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  1. #21
    Thank you for your semantics. As if some people are conditioned to enjoy being oppressed while continuously asking for more. Further responses from you two will be considered as bait.

  2. #22
    To me, the only reasonable work around is to give more of the core kit early, like they are doing with Stalwart Soul at 42 instead of 70. Lets not call game design that you don't enjoy "being oppressed" though.

    Personally, I don't mind how it is currently, aside from when I levelled BLM last expansion. That was a design flaw from my perspective, as abilities went into and out of use and back again depending on the level. A good set of skills should build on itself, which by in large happens.

    It means that I can queue up as one of the classes I haven't capped yet and have a similar gameplay experience/contribution to other people at that level and don't have to worry if I have enough abilities to keep up. Or if I take my capped classes, I'm not blowing sprouts out of the water and making their presence inconsequential. We all get to be part of a team, and have the tools necessary to do the job. My major gripe about older dungeons is the power creep of potency values making some of the older dungeons a snoozefest, which is a separate issue.

    There are clear reasons why this is not a simple flip of a switch. Could it be done? Sure. I'm just not convinced it would be a net positive on the game for the many reasons listed from previous posters and then some.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    It would be, and should be a standard feature across the themepark MMO genre. Sadly, great features don't seem to become standardized. It has been 5 years since GW2's award winning mount system released - the best iteration of mounts in any game, ever - and still no one else has adopted it.
    The irony of it is that (at least in my opinion) WoW has managed to do XIV's gimmick better than XIV now. You can level up in pretty much any zone, do any dungeons, and it's all relevant all the time if you want.

    XIV had a great concept but never really expanded on it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The irony of it is that (at least in my opinion) WoW has managed to do XIV's gimmick better than XIV now. You can level up in pretty much any zone, do any dungeons, and it's all relevant all the time if you want.

    XIV had a great concept but never really expanded on it.
    You're joking, right?

    Unless they changed things to be completely unrecognizable since I jumped ship from WoW, there's no chance in the Lich King's hell that Deadmines and other old school dungeons are 'Relevant' to end game players.

    Not only that, I just have to shake my head at you if you think stopping your player halfway through, say, Pandaria to ship them off into the current game content because they hit the level where they can do it is the right decision.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    You're joking, right?

    Unless they changed things to be completely unrecognizable since I jumped ship from WoW, there's no chance in the Lich King's hell that Deadmines and other old school dungeons are 'Relevant' to end game players.

    Not only that, I just have to shake my head at you if you think stopping your player halfway through, say, Pandaria to ship them off into the current game content because they hit the level where they can do it is the right decision.
    "You must be joking!!!"

    "I don't actually know what's going on in the game right now."

    Ok.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    "You must be joking!!!"

    "I don't actually know what's going on in the game right now."

    Ok.
    I mean, I'm not willing going to be playing a game that doesn't value my time or with people who are pretty horrid in terms of developing it. But that's not the topic here.

    You said that WoW's made the old dungeons 'Relevant'. I don't believe it at all without proof, considering the fact that not only would it be entirely pointless to make something like Deadmines useful to players who are at max level (Since, why run any of the new Shadowlands content when Deadmines gives you just as good gear?), but there's also the point that Blizzard is really well known for not really going through and modifying things for 'availability' that didn't require them to come kicking and screaming the entire way.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    I mean, I'm not willing going to be playing a game that doesn't value my time or with people who are pretty horrid in terms of developing it. But that's not the topic here.

    You said that WoW's made the old dungeons 'Relevant'. I don't believe it at all without proof
    , considering the fact that not only would it be entirely pointless to make something like Deadmines useful to players who are at max level (Since, why run any of the new Shadowlands content when Deadmines gives you just as good gear?), but there's also the point that Blizzard is really well known for not really going through and modifying things for 'availability' that didn't require them to come kicking and screaming the entire way.
    Come on, at least pay attention to context. He was talking about leveling. You CAN level in just about any zone and do ANY dungeon at any level all the time. While leveling.

    Also your preferences for games is completely irrelevant. You said you had no idea what was going on, and then proceeded to discuss a topic you were ignorant of as if you did.

  8. #28
    Was that the way that games evolved past the Jar Jar binks stage where it was all pre rendered back grounds?

  9. #29
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    This would just mean that players who are low level and don't have access to higher level abilities would be doing significantly less damage than someone at max level with access to all of their skills. It would create a huge divide in that sense. Not to even mention balancing, since every dungeon is balanced and scaled around the abilities you have at that level.

    So no, I see a negative percent chance of this ever happening.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    Thanks gamers for chipping in with your opinions and insights. My point is that developers should at least start doing something rather than nothing, because currently high level player experience in playing low level roulette is truly debilitating.

    While the notion of bonding with new players is a good idea. As a max level character I'm still not convinced to commit to leveling roulette, because I'm not interested in a criple gameplay, it's just as simple as that.

    Any stubborn developer should meet the players at least in a half way, it's a good rule of thumb.
    You're the first person I've seen ask for this. This isn't "Devs should meet the players halfway" this is "Devs should meet me halfway".

    GW2 and FFXIV are two different games. This mechanic works for GW2 since combat is very freeform and there's little balance consideration for lower level scaling. It would require massive rebalancing for SE to do this, and if they didn't rebalance then the lower level dungeons, trials and raids would be facerolls even moreso than they already are.

    Hell, SE recently made the MSQ roulette dungeons sync to level 60 when they used to scale to 135. MSQ roulette was a freaking joke because your player power was just so high. Now that it's been sync'd to level 60, the MSQ dungeons are more like real dungeons than facerolls with some cut scenes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The irony of it is that (at least in my opinion) WoW has managed to do XIV's gimmick better than XIV now. You can level up in pretty much any zone, do any dungeons, and it's all relevant all the time if you want.

    XIV had a great concept but never really expanded on it.
    Frankly because in an RPG there's supposed to be a sense of progression, gaining power. There's supposed to be areas that are just too dangerous for you and when you reach the appropriate power to go there, you feel great. And when that area becomes easy for you, you feel even better. Even GW2 does this. Even with its scaling down, you can't go into certain higher level areas until you reach certain levels. Being able to go literally anywhere with no sense of progression is dumb. Just because scaling is a good thing doesn't mean the entire game should scale.


    One of the biggest issues with old MSQ roulette is that they weren't hard in the least. There was this huge build up to the ultima weapon and then it just... dies. Without any effort. SE fixed that with the MSQ overhaul. All of the MSQ fights now feel more challenging than they once were. You also get wonderful story and spectacle from the Ultima fight since it no longer dies in 30 seconds. You reach phases where you think Ultima weapon is about to wipe you out and you can't do anything about it, and Hydaelyn saves you.

    If we allowed players to go into low level dungeons with their max level skills, all dungeons would be that faceroll easy. Sprouts going through the story for the first time, which is supposed to be something akin to a single player RPG experience, would feel there was no challenge to the dungeons whatsoever if the group just roflstomped the entire thing and they never died.

    Yes, low level dungeons aren't "hard", but new players often die to mechanics they've not seen, and there's not much higher level players can do to prevent that. If players had all of their abilities, it would be far too easy to just roflstomp things.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2022-05-25 at 12:49 AM.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  10. #30
    Judging or criticizing developers doesn't mean that I' don't have full and undivided praise at hand ready once they do manage to deliver quality product. Maybe I was also setting up my personal expectations way too high as it seems that FF14 doesn't fully replace intense craving for e-sport activities that various games managed to entertain me in the past.

    If the player who clocks in 16 non-afk hours a day playing video game each day and every day, you (as developer) might want to consider hearing out different desires these people have. Surplus consumers shouldn't be ignored but considered. Hence the half way.

    This game isn't e-sport ready, so "what I'm asking" cannot be achieved anyway.

  11. #31
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    Judging or criticizing developers doesn't mean that I' don't have full and undivided praise at hand ready once they do manage to deliver quality product. Maybe I was also setting up my personal expectations way too high as it seems that FF14 doesn't fully replace intense craving for e-sport activities that various games managed to entertain me in the past.

    If the player who clocks in 16 non-afk hours a day playing video game each day and every day, you (as developer) might want to consider hearing out different desires these people have. Surplus consumers shouldn't be ignored but considered. Hence the half way.

    This game isn't e-sport ready, so "what I'm asking" cannot be achieved anyway.
    Esports in FFXIV?

    Absolutely not.

    Never.

    Nope.

    I hate what e-sports does to a game and it overall has a huge negative impact. Some might claim it provides more exposure, but it also creates a different ultra competitive environment.

    Go play Crystalline conflict if you want that kind of competition, but I would resent SE for taking this game in the direction of e-sports.

    Also no clue where e-sports thing came from. The GW2 skill system will never be in FFXIV, and no developers should not have to meet a single player's wishes or even come halfway. Maybe if half the player base wanted it, but not one single person.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  12. #32
    It's not a personal wish list friend. It's one of the many things that needs to happen so that when they do happen the things that clicks together is what makes good e-sport game to begin with. I guess this is the end of my clarification on the topic.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    It's not a personal wish list friend. It's one of the many things that needs to happen so that when they do happen the things that clicks together is what makes good e-sport game to begin with. I guess this is the end of my clarification on the topic.
    The last thing that FF14 needs is to fixate on esports mentality and drive out it’s existing player base. We already watched wow make that mistake. You people already ruined wow. Haven’t you done enough damage?

  14. #34
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    It's not a personal wish list friend. It's one of the many things that needs to happen so that when they do happen the things that clicks together is what makes good e-sport game to begin with. I guess this is the end of my clarification on the topic.
    On the contrary, it needs to not happen, because FFXIV should not be an e-sport, as e-sports ruins games.

    But I don't see what having all of your max level skills at level 30 has to do with e-sports. FFXIV is doing extremely well and is extremely popular in both west and east.

    This really does sound like a personal wish list thing, but to justify it you've got it in your head that this is a feature that is necessary or else the game... can't become an e-sport? Which begs the question, why should FFXIV be an e-sport?

    The only thing even remotely close to being e-sports is Crystalline Conflict, the new PvP mode, and that has fuck all to do with having your max level skills at lower levels.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  15. #35
    Could they? Actually, I feel like it wouldn't be a problem in the overworld. The overworld is such a casual environment, and I don't think lowbies are going to care since... BLU can fuck anything up that's in a fate or otherwise. It'd be much more enjoyable doing fates at lower levels if that were the case! But, the effort for the FFXIV team prooobably wouldn't do it.

    It'd be nice if instanced content did that, as it's very possible for them to enforce a DPS cap, and dynamically reduce your damage if you're doing too much - while already reducing potency. However, this, again, is a HUGE amount of work for very little return. A better solution is to just, give everyone their main rotation by level 30 - 40, and add one or two extra goodies at 50 and go from there. IMO, anyways.

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Could they? Actually, I feel like it wouldn't be a problem in the overworld. The overworld is such a casual environment, and I don't think lowbies are going to care since... BLU can fuck anything up that's in a fate or otherwise. It'd be much more enjoyable doing fates at lower levels if that were the case! But, the effort for the FFXIV team prooobably wouldn't do it.

    It'd be nice if instanced content did that, as it's very possible for them to enforce a DPS cap, and dynamically reduce your damage if you're doing too much - while already reducing potency. However, this, again, is a HUGE amount of work for very little return. A better solution is to just, give everyone their main rotation by level 30 - 40, and add one or two extra goodies at 50 and go from there. IMO, anyways.
    The problem is: What is the main rotation?

    1-2-3? for my most played jobs i got them around lvl 20ish - and to be honest it doesn't make it engaging at all. Around lvl 60 the soul gauge comes in, and it becomes a little bit more fun - then 80 is when shroud comes into play and i can start having fun - but honestly its only at 90 with communio and the actual fun gameplay of getting 2 communios into your buff window.

    So for most classes the base rotation wouldnt change a lot (even drg could get 1-5, but without jumps etc.?)

    Another problem which is the first reason i think its a bad idea (though i'd love to have all abilities in lower dungeons): how to handle sprouts? If you don't fix this, be prepared for a lot of sprouts being kicked out of dungeons... (why should i bother with an underequpped tank without abilities, when i can just kick him and wait for a lvl 90 tank with bloodwhetting and invul?)

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The problem is: What is the main rotation?

    1-2-3? for my most played jobs i got them around lvl 20ish - and to be honest it doesn't make it engaging at all. Around lvl 60 the soul gauge comes in, and it becomes a little bit more fun - then 80 is when shroud comes into play and i can start having fun - but honestly its only at 90 with communio and the actual fun gameplay of getting 2 communios into your buff window.

    So for most classes the base rotation wouldnt change a lot (even drg could get 1-5, but without jumps etc.?)

    Another problem which is the first reason i think its a bad idea (though i'd love to have all abilities in lower dungeons): how to handle sprouts? If you don't fix this, be prepared for a lot of sprouts being kicked out of dungeons... (why should i bother with an underequpped tank without abilities, when i can just kick him and wait for a lvl 90 tank with bloodwhetting and invul?)
    The basic rotations, and as you go to 50+ it'll unlock the more advanced buttons and gauges. I do think all (base) gauges should unlock by 50, as it's a huge part of most jobs. The secondary gauges could unlock at say 60, just as an incentive, but varying from job to job I'm sure.

    To be fair, it's not like low level dungeons (Or anything really besides the most recent expansion) are difficult. Get decent gear and spank buttons, you'll end up doing just fine. Of course level-locking cooldowns to avoid that situation wouldn't surprise me, just so someone higher up isn't getting a (much) bigger advantage utility wise without them. Traits and CDs might be the only things you'd end up getting past 50 / 60 with everything pushed further down. I'd rather have that vs it being all over the place, AND having CD's all higher up.

    There are multiple solutions to this problem, and I think the most basic one is going to be approached: Push the base rotations down below 50 (As well as normal gauges), then up in the air about how they tackle traits, CD's and advanced gauges.

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