Horde side. Sylvanas and Genn duke it out in front of Eyir, whom Sylvanas had bound with the lantern that Helya had given her in their bargain. But we never really find out what that bargain was, what Sylvanas was really doing in Stormheim other than superficially looking for a source of Valkyr to keep raising undead to renew the Foresaken's numbers. And what did she do after? There's not a single peep about her after that. So apparently she just went backed to Grommash Hold in Orgimmar and played Sudoku until Azerite was discovered. There was no hint of her contact with Zovaal until the Mok'gora with Saurfang when she used powers she picked up from The Maw to kill him.

    Of course Blizzard then relies on transmedia narratives, the books mainly, to fill in these gaps. But often times it is too little, too late by then as it does nothing to quell the frustration with these abrupt breaks in the story. And I am not talking about arcs that cross over from x.y or x.y.z patches like we saw in the progression of the MoP story line but rather ones that are left open and then when subsequent patches are released, there's no pickup.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Yes, it would have mattered. The Nigh Warrior "thing" goes beyond Tyrande and the Night Elves. As you progress through the Night Fae campaign, you learn that the Night Elves on Azeroth are not the only beings who revere Elune. For example, Thiernax became the Night Warrior on Fyzandi after an Old God landed on the planet. He even shared the power with his husband, Qadarin. Together they vanquished said Old God and subsequently died. This sets the stage for Elune to be something much bigger than she was prior... a simple deity that the Night Elves worship. This is further enhanced with the revelation that Elune and the Winter Queen are "sisters".

    It also set the stage for Tyrande to make a decision. Does she keep the power for herself and get her revenge on Sylvanas, or does she give it up to the Winter Queen to forge a new Sigil of Ardenweald? Does she choose vengeance and death, or renewal and life?

    The problem with the story really, and Blizzard really needs to work on this, is that the pacing of it is way too slow and choppy. This is nothing new as we saw it in Legion with the Stormheim story arc on the Horde side. Sylvanas and Genn duke it out in front of Eyir, whom Sylvanas had bound with the lantern that Helya had given her in their bargain. But we never really find out what that bargain was, what Sylvanas was really doing in Stormheim other than superficially looking for a source of Valkyr to keep raising undead to renew the Foresaken's numbers. And what did she do after? There's not a single peep about her after that. So apparently she just went backed to Grommash Hold in Orgimmar and played Sudoku until Azerite was discovered. There was no hint of her contact with Zovaal until the Mok'gora with Saurfang when she used powers she picked up from The Maw to kill him.

    Of course Blizzard then relies on transmedia narratives, the books mainly, to fill in these gaps. But often times it is too little, too late by then as it does nothing to quell the frustration with these abrupt breaks in the story. And I am not talking about arcs that cross over from x.y or x.y.z patches like we saw in the progression of the MoP story line but rather ones that are left open and then when subsequent patches are released, there's no pickup.
    Except, their bungled attempt at story telling stripped all the agency from Tyrande. She had made a decision and pursued vengeance. Before she invoked the NW, she knew it would likely destroy her and such was her lust for revenge that was the road she took. That would have worked fine without the power up -they could still have had Elune intervene. Tyrande was a pretty powerful entity on her own.

    They made Elune look a fool '-oh I doomed my favourite children to eternal torture because I CBA to figure out why my sister was having problems.'

    Blizzard are sloppy with their writing, they need an external editor to look at their story instead of all sitting round in their 'dojo' with no negativity. Some decent critique (had they listened to it) would have done wonders for the product they shipped. I've read the leaks regarding cut content and if they are to be believed, that would have been a far more coherent story.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    It's amazing how talented the writers are
    I've never seen someone set so much groundwork for no payback whatsoever

    It must be an entirely new genre
    IKR? /10char


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    They made Elune look a fool '-oh I doomed my favourite children to eternal torture because I CBA to figure out why my sister was having problems.'
    Because they've been estranged for a massive amount of time? Elune was able to determine that something was wrong in the Shadowlands and, as a result, her sister would need help. So she granted the Night Elves who perished in Tel'drassil a peaceful, painless death knowing that, barring any sins that precluded it, the souls would end up in Ardenweald and help.

    Besides, even if she had asked the Winter Queen, no one knew that the Arbiter was knocked offline by Argus' soul entering the Shadowlands. So the answer she wopuld have gotten back was "There's a drought of Anima and I am having a hard time tending to the souls sent here." The only exceptions were Zovaal and those serving him. Maybe the Ascended Kyrians too but that's not confirmed. All everyone else knew was that there was a drought of Anima, not that souls were being sent directly into the Maw because there was no Arbiter to judge them and send them to wherever.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    As I said since the concept of the "Night Warrior" ritual and transformation were introduced, the whole plot line was incredibly pointless especially when paired with the 10,000 years of Night Elf presence facing even worse stakes on Azeroth and it wasn't even mentioned or invoked once during that time. I mean the Avatar of Vegenance was a pre-existing transformation/power up that could have been utlised both as a story thread to re-introduce the Wardens back into the Night Elf forces after Legion with Tyrande begrudgingly allying with them and assuming the role of commander of an army explicately formed to pursue revenge for Teldrassil while also fitting in appropriately with the next expansion surrounding the dead. Heck they could even introduce a twist and have the army unintentionally flip sides or go rogue while battling in the Maw while also presenting Tyrande her whole consequence of hubris event as she suddenly presented with a situation where she must permanently join them as their commander (i.e. become a spirit and become an Avatar herself) and potentially achieve her revenge or instead return to Ardenweald and seek renewal and communion with Elune in assistance to lay the forces back to rest.

    Instead what we get is Tyrande being clowned, Elune being made out to be foolish, dark eyes for Night Elves and random backstory justification for the Night Warrior being a cosmic concept as well as incredibly useless in being helpful from two gay spirit animals.
    Riveting.
    Last edited by Darknessvamp; 2022-04-08 at 04:07 PM.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    • There was the infamous questline where we first saw THE UNBRIDLED MIGHT of the Night Warrior unleashed upon a human archer... and fail to kill him. So if Normal Tyrande just showed up and shot a few arrows, the effect would be the same. The only tangible effect was one dead Valkyrie, so the "heroes" would later face 10 of them in Sanctum of Domination instead of nine.
    There were only nine Val'kyr. The one we killed was in the fight as one of the spectral dead that got summoned to do abilities. Were she not killed, there would have been four living Val'kyr in the fight instead of three.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    It gave some vibes of Indiana jones, like, even if he wasn't in the movie with the ark, it would turn out exactly the same, the Nazi's would have still found the ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died.

    And tbf some things in wow all give this kind of vibe, that is utterly pointless or would have happened the same without some dumb thing they throw in the mix
    Except the Nazi's would've had the original disc with both sides instead of only a one-sided disc built from a burn impression on a guy's hand. The other side warns not to look at the ark, so the Nazi's wouldn't have died. This info, sadly, is only available in special features because they removed the line from the final cut of the movie.

  17. #17
    Yeah. We would have not gotten speshul eyes customization. Thx Tyronedude.

  18. #18
    To me, the 4chan leak of Nightwarrior sourcing from Thros would have made things way more interesting than being 'Elune's Warrior state'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #19
    Yeah... well it's about nightelves. I don't really expect anything for them in the next expansion either.

    You know... because Tyrande is ok now that means all of the nightelves are also good again. The fact, that they are basically homeless right now will never be adressed. Same for undead.
    The whole storyline was stupid as hell with a culmination when both of them became meteors "fighting" in the sky.
    Anime-Level Storytelling and twists here. Only thing missing was a 30 second scene of elune *gasping*

    Tyrande did not really accomplish anything with here becoming the nightwarrior. Sylvannas wasn't even really bothered by her. And after she is cured the whole customization option fpr nightelves doesn't make sense anymore. Why are they still darkeyed? Are they going to die now?

    Also her killing Nathanos was also inconsequiencal as they just ignored Nathanos even existing in Shadowlands. WHere is he?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Yeah... well it's about nightelves.
    they are basically homeless right now
    This always annoyed me.

    Teldrasill was already holding refugees; the survivors of Gilneas. But there's nothing in Stormwind that tells me that the city is holding BOTH homeless Night Elf refugees AND Gilnean refugees.

    If you went into NPC houses and saw an uncomfortable Night Elf sitting in the corner of every home, and every shop having a new Night Elf "Helper", it would tell me that Stormwind has a refugee crisis and the population is making efforts to home and offer a new life to survivors of TWO civilizations.... except nothing.

    Barring a few minor outposts, the entire surviving Night Elf population should be in Stormwind right now. I just don't see it.



    Three or four Darnassus/Gilneas NPCs standing around a campfire doesn't say "Stormwind impacted by TWO entire races with no place to put them or keep them busy during the day" to me.

    It's not like Stormwind is Dalaran; flooded with thousands of players lagging it up; Blizzard could add a tonne more NPC to at least make it appear the burning of the World Tree actually meant life changed in the slightest for the Alliance.

    Last edited by thottstation; 2022-04-09 at 04:55 AM.

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