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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by User517849 View Post
    I disagree. For a game like WoW, you want as broad of a userbase as possible that enjoys a variety of different activities. World Quests, Old Raids, Mount Farming, LFR, etc. while also providing more difficult content that players opt into. I'd further argue that old content is an extremely lucrative market that WoW doesn't exploit enough. The development costs have already been paid. Expanding the time people explore the content only makes fiscal sense.

    The player base that WoW should cater to the most are the casual players by giving them:
    1. Easy alternate progression that doesn't require group content but is limited by weekly distribution limits
    2. Easy access to engage in alternate game play (old raids, pet battles, old dungeons). This includes more portals and teleports to old raids, etc.

    That's more of FFXIV's design paradigm and it pays off in spades because it doesn't make the game a die hard grind fest and makes it easier for players with limited time to hop on for an hour or two and find something enjoyable to do.

    Suggestions I'd make for WoW specifically are:
    1. Account wide teleportation unlocks (with a cooldown) to old dungeons or raids. The account wide cooldowns would be reset when the end boss of the raid or dungeon is killed.
    2. Bad luck protection for rare drops. For example, the first time you kill X boss the rare mount or item has a 1% drop rate, next time it's a 1.1% drop rate, etc. Additionally, transmog items that you don't have are more likely to drop than items you do have. This would need a toggle, though, in case you were intentionally farming for a duplicate item.

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    Yeah, but my point is that a game with a broader base makes more money and games that make more money generally have more resources available when it comes to development, etc, benefiting both the casual and hardcore player.

    Maybe it's because I've played MMOs for so long but the more difficult a game is, the more likely I'm going to seek out the meta, and the less likely I'm going to engage in explorative game play. Especially with the internet, since there's always a guide that explains generally the best and most efficient ways to do things.
    You are not disagreeing with anything because you have not addressed anything in my post. Perhaps you quoted me by mistake?
    But what you say saddens me deeply, so I will reply anyway.

    I disagree.

    1) ALL games should cater to the vision of the developers making them. Stop making things you do not enjoy making. Make things you enjoy and like-minded people will come. Majority of WoW players are casuals.... BECAUSE THE GAME IS CATERING TO THEM. Make a game for non-casuals, and non-casuals will come to you. Again, Elden Ring and DOS2 are perfect examples. Blizzard has insane amounts of profit from WoW and other games. Yet they continue making games that waste your time rather than being challenging and fun for casuals (non-casuals get their challenge/fun from Raids/PvP). Having more money does not mean the game will be better. Because developers will pour the money they got into more of the same thing that generated that money. So if "casual" content generates money, they will make more "casual" content rather than make something interesting and challenging and fun.

    2) I am what people call a casual. And as a casual, none of your suggestions make the game more enjoyable for me. A portal to old raids will not make old raids more enjoyable. You can give me a portal to my IRL workplace and I will still not want to spend 9 hours there (this is just an example, I actually enjoy my work, but most people don't).

    3) What makes the gameplay of games fun (story and other elements of games are not included here) are the challenge and the tools to overcome that challenge. Games provide constant challenge. Once they stop being challenging, they are just wasting your time. Challenge does not mean Mythic difficulty. Lucid Nightmare puzzle was challenging. Traversing Suramar and Withered Training Scenario in 7.0 with WQ gear was challenging. Figuring out Rolo's Riddle in Timeless Isle was challenging. These are all activities that do not require you to be skilled at your class. Yet they were challenging. Why? They required you to think, to use your brain, to figure things out, to watch out for mobs/landmarks/things, to pay attention. All 3 were content designed for "casuals" (a.k.a non-raiders/PvPers). All 3 were amazingly good and fun. We rarely ever get that kind of content in WoW. Why? Why is leveling not like that? Why do quests just tell you where to go? Why do mobs just auto attack you? These are problems WoW needs to address. Fun gameplay should not be a miracle, it should be the standard. Gathering cool transmogs is fun, I agree. But as it is right now, there is 0 challenge/fun in running old raids. Mind you, feeling nostalgic or appreciating the aesthetic of a said old raid does not equal fun. I can appreciate something's beauty whilst being challenged. People are only running old raids because the rewards are so lucrative (shiny armor that they couldn't get when it was current). Take that away and who will be doing old raids? I might still visit Sunwell every now and then because I love the aesthetic of that place but... how many people would do it? And how often? Would it justify paying a sub?

    4) I too advocate for more account wide progression and bad luck protection. But those will not make the game more fun. They will make the game more tolerable. Making things tolerable should not be a goal to strive for.

    5) If you disagree with my points above, please describe to me in detail what a "fun" game is and the last time you had genuine fun playing a game.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    1) ALL games should cater to the vision of the developers making them.
    And the flip side of that: if the vision doesn't work commercially, the developer should be replaced with one whose vision does work. That way, the game can reach a state where the (current) developer's vision is respected, and yet the game works commercially.

    This is how it works in creative fields. Sure, you can insist on the purity of your vision. But you can't insist that others have an obligation to pay you for it. You are competing with plenty of other creatives who have their own distinct visions; why is yours to be preferred over theirs?
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2022-04-16 at 01:51 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  3. #383
    The distinction that needs made is:

    Creating challenging experiences versus making things hard, just to be hard.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Was there a time in woes history that you were happy with the gearing structure? If so, when?
    cant speak for him - but the most fun in wow i had back in wolk - mop era - when game was easy fun and felt very rewarding with badges/vp system

    i never even for a second felt need to have full hc raid gear back then - and neither did most players

    we all were perfeckly happy with our crappy badge / dungeon gear on alts. and game was so much better back then without infinite dififculties for nolifers. but when there was clear moment of "uff im done gearing that char "

    since wod it has been nothing but downhill for wow. because thats when they started to severly overtune everything in game making casuals feel unwanted

    FF now is basicly wow from that era to everyone who plays it. they really learned all lessons from wow and how to not design their game.
    thats why they are the mmo king supreme atm .

    i cannot wait enough for wolk classic. when it releases retail is dead to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diatribe View Post
    The distinction that needs made is:

    Creating challenging experiences versus making things hard, just to be hard.
    simplest solution ? tournament realms

    let all toxic elitest nolifers swam in the same puddle of toxic garbage and s.... separated from casuals.

    asian mmorpgs figured that out years ago .

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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Exactly this. I've been thinking this for years. And the problem with this is, as you said, it happens years down the road. People hated dungeons being the be-all end-all for everything (valor, gear, etrc) so MoP had worthless dungeons. MoP had tons of dailies including 2 reps locked behind a third one. WoD had no dailies everything option so the raid or die mindset came in along with "lol no content." So Legion we had infinite progression from artifacts but people burned out on that. So BFA made the infinite progression less powerful but added alternate progression from azerite gear and essences. And now we have covenants. I wonder how Blizz will react to the feedback this time.
    nah they failed because they listened to top 5 % and streamers and kept reinventing the wheel .

    instead stick to simple working solutions of what wolk/cata had aka

    a)badge gear
    b)2-3 completly new dungeons each tier.
    c)raids decently chalenging but not being a frikkin monster basterd child of action shooter and frogger.

    there was never need for reinventing wheel - what there was need for is each tier lasting 7-8 months.

    instead wasting time on convoluted systems that nobody needs they woudl rather design raids that have 7-8 bosses and put completly new 4 dungeons each tier.
    maybe first tier instead releasing 8 dungeons release 4 and save next 4 for X.1 ? instead hiring woke lgbt enforcer hire more dungeon designers.

    viola 90 % of wows problems solved instantly.

    you can counter it that elitest nolifers would cry that they run out of content to fast ? i say f.... them - tell them to leave game and go .... themselves. they are the reason we got SL. game should be never catered totop 5% only .

    then they would loose 5-10 % each tier but who would be coming back tier after tier. instead loosing 95% who now play FF14 not wow.

    SL is unsalvagable but there is still hope for 10.0 if we fight with them hard enough - starting with absolutely nobody preordering on 19th showing them to not mess with players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imrindar View Post
    If you want a difficult MMO go try Wildstar. Oh wait...
    wow is technicaly much harder then wildstar at this point.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2022-04-16 at 03:04 PM.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And the flip side of that: if the vision doesn't work commercially, the developer should be replaced with one whose vision does work. That way, the game can reach a state where the (current) developer's vision is respected, and yet the game works commercially.

    This is how it works in creative fields. Sure, you can insist on the purity of your vision. But you can't insist that others have an obligation to pay you for it. You are competing with plenty of other creatives who have their own distinct visions; why is yours to be preferred over theirs?
    Not sure why this is about my vision? If Ion is Lead Game Design, then it's about his vision. If his vision of the game leads to everyone quitting, then his vision wasn't good enough. And that's fine. People won't play his game and that's it. Now, in the case of big companies like Acti-Blizzard, there are people above him and they can just fire/replace him. And they are free to do that if they deem his results unsatisfying.

    If we are talking about an indie game dev, then if the dev's vision isn't good enough.... people won't play it? End of story? What's the problem? I still stand by the words that devs shouldn't cater to anyone in particular and your post hasn't opposed that statement.

    But actually there's no such thing as "vision" not working. If you sit down and spend hours, days, months, years to come up with a gameplay loop that you enjoy (literally ENVISION it) and turn that into a game.... you cannot fail. It might be just you that likes that gameplay loop and you might not sell many copies... but you made a game that you enjoy? Anything else is worse. Making a game that sells but you don't enjoy is a worse way of life than making a game that you enjoy but doesn't sell. Now, if you never even stopped to think if you enjoy the game and it ended up not selling... well duuh? The vision didn't fail. It did not exist in the first place and that person should not be a game dev. Like... if you wanna make something, ANYTHING in life, pour your soul into it or go hide somewhere.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    Not sure why this is about my vision? If Ion is Lead Game Design, then it's about his vision.
    I don't think I was implying it was your vision.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    "the average wow player" never does m + in first place

    the "Average player that does m+ " most likely stops around 7-8.

    people who clear m+15 are tiny minority .

    this is why wow is such bad game - because there are people who genuinly belive that average wow players are people who do +15.
    the

    without oubt Ion and devs design this game around people who do +15 - and that why SL lost 90 % of players
    Doing a +15 is the bare minimum if you're remotely interested in m+ as a game mode. You could do a +15 in gear from the previous season without any problems on the first week of the new season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    cant speak for him - but the most fun in wow i had back in wolk - mop era - when game was easy fun and felt very rewarding with badges/vp system
    The only positive about mop was that the class design was excellent for most classes. The reward system was shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude, just give up, they don’t understand.

    Maybe if Blizzard forces everyone to pug only for an entire season they will understand how shitty the game actually is for people that cannot benefit a proper guild.
    The problem with pugging is that most people in pugs are clueless about the game. Stop pugging and get friends to play with if you don't like dealing with that.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2022-04-16 at 08:04 PM.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    Majority of WoW players are casuals.... BECAUSE THE GAME IS CATERING TO THEM. Make a game for non-casuals, and non-casuals will come to you.
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but majority of MMO players are casuals, period.

    That's why Wildstar so epically failed. They also were slurping that "HARDCOARRR" kool-aid and successfully chased off all those filthy casuals that keep the lights on for such MMOs.

    This is the reality - for every non-casual, there are 20 casuals and you need them if you want to keep afloat.

    Besides, Blizzard already tried that and failed hard.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  9. #389
    For all the people saying they are casual.

    Real casuals don’t read, let alone post, on mmo-champion.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Does this mean the game could be more popular and make more money? Sure! But why do we, as gamers, care about that again? As long as the game makes enough revenue to sustain itself and keep up a decent production schedule, then what is the problem, exactly?
    Because companies often have profit thresholds. If profit margins dip below a certain percent, they sometimes shutter the business, regardless if it is still profitable or not.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    WoW is doing this right now. Look at the RWF.

    Elden Ring has sold well over 10 million copies in a few months. Divinity OS 2 is widely considered the greatest CRPG of all time and made bank.
    Elden Ring and other games aren't quality games.

    The biggest marketing today is the streamers.

    Asmongold could pick up solitaire and even more people from the most active server on WoW would play solitaire. It still doesn't say anything about WoW or solitaire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User517849 View Post
    Elden Ring is the equivalent of someone picking up WoW with Shadowlands and playing for 1-2 months or WoW without Shadowlands for 4 months so it's not really comparable.

    I'd also argue that Elden Ring could've sold even more copies if it was more accessible (easy difficulty, etc.), not less.

    Personally, a lot of Elden Ring's design I don't agree with because it intentionally involves hindering the player and bringing the player out of the game to look up things on a Wiki or the Internet.

    I'm not saying it should have quest tracking, etc. on as a default option but there should be an option to reduce the difficulty and turn on tracking.

    That said, as a mostly single player game, accessibility matters a lot less than a MMO.
    It's a bugged trash game having the spot light - because of the leftovers from the FF wagon or the streamer generation decided so.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-04-16 at 09:38 PM.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but majority of MMO players are casuals, period.

    That's why Wildstar so epically failed. They also were slurping that "HARDCOARRR" kool-aid and successfully chased off all those filthy casuals that keep the lights on for such MMOs.

    This is the reality - for every non-casual, there are 20 casuals and you need them if you want to keep afloat.

    Besides, Blizzard already tried that and failed hard.
    Calm down, you're not bursting any bubbles. All MMO players, rather than just WoW's, being casual is news to no one. And I will repeat what I already said "BECAUSE THE GAMES ARE CATERING TO THEM".

    But here is where you're missing the point: Blizzard and other MMO developers don't know what a casual is. If you too think casual is a player who wants to be spoonfed, then you need to be spoonfed some sense. A casual is a player who does not follow the FOMO trends and just does whatever they want. A player who doesn't invest themselves. Casual is not an opposite of "hardcooaaar". The fact that you even brought that up shows up how messed up the situation is. What does "also" mean? Where did you see me use the word harcore?

    If anything, WoW has been catering to hardcore players. WoW caters to both hardcore and casual players. And that's not 2 different audiences. It is ONE audience. Majority of M+ players. It's an audience that wants to progress the game and get challenge and a good reward for it. Non-casual hardcore players do Mythic raiding and high-end rated PvP. But since the casuals do not want to invest as much time and effort (which is not a bad thing), they choose to invest their time and effort into dungeons, as that is a lot more accessible. Of course, some non-casual hardcore players run dungeons too and they are the ones who push keys beyond +15.

    So for the love of the Titans, stop mixing up casuals and hardcore players. They are not two separate entitites. They do not contradict each other. Wildstar did not fail because of catering to hardcore gamers. It simply wasn't appealing in any way. It wasn't visually appealing, the setting was inferior to WoW's - too much on the sci-fi side (this is my own opinion, but considering the failure of the game, it's not hard to assume it must have been so for many people). I gave it a try and was just so "meh".

    Elden Ring is a good example of what I am saying above - it's a game that suits hardcore players. All DS games do. BUT. It also suits casual players. Or should I say it CASUAL HARDCORE players (unlike the other DS games). That's why it is so succesful. The developer had a vision and followed it through and this game was born. And since it provides both challenge and enough ways to overcome that challenge, people absolutely loved it. And so do I.

    The problem with WoW is that Blizzard does not understand what a casual is either. The whole game comes down to Raids, Dungeons and PvP. And those 3 activities come down to being good at target swapping, playing the piano and keeping track of addon messages that tell you when to move, use an ability, etc. All these things require only two skills: fast reflexes and good coordination. What about the people with slower reflexes, poorer coordination but superior strategy skills? Why does nothing require you to use your brain and come up with a plan? Raid comes out and there is a guide. If you don't read it, you don't get invited. You can start your own group but why would anyone join you and try to learn the fight on their own, when it's easier to just read the guide and join a group that does the same? The game is designed to be read about in a guide. Because guides and addons exist, Blizzard has to make the raids so complex that good luck figuring things out on the fly and obviously Mythic raiders manage to do that, but they started somewhere too. People need a proper learning curve if they are to do something so difficult. I thought I couldn't do it and then I played Elden Ring and after getting wrecked by some bosses I decided to figure out a strategy on my own before using guides and I actually managed to. And it was an amazing feeling. And now when I fight a harder boss, which I could not have figured out when I started, I am already forming a strategy in my mind on the go. There are a only a few examples where Blizzard made content that requires you to problem-solve: Lucid Nightmare puzzle, Rolo's Riddle, Withered Training Scenario and a few more. Why isn't there more of this stuff? WHY?


    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    For all the people saying they are casual.

    Real casuals don’t read, let alone post, on mmo-champion.
    Please, be my guest and describe what a casual is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Elden Ring and other games aren't quality games.
    Care to elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diatribe View Post
    The distinction that needs made is:

    Creating challenging experiences versus making things hard, just to be hard.
    This. So much this. Like I can't wrap my mind around the fact people cannot comprehend this.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    For all the people saying they are casual.

    Real casuals don’t read, let alone post, on mmo-champion.
    Finally, a king amongst men

  14. #394
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    But here is where you're missing the point: Blizzard and other MMO developers don't know what a casual is.
    Arguably they think they do and have good reason for thinking so even if it misses the mark. The main lesson they learned in Warlords was that casual players do not want to run out of things to do. They're not wrong even if that's not the full story.

    We can argue forever about the quality of the things they have created to solve that problem but starting with world quests and going on from there the non-instanced non-PVP piece of the game has had stuff to do. Think back to Ion's presentation in Legion and one of the early things he emphasized was that players would be busy and have things to do.

    A lot of what they do now isn't that much to my personal liking but some of the social groups I read (especially on Facebook) are busy with requests about how to do this and that. For the most part they are not complaining. We really don't understand how many players are weekend or only-play-occasionally people but as one of those—I play at most twice a week—keeping caught up, being on the never-ending "treadmill of gear", and anything that is thought of as grindy are things of the past. The game is basically OK for us. There are regular and heroic dungeons, there's LFR and there is whatever there is to do in a zone. This patch apparently is about collecting pets and mounts.

    Again, I'd like to see something a bit more interesting that long lists of things to collect but a lot of people enjoy that and they're not wrong to do so. So for me the question of whether or not WoW's developers understand what a casual player is, I think they do although it's an incomplete understanding and even those of us who don't play much recognize when systems are used over and over with minimal amounts of moving deck chairs around.

    @Argorwal: I'm casual as fuck and I've been here for over 10 years now. There are others although forums no longer offer much if any useful help (see class forums here). That can be found on Facebook and other social media if one knows where to look. Icy Veins does a decent job of getting people started on playing their class as well. So in one sense you're correct. Casuals mostly don't post here because really, who needs the abuse and there's nothing much here that's helpful anyway.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-04-17 at 01:08 AM.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Arguably they think they do and have good reason for thinking so even if it misses the mark. The main lesson they learned in Warlords was that casual players do not want to run out of things to do. They're not wrong even if that's not the full story.

    We can argue forever about the quality of the things they have created to solve that problem but starting with world quests and going on from there the non-instanced non-PVP piece of the game has had stuff to do. Think back to Ion's presentation in Legion and one of the early things he emphasized was that players would be busy and have things to do.

    A lot of what they do now isn't that much to my personal liking but some of the social groups I read (especially on Facebook) are busy with requests about how to do this and that. For the most part they are not complaining. We really don't understand how many players are weekend or only-play-occasionally people but as one of those—I play at most twice a week—keeping caught up, being on the never-ending "treadmill of gear", and anything that is thought of as grindy are things of the past. The game is basically OK for us. There are regular and heroic dungeons, there's LFR and there is whatever there is to do in a zone. This patch apparently is about collecting pets and mounts.

    Again, I'd like to see something a bit more interesting that long lists of things to collect but a lot of people enjoy that and they're not wrong to do so. So for me the question of whether or not WoW's developers understand what a casual player is, I think they do although it's an incomplete understanding and even those of us who don't play much recognize when systems are used over and over with minimal amounts of moving deck chairs around.

    @Argorwal: I'm casual as fuck and I've been here for over 10 years now. There are others although forums no longer offer much if any useful help (see class forums here). That can be found on Facebook and other social media if one knows where to look. Icy Veins does a decent job of getting people started on playing their class as well. So in one sense you're correct. Casuals mostly don't post here because really, who needs the abuse and there's nothing much here that's helpful anyway.
    True. They think they do, but they don't. Being busy and having fun are two so very different concepts.... World Quests give you things to do in outdoor world. They are not fun however. They could have been fun if they didn't appear on the map at all. Imagine that out there in Val'sharah there is a WQ but it does not appear anywhere. So you're going about your business gathering herbs and you encounter an NPC in front of a cave entrance that wasn't there before. They do not have a marker. But if you interact with them, they will have the following text dialogue "I hear whispers from this cave.... I am afraid to go inside but... I need to know...." and you decide to go inside and see if there's something. You reach the bottom and you see a Beast of the Nightmare miniboss. It has some mechanics (imagine a dungeon boss scaled down to 2 man size). If you're a good or geared ("hardcore") player, you can probably handle it after 3-4 tries (just need to figure out the mechanics). OR you can just write in the zone general chat "Found a hidden miniboss, anyone care to join?" and get 2-3 people and steamroll through it (it won't scale up with party size). When you defeat it, it drops two pieces of Normal Raid level loot and a bunch of currency tokens. So if you killed it solo, you get all the gear and currencies. If you 2 manned it, you split the loot (the currencies too). And if you cheesed it with more people, you gotta roll for the stuff. These kind of hidden events could appear all over the game world. They would not be marked or revealed in any way. Only way to stumble upon them would be by chance while exploring the game. Obviously, there is a limit to how many of these can be created and people will eventually write a list of them all and Hardcore players might decide to just check every location every day.... but then why would Hardcore players go through so much effort for a Normal Raid level item... when they can just do HC/Mythic? Casuals too could check a list and collect all the items, basically "cheesing" the game. And that is fine. It's okay to cheese a game. If you want to cheese things and you find that fun, by all means do so. And then the even more casual players who do not check things online will only reap the benefits because they won't know there's a hidden challenge and epic loot waiting for them there. It will be a genuine and epic surprise. And they can have fun exploring the world. Things being hidden in this manner is the exact thing that will make the world alive. As it is right now, the game tells you exactly where you need to go and exactly what you need to do "Travel to X, kill Y" and then you just ignore everything else. Whereas, if these things remain hidden, then you either stumble at them by chance or you put great effort finding them (or you cheese it). And all of these options are okay. Nobody is going to compete about Normal Raid gear. The sky won't fall down.
    Last edited by Shinrael; 2022-04-17 at 01:42 AM.

  16. #396
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    True. They think they do, but they don't. Being busy and having fun are two so very different concepts.... World Quests give you things to do in outdoor world. They are not fun however. They could have been fun if they didn't appear on the map at all.
    Yeah, all of that post. They have largely abandoned the greater idea of exploration.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    You are not disagreeing with anything because you have not addressed anything in my post. Perhaps you quoted me by mistake?
    But what you say saddens me deeply, so I will reply anyway.

    I disagree.

    1) ALL games should cater to the vision of the developers making them. Stop making things you do not enjoy making. Make things you enjoy and like-minded people will come. Majority of WoW players are casuals.... BECAUSE THE GAME IS CATERING TO THEM. Make a game for non-casuals, and non-casuals will come to you. Again, Elden Ring and DOS2 are perfect examples. Blizzard has insane amounts of profit from WoW and other games. Yet they continue making games that waste your time rather than being challenging and fun for casuals (non-casuals get their challenge/fun from Raids/PvP). Having more money does not mean the game will be better. Because developers will pour the money they got into more of the same thing that generated that money. So if "casual" content generates money, they will make more "casual" content rather than make something interesting and challenging and fun.

    2) I am what people call a casual. And as a casual, none of your suggestions make the game more enjoyable for me. A portal to old raids will not make old raids more enjoyable. You can give me a portal to my IRL workplace and I will still not want to spend 9 hours there (this is just an example, I actually enjoy my work, but most people don't).

    3) What makes the gameplay of games fun (story and other elements of games are not included here) are the challenge and the tools to overcome that challenge. Games provide constant challenge. Once they stop being challenging, they are just wasting your time. Challenge does not mean Mythic difficulty. Lucid Nightmare puzzle was challenging. Traversing Suramar and Withered Training Scenario in 7.0 with WQ gear was challenging. Figuring out Rolo's Riddle in Timeless Isle was challenging. These are all activities that do not require you to be skilled at your class. Yet they were challenging. Why? They required you to think, to use your brain, to figure things out, to watch out for mobs/landmarks/things, to pay attention. All 3 were content designed for "casuals" (a.k.a non-raiders/PvPers). All 3 were amazingly good and fun. We rarely ever get that kind of content in WoW. Why? Why is leveling not like that? Why do quests just tell you where to go? Why do mobs just auto attack you? These are problems WoW needs to address. Fun gameplay should not be a miracle, it should be the standard. Gathering cool transmogs is fun, I agree. But as it is right now, there is 0 challenge/fun in running old raids. Mind you, feeling nostalgic or appreciating the aesthetic of a said old raid does not equal fun. I can appreciate something's beauty whilst being challenged. People are only running old raids because the rewards are so lucrative (shiny armor that they couldn't get when it was current). Take that away and who will be doing old raids? I might still visit Sunwell every now and then because I love the aesthetic of that place but... how many people would do it? And how often? Would it justify paying a sub?

    4) I too advocate for more account wide progression and bad luck protection. But those will not make the game more fun. They will make the game more tolerable. Making things tolerable should not be a goal to strive for.

    5) If you disagree with my points above, please describe to me in detail what a "fun" game is and the last time you had genuine fun playing a game.
    What challenge does Elden Ring lose if they added an easier difficulty that wasn't unlocked by default? It could even be difficult to unlock, for example, by dying 10 times to the first boss in the game. All that would happen is people that were turned off by the difficulty of Elden Ring would know they had a path forward. They could intentionally or unintentionally die 10 times to the first boss and chose the easier difficulty.

    There's generally four different axioms of what makes a game enjoyable:
    Achievers, those are people that tend to favor making progress at something (achievements, gear, mounts, pets, etc.)
    Customization (socializers), these are people that enjoy getting different transmog options and experimenting with transmog and other looks.
    Competitive advantage (PvP, Raiding), these are people that enjoy raiding not because of the difficulty but because the gear gives them an advantage over other players
    Content (explorers) these are people that simply enjoy exploring

    Challenge doesn't necessarily fit into any of those archetypes, though it is a consequence of competitive advantage (if everything is quick and easy to get, then no one has an advantage over anyone else).

    I certainly don't enjoy a game like WoW, where "challenging" is more or less tied to your gear level, as being overly challenging. For example, take the difference of Torghast's difficulty at launch (where I felt like it was a struggle and a time sink) compared to now. I found nerfed Torghast much more enjoyable because it was faster and didn't penalize me as severely for mistakes.

    Often, I enjoy grouping up with a friend and simply doing World Bosses and World Quests. I haven't raided because of how much of a sunk cost raiding is.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    Please, be my guest and describe what a casual is.
    We know from studies and polls that they play less than 15 hours/week(all of their games, not only one), they do not consume much media about their games, especially dedicated guides/discussions, they do not partake in forum discussions or putting their opinions out there, in general they don't think much about xy game outside of 5 minutes before and after playing it.

    If you've even a few dozens of comments on this site you're not what Blizzard will consider casual, you might call yourself that, you might play casual hours and you might play "casual content", but you're already way too deep in terms of personal investment to really be one.

    Idk. how this is even so hard to grasp, most gaming buddies and colleagues I have played exactly like this or still do, I've played WoW like this for the first few years back in the day as well, you don't just start as midcore/hardcore player once you get a laptop/pc lul.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by User517849 View Post

    I certainly don't enjoy a game like WoW, where "challenging" is more or less tied to your gear level, as being overly challenging. For example, take the difference of Torghast's difficulty at launch (where I felt like it was a struggle and a time sink) compared to now. I found nerfed Torghast much more enjoyable because it was faster and didn't penalize me as severely for mistakes.
    Torghast was easy mode at launch and it's just boring now because it's just too easy. Even the supposed challenge wings are easy in regards to difficulty, the hard part of them is RNG powers.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2022-04-17 at 08:48 AM.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by LedZeppelin View Post
    Finally, a king amongst men
    There are some people that were not casual and now are.

    When they were dedicated they posted here… and still post now

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