In Defense of Difficulty

[Zeedojin]

I said my definition of casual is the 50% of the playerbase that stays in solo and queued content. Casual is meaningless if we start including people that do top end M+. You are defining casual in such a way that it is 90% of the playerbase. It's stupid.

For starters, that 90% is based on nothing so lets not jump to conclusions about who plays what.
Secondly, since there is no actual definition of what hardcore and casuals the actual number skewing doesn't matter in the slightest. It could be 99 to 1 and still be accurate to how I perceive it.
Also, what you said was "Doing +15s is not casual", implying there is some form of skill limit to what casual means. Since you genuinely need to have an idea of what you are doing in those key levels and higher, otherwise you you get punished by the mechanics.
If you spend a few hours a week since the beginning of the expansion doing just m+ and gated content to boost your character you could very easily be doing 15's. It all comes down to how good you are. Some are inherently worse at learning than others, but being a good at a game does not make you hardcore.

[Kyriani]

Was there a time in woes history that you were happy with the gearing structure? If so, when?

WOTLK & Cata were where I enjoyed gearing most. I could queue for heroics, farm badges/points with a weekly cap, and eventually buy raid ilvl items from vendors for many (but not all) slots. Heck, I could buy a few pieces of tier in WOTLK! I could also craft raid ilvl gear for a few slots each tier (even if I had to buy the raid drop mats from the AH). No rng BS, deterministic gearing.

Back then I raided as well so my main had more badges/points than my alts, but my alts who I did not raid with (beyond maybe some early ICC on my priest) were still able to gear up via queued content so long as I devoted some time to running heroics. I didn't have to form a group. I didn't have to worry about being gatekept out of groups, I had deterministic rewards that I would be guaranteed to get with time.

Why not just watch a movie or play with toys then?

I can't imagine playing a game I know with certainty that I won before starting. That is just a movie.

Watching a movie isn't the same as being an interactive participant, even if the outcome is assured. But playing a video game is not so different from playing with toys. And as I mentioned above to the other poster, I enjoyed my time gearing in WOTLK and CATA. It wasn't until MoP that I felt things really started going downhill and WoD was a shitshow. Legion was better, but any goodwill earned from legion was burned in BfA and kept smoldering till 9.2 in SL. Zerith Mortis gives me hope that 10.0 won't suck for me.

[Efcharisto]

... I just don't want the game to be gated such that if blizz makes the gear look the best at the highest tier of difficulty, I won't be able to access it till after the content is even relevant.

The people that disagree with that.... are people that I don't think should be catered to. Idc how much you love the idea of catering to niche players. If they don't care about people who would enjoy the game if they were capable of "gitting gud" in time, then frankly they don't deserve to be catered to themselves.

[Imrindar]

If you want a difficult MMO go try Wildstar. Oh wait...

[Biomega]

... I just don't want the game to be gated such that if blizz makes the gear look the best at the highest tier of difficulty, I won't be able to access it till after the content is even relevant.

I get the sentiment, but you must appreciate that "best-looking" is highly subjective. So unless you make NO gear tied to anything difficult, you'll always have someone complaining that there's that one thing they can't get.

But on the principle of the point: what's wrong with giving exceptional rewards for exceptional performance? If you want to have it, too, then you need to perform as well - or wait. What's wrong with that sentiment? Why should everything be available at zero to no effort?

[Efcharisto]

I get the sentiment, but you must appreciate that "best-looking" is highly subjective. So unless you make NO gear tied to anything difficult, you'll always have someone complaining that there's that one thing they can't get.

But on the principle of the point: what's wrong with giving exceptional rewards for exceptional performance? If you want to have it, too, then you need to perform as well - or wait. What's wrong with that sentiment? Why should everything be available at zero to no effort?

It is highly subjective in most senses, however there are instances where, while technically subjective, the consensus by most, including one's self, is that something looks better than what they'll likely be capable of having access to without doing far, FAR more work than most people who get their hands on the shiny gear.

Theoretically, exceptional rewards for exceptional performance is fair. In reality, what constitutes exceptional performance in this context is hardly deserving of rewards that you can flaunt at people and make them feel lesser because you look better.

[Celement]

It is highly subjective in most senses, however there are instances where, while technically subjective, the consensus by most, including one's self, is that something looks better than what they'll likely be capable of having access to without doing far, FAR more work than most people who get their hands on the shiny gear.

Theoretically, exceptional rewards for exceptional performance is fair. In reality, what constitutes exceptional performance in this context is hardly deserving of rewards that you can flaunt at people and make them feel lesser because you look better.

To be fair no armor in game is as detailed as the cash shop armor.

[Nehezbegar]

The raids are too hard and its an objective fact.

Wish we get back to WOTLK times, simpler times ....soon tough

[Biomega]

Theoretically, exceptional rewards for exceptional performance is fair. In reality, what constitutes exceptional performance in this context is hardly deserving of rewards that you can flaunt at people and make them feel lesser because you look better.

I think that might be a you problem. If you feel denigrated because other people are prettier than you, you have some stuff to work out.

The idea that effort=reward is a pretty basic mechanic, and I'm not sure there's a need to usurp that - ESPECIALLY for rewards that have no value other than aesthetics or prestige. All they say is "look, I did well enough to earn this" and somehow you don't want people to say that for no other reason than... you can't do it. That's petty and sad, not gonna lie.

Now, it's a slightly different situation with rewards you can ONLY get from such a challenge - i.e. rewards like the old CM gear that became unobtainable, and so couldn't be acquired in the next expansion at reduced effort. There may be more of an argument against that kind of exclusivity, though really only slightly more so.

[Efcharisto]

I think that might be a you problem. If you feel denigrated because other people are prettier than you, you have some stuff to work out.

The idea that effort=reward is a pretty basic mechanic, and I'm not sure there's a need to usurp that - ESPECIALLY for rewards that have no value other than aesthetics or prestige. All they say is "look, I did well enough to earn this" and somehow you don't want people to say that for no other reason than... you can't do it. That's petty and sad, not gonna lie.

Now, it's a slightly different situation with rewards you can ONLY get from such a challenge - i.e. rewards like the old CM gear that became unobtainable, and so couldn't be acquired in the next expansion at reduced effort. There may be more of an argument against that kind of exclusivity, though really only slightly more so.

The feeling of denigration isn't due to others looking prettier.

You are assuming that effort is the problem. And that is sorta part of the issue with people who think like you. Aesthetics hunting is one of the oldest, widespread player motivations of this game, so belittling that value in WoW puts you in the vast minority and gives you very little say. No, that is not all they say. That's all some say. Many others... are much less gracious, and no, what's petty is feeling the need to say "Look how great I am" in the first place. You are assuming that I have a problem with that because I can not do it. I am starting to get the sense through these assumptions that you are the one with the problems.

Prestige is proven simply through achievements that you can link, and through simply having the loot. The loot should not need to be especially visually appealing to most in order for you or others to feel special.

[Biomega]

You are assuming that effort is the problem. And that is sorta part of the issue with people who think like you. Aesthetics hunting is one of the oldest, widespread player motivations of this game, so belittling that value in WoW puts you in the vast minority and gives you very little say. No, that is not all they say. That's all some say. Many others... are much less gracious, and no, what's petty is feeling the need to say "Look how great I am" in the first place. You are assuming that I have a problem with that because I can not do it. I am starting to get the sense through these assumptions that you are the one with the problems.

I'm directly responding to what YOU said:

rewards that you can flaunt at people and make them feel lesser because you look better.

I never held nor do I hold that view of cosmetics. YOU seem to, though?

Prestige is proven simply through achievements that you can link, and through simply having the loot. The loot should not need to be especially visually appealing to most in order for you or others to feel special.

Says who? You are asserting that achievements are enough to prove prestige, but time and time again it has been shown that participation in prestige-heavy activities proportionately INCREASES with tangible (though not mechanical) rewards; and the inverse is true, too (i.e. as soon as there are no tangible rewards, participation decreases). This seems to directly contradict your assertion that people don't want (cosmetic) loot to prove prestige.

Do you actually HAVE anything to back up your point or is that just a case of "this how *I* think things should be, even if the rest of the world disagrees"?

[Efcharisto]

I'm directly responding to what YOU said:



I never held nor do I hold that view of cosmetics. YOU seem to, though?


Says who? You are asserting that achievements are enough to prove prestige, but time and time again it has been shown that participation in prestige-heavy activities proportionately INCREASES with tangible (though not mechanical) rewards; and the inverse is true, too (i.e. as soon as there are no tangible rewards, participation decreases). This seems to directly contradict your assertion that people don't want (cosmetic) loot to prove prestige.

Do you actually HAVE anything to back up your point or is that just a case of "this how *I* think things should be, even if the rest of the world disagrees"?

No. I never anything about effort.

You blatantly stated cosmetics are not a big deal.


Time and time again based on... what? I didn't say there can't or shouldn't be tangible rewards. Only that they are not especially aesthetically pleasing. Just unique.

I have as much as you do atm. Seeing as my argument actually benefits the majority, and not elitism like yours... I'd say the rest of the world does not disagree with me.

[Biomega]

You blatantly stated cosmetics are not a big deal.

Where? When? Are you confusing me with someone else?

Time and time again based on... what? I didn't say there can't or shouldn't be tangible rewards. Only that they are not especially aesthetically pleasing. Just unique.

So you're saying "give them something, but make sure it's ugly"? Why, though? Why NOT reward higher effort with a better reward? That seems to be a core mechanic not just of this game

I have as much as you do atm. Seeing as my argument actually benefits the majority, and not elitism like yours... I'd say the rest of the world does not disagree with me.

The rest of the world DOES disagree with you, at least in the sense that they expect rewards to be at least somewhat proportional to the effort invested; this is clearly borne out by the available data (like participation rates etc.): if you put rewards on something, participation goes up, and if you don't it does not.

You're saying let's forget about that and just put some token reward on there with the expressed intent of making it WORSE than a reward for something requiring less effort. Which seems to go entirely counter to what the data says people respond to.

[Shinrael]

Maybe read the post? I am defending the current WoW developers vision for the game, even if it is not my vision. They clearly want to make a game like it is now - a game where the RWF is important and there is a lot of very difficult content. A game where it takes the biggest nerds in the world a month to clear the Jailer. A game that does not make as much money as it conceivably could because it is not trying to be everything for everyone.

This is a rebuttal to the endless nonsense we get on these forums from people who apparently want Activision executives to take a more active role in game development and water down the game to where the highest difficulty is normal mode.

I could have just seen your single comment where you mention both Elden Ring and DOS2 as examples of good games and I would have known we align well in way of thinking towards games. But I also read your OP and I agree a lot with what you say. Sadly, people on this forum do not have the capacity to separate from their ego/emotions and analyze WoW, then provide constructive feedback on how to improve it. Much less appreciate someone else's such effort. Titans forbid someone say anything short of praisal about WoW.... ? And actually when you do praise it people will shit on you again. Because they love and hate WoW and can't decide on one and have to shit on anyone who loves it and shit on anyone who hates it. Like I've been on both fucking sides so many times. I've praised the game in so many threads, people shat on that. I've provided constructive feedback and suggestions in so many threads, people shat on that too. Cheers for the effort, mate.

Elden Ring and DOS2 also Trine 4 are my 3 favourite games of all times and they are all so different, yet one thing is common among them - the strong vision and passion poured into them. It makes me very sad and angry imagining what WoW could have been if Blizzard had a different design philosophy.

[User517849]

WoW is doing this right now. Look at the RWF.

Elden Ring has sold well over 10 million copies in a few months. Divinity OS 2 is widely considered the greatest CRPG of all time and made bank.

Elden Ring is the equivalent of someone picking up WoW with Shadowlands and playing for 1-2 months or WoW without Shadowlands for 4 months so it's not really comparable.

I'd also argue that Elden Ring could've sold even more copies if it was more accessible (easy difficulty, etc.), not less.

Personally, a lot of Elden Ring's design I don't agree with because it intentionally involves hindering the player and bringing the player out of the game to look up things on a Wiki or the Internet.

I'm not saying it should have quest tracking, etc. on as a default option but there should be an option to reduce the difficulty and turn on tracking.

That said, as a mostly single player game, accessibility matters a lot less than a MMO.

[deenman]

WOTLK & Cata were where I enjoyed gearing most

cata toned it down,but wrath was just objectivly a bad system,getting near bis pre raid gear from extremly easy and boring dungeons was just bad,end of story,im not against badges,the way they worked early tbc(not sunwell) was fine,and ilvl upgrades like mop and wod were good

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Elden Ring is the equivalent of someone picking up WoW with Shadowlands and playing for 1-2 months or WoW without Shadowlands for 4 months so it's not really comparable.

I'd also argue that Elden Ring could've sold even more copies if it was more accessible (easy difficulty, etc.), not less.

Personally, a lot of Elden Ring's design I don't agree with because it intentionally involves hindering the player and bringing the player out of the game to look up things on a Wiki or the Internet.

I'm not saying it should have quest tracking, etc. on as a default option but there should be an option to reduce the difficulty and turn on tracking. That said, as a mostly single player game, accessibility matters a lot less than a MMO.

Oh yeah,FromSoftware could easily make more money by doing things different,but that isnt their intent for those games,i dont even think it would be such a bad idea to have an easy mode....their games arent like bethesda where harder difficulty just means more numbers,or witcher where harder difficuly just means you need to use more of the ingame systems,i guess doing so would basicaly end up having the 2 modes feel like completly different games

[User517849]

I could have just seen your single comment where you mention both Elden Ring and DOS2 as examples of good games and I would have known we align well in way of thinking towards games. But I also read your OP and I agree a lot with what you say. Sadly, people on this forum do not have the capacity to separate from their ego/emotions and analyze WoW, then provide constructive feedback on how to improve it. Much less appreciate someone else's such effort. Titans forbid someone say anything short of praisal about WoW.... ? And actually when you do praise it people will shit on you again. Because they love and hate WoW and can't decide on one and have to shit on anyone who loves it and shit on anyone who hates it. Like I've been on both fucking sides so many times. I've praised the game in so many threads, people shat on that. I've provided constructive feedback and suggestions in so many threads, people shat on that too. Cheers for the effort, mate.

Elden Ring and DOS2 also Trine 4 are my 3 favourite games of all times and they are all so different, yet one thing is common among them - the strong vision and passion poured into them. It makes me very sad and angry imagining what WoW could have been if Blizzard had a different design philosophy.

I disagree. For a game like WoW, you want as broad of a userbase as possible that enjoys a variety of different activities. World Quests, Old Raids, Mount Farming, LFR, etc. while also providing more difficult content that players opt into. I'd further argue that old content is an extremely lucrative market that WoW doesn't exploit enough. The development costs have already been paid. Expanding the time people explore the content only makes fiscal sense.

The player base that WoW should cater to the most are the casual players by giving them:
1. Easy alternate progression that doesn't require group content but is limited by weekly distribution limits
2. Easy access to engage in alternate game play (old raids, pet battles, old dungeons). This includes more portals and teleports to old raids, etc.

That's more of FFXIV's design paradigm and it pays off in spades because it doesn't make the game a die hard grind fest and makes it easier for players with limited time to hop on for an hour or two and find something enjoyable to do.

Suggestions I'd make for WoW specifically are:
1. Account wide teleportation unlocks (with a cooldown) to old dungeons or raids. The account wide cooldowns would be reset when the end boss of the raid or dungeon is killed.
2. Bad luck protection for rare drops. For example, the first time you kill X boss the rare mount or item has a 1% drop rate, next time it's a 1.1% drop rate, etc. Additionally, transmog items that you don't have are more likely to drop than items you do have. This would need a toggle, though, in case you were intentionally farming for a duplicate item.

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cata toned it down,but wrath was just objectivly a bad system,getting near bis pre raid gear from extremly easy and boring dungeons was just bad,end of story,im not against badges,the way they worked early tbc(not sunwell) was fine,and ilvl upgrades like mop and wod were good

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Oh yeah,FromSoftware could easily make more money by doing things different,but that isnt their intent for those games,i dont even think it would be such a bad idea to have an easy mode....their games arent like bethesda where harder difficulty just means more numbers,or witcher where harder difficuly just means you need to use more of the ingame systems,i guess doing so would basicaly end up having the 2 modes feel like completly different games

Yeah, but my point is that a game with a broader base makes more money and games that make more money generally have more resources available when it comes to development, etc, benefiting both the casual and hardcore player.

Maybe it's because I've played MMOs for so long but the more difficult a game is, the more likely I'm going to seek out the meta, and the less likely I'm going to engage in explorative game play. Especially with the internet, since there's always a guide that explains generally the best and most efficient ways to do things.

[Efcharisto]

Where? When? Are you confusing me with someone else?


So you're saying "give them something, but make sure it's ugly"? Why, though? Why NOT reward higher effort with a better reward? That seems to be a core mechanic not just of this game


The rest of the world DOES disagree with you, at least in the sense that they expect rewards to be at least somewhat proportional to the effort invested; this is clearly borne out by the available data (like participation rates etc.): if you put rewards on something, participation goes up, and if you don't it does not.

You're saying let's forget about that and just put some token reward on there with the expressed intent of making it WORSE than a reward for something requiring less effort. Which seems to go entirely counter to what the data says people respond to.

I'm not sure there's a need to usurp that - ESPECIALLY for rewards that have no value other than aesthetics or prestige.

By saying there's no need to usurp something you think is important over something that has no value other than xyz you are outright saying xyz is not important enough.

Once again, being exceptional in this context is often not about effort. Not deserving of such a highly sought after reward. And when it is, that's even more often because you had a privilege others did not. Not always, but quite often.

Not necessarily ugly. Just not better looking than what others can get if they try just as hard but come up short.

No. You say the rest of the world disagrees based on your interpretation of the data you've looked at. Obviously participation is going to go up if there is a prize people want. But whether that participation actually yields what is sought after is another story. And so is whether the people that participate and do get what they are after would care much less if they hadn't had to put in more effort. You asked if I have anything to back up my point and I ask the same of you. Do you? Because the supposed data you assert doesn't prove your point. It doesn't prove that only the best players should get the best looking cosmetics. Because getting more participation in the highest tiers isn't everything.

[Glordif]

I broadly agree with the OPs post, I disagree with the current remaining WoW pundits the game is not absolutely not designed for the RFW or the top 1%. I don't even think Blizzard design to thwart those players. A lot of people don't realise but for every guild that clear cutting edge before halfway through the tier they're 3x more guilds who progress and either get it just before the tier ends or not at all. Blizzard caters to these players.

It makes logical sense, how many here only raid normal or heroic and after killing the final boss stop until the new patch. Towards the end of the tier you don't see guilds advertising for heroic or normal raids spots. Blizzard have identified that these players still pushing mythic tend to remain active much further through the patch and over time have shifted their design to focus on these players. We're not talking the top 10% here. I'd argue this number is closer to 40% of the current player base.

Blizzard need to realise these players are sticking around for the challenge so they don't need as much curation and stop trying to hold back their progress with week 8 creation catalyst nonsense. In my view Blizzard need to take a look at that heroic and normal group. They need to clearly define what difficulty these modes are for and who they expect to clear them.

Finally they need to give those players something to keep them engaged after they clear the heroic content. These players don't care about the competition or being the best so mythic + and pvp are something their not interested in. Player housing is an obvious example, but better crafting or other non progression systems are great ways to keep these players logging in. In the end I'm not a game designer so I don't know what's best. What I think Blizzard need to worry about is that I don't think they're good enough game designers to cater to these players

[cparle87]

User feedback which generally doesn't end well. It's how a lot of games go awry when developers abandon their own vision for a game to placate the whims of their customers. You can't have missed how many people over the years think they're better designers than Blizzard or want to vote on every feature as to whether it goes in or not. Letting your customers design the game is usually the end.

It sometimes happens with long-running games where the same people have run it for a long while. At some point inspiration runs out and new content becomes a game of moving deck chairs around. Sound familiar?

EDIT: One more thing. If it sounds like I'm implying that successful game developers should ignore a lot of customer feedback I clearly am. I do think that one of the significant issues with the current game is that collectively they've let their customers guide them into decisions where they abandoned their original design altogether. Cataclysm and their reaction to the first six months of people leaving is probably the clearest example of that. Sometimes it's required as a business thing. But once it starts, it usually spreads until the cart is driving the horse. There's an argument to be made that WoW is deep in the throes of this despite the constant bickering that they don't listen. They do and often results don't show up until the next expansion a year or so down the line.

Another example I think is that Blizzard used to pride itself on iterating on systems until they had them right. Now they simply abandon them because people hate the initial roll-outs. Throw-away systems, throw-away content, expansions that, in fact, act more like standalone sequels than a coherent whole.

Exactly this. I've been thinking this for years. And the problem with this is, as you said, it happens years down the road. People hated dungeons being the be-all end-all for everything (valor, gear, etrc) so MoP had worthless dungeons. MoP had tons of dailies including 2 reps locked behind a third one. WoD had no dailies everything option so the raid or die mindset came in along with "lol no content." So Legion we had infinite progression from artifacts but people burned out on that. So BFA made the infinite progression less powerful but added alternate progression from azerite gear and essences. And now we have covenants. I wonder how Blizz will react to the feedback this time.