Horde Evil/Honorable Balance?

[Combatbutler]

Ok, well then why are we discussing anything? If the result is going to come down to "well, the authors can do whatever they want", there's nothing to discuss. Character motivations, logical thinking, anything and everything is out the window because it boils down to the authors being able to do what they want.

To kill time, essentially. Discussing warcraft lore in a serious manner is pointless, since its consistency is utterly atrocious.

[wushootaki]

Fair enough.

This isn't even true. We know that the Kul'tiran marines in Durotar were there at the behest of her father; they were part of the second expedition. There's even an associated item that explicitly states this. These Kul'tirans being friendly towards Alliance does not mean they're part of the Alliance, similar to how the Stonemaul ogres are friendly with the Horde but not members of it. You cannot hold the Alliance to the actions of groups that aren't members of it.

We know its true, NOW. At the time it was presented, Kul Tiras was still supposedly in the Alliance. There was no indication otherwise, and the feeling it emitted was Alliance encroaching on Horde territory in multiple zones. It's not until later that we find out they withdrew to deal with internal issues.

Furthermore, the Stonemaul Ogres ARE part of the Horde. They joined under Rexxar, and that's exactly why they are still friendly despite having a leader that doesn't have their best interest in mind. In fact, the ogres in Alterac were also part of the Horde, and sent on a mission by Sylvannas. It wasn't until they found the Crown of Wills and used it that they split off to become the Crushridge

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sto...clan#Third_War

The Stonemaul clan is one of the driving factors people have been asking for Ogres to be playable since Classic. They were also part of the Horde, just not represented by players.

Ok, well then why are we discussing anything? If the result is going to come down to "well, the authors can do whatever they want", there's nothing to discuss. Character motivations, logical thinking, anything and everything is out the window because it boils down to the authors being able to do what they want.

Yes...why are YOU arguing this if you feel that the player characters don't matter? Good question.

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the Argent Crusade are direct descendants of Garithos' New Alliance Remnants and the Blood Elves don't have any beef with them whatsoever

The Argent Crusade is led by Tirion Fordring and was founded after Arthas attacked the Chapel of Light's Hope. Tirion was someone who was kicked out of the Alliance because he chose to save an orc (Eitrigg) from being executed (because Eitrigg had saved him in the past).

The Argent DAWN however is remnants of the Order of the Silver Hand, which some split off to become more fanatical as the Scarlet Crusade.

"At the beginning of the Third War, the Order was suspended by one of its own members, the Prince of Lordaeron Arthas Menethil, as Uther refused to purge the city of Stratholme infected by the plague. Although the paladins continued to fight against the Scourge, the Order and its leadership were decimated by the traitor prince during the fall of Lordaeron, and Highlord Alexandros Mograine succeed the late Uther to organize the resistance. As the original wielder of the Ashbringer, Alexandros became a symbol of rallying against the undead, until he was betrayed due to the machinations of the dreadlord Balnazzar and the Arch-Lich Kel'Thuzad. His death shattered the Silver Hand, who eventually split up between the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade for ideological reasons."

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kni...he_Silver_Hand

I don't see any mention of Garithos, as it seems that the Argent Dawn and Scarlet Crusade are not connected to Garithos and his contingent.

[Magical Mudcrab]

We know its true, NOW. At the time it was presented, Kul Tiras was still supposedly in the Alliance. There was no indication otherwise, and the feeling it emitted was Alliance encroaching on Horde territory in multiple zones. It's not until later that we find out they withdrew to deal with internal issues.

No, you can't quote a quest from an unreliable narrator and say Kul'tiras was part of the Alliance and then outwardly dismiss something that shows the contrary. The Kul'tiran marines were known to not be part of the Alliance at that time. The Alliance of today is not the same thing as the Alliance of Lordaeron.

Yes...why are YOU arguing this if you feel that the player characters don't matter? Good question.

This is so dishonest. We started with talking about faction leaders, you injected the player character into the conversation and acted like they were part of the discussion, and it's not even relevant to what you just quoted. You can't just make an appeal to the authors as a reason to dismiss lore as you're doing, it's dishonest and comes off as bad faith.

The worst part about all of this is that this conversation has gone from actually discussing relevant information about the War of Thorns and its possible justifications to you appealing to minutia. I could grant you every single thing and it wouldn't change the macro conversation, which shows how indefensible your overall position is.

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To kill time, essentially. Discussing warcraft lore in a serious manner is pointless, since its consistency is utterly atrocious.

You fully understand what I mean. If someone opts to dismiss lore, or discuss its implications, under the pretense that the authors can just make arbitrary changes, there's no point in that person even being involved in the conversation.

[Finlandia WOAT]

Warcraft Orc honor is vague to the point of meaninglessness. This is by design, at least in the MMO phase: specificity is limiting for a media franchise written in the mode of never ending sequels. As a result, we, the audience, only get a vague sense of what the Orcs' code of honor really entails. In reality, codes of honor are specific to the point of granularity. They involve rules and rituals and rules should and rules be broken or rituals not followed. For another fantasy race based off cultures of honor, look at the Klingons from later TNG and DS9.

[Ardenaso]

The Argent Crusade is led by Tirion Fordring and was founded after Arthas attacked the Chapel of Light's Hope. Tirion was someone who was kicked out of the Alliance because he chose to save an orc (Eitrigg) from being executed (because Eitrigg had saved him in the past).

The Argent DAWN however is remnants of the Order of the Silver Hand, which some split off to become more fanatical as the Scarlet Crusade.

"At the beginning of the Third War, the Order was suspended by one of its own members, the Prince of Lordaeron Arthas Menethil, as Uther refused to purge the city of Stratholme infected by the plague. Although the paladins continued to fight against the Scourge, the Order and its leadership were decimated by the traitor prince during the fall of Lordaeron, and Highlord Alexandros Mograine succeed the late Uther to organize the resistance. As the original wielder of the Ashbringer, Alexandros became a symbol of rallying against the undead, until he was betrayed due to the machinations of the dreadlord Balnazzar and the Arch-Lich Kel'Thuzad. His death shattered the Silver Hand, who eventually split up between the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade for ideological reasons."

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kni...he_Silver_Hand

I don't see any mention of Garithos, as it seems that the Argent Dawn and Scarlet Crusade are not connected to Garithos and his contingent.

bruh they're Lordaeronians; the Argent Crusade came from the Argent Dawn which came from the Scarlet Crusade which came from both the Silver Hand and the New Alliance remnants

[wushootaki]

bruh they're Lordaeronians; the Argent Crusade came from the Argent Dawn which came from the Scarlet Crusade which came from both the Silver Hand and the New Alliance remnants

And? Unless you show me where its canon that it was the same men under Garithos, you're assumoing. Tirion is the leader and wasn't Alliance at all. Several other races in the Argent Crusade as well that wouldn't be Lordaeronian.

[Ardenaso]

And? Unless you show me where its canon that it was the same men under Garithos, you're assumoing

Garithos was the leader of the Alliance of Lordaeron that time, Silver Hand included

[wushootaki]

Garithos was the leader of the Alliance of Lordaeron that time, Silver Hand included

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kni...he_Silver_Hand

At the beginning of the Third War, the Order was suspended by one of its own members, the Prince of Lordaeron Arthas Menethil, as Uther refused to purge the city of Stratholme infected by the plague. Although the paladins continued to fight against the Scourge, the Order and its leadership were decimated by the traitor prince during the fall of Lordaeron, and Highlord Alexandros Mograine succeed the late Uther to organize the resistance. As the original wielder of the Ashbringer, Alexandros became a symbol of rallying against the undead, until he was betrayed due to the machinations of the dreadlord Balnazzar and the Arch-Lich Kel'Thuzad. His death shattered the Silver Hand, who eventually split up between the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade for ideological reasons.

This is during WC3, as that's when Uther dies. The Comic featuring Alexandros Mograine takes place after Uther's death.

Furthermore, here we have: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Scourging_of_Lordaeron

"Even with Arthas departing for Quel'Thalas the damage done to Lordaeron and the Scourge forces left behind ensured the land stayed with the dead. The devastating attack saw refugees fleeing west with Jaina Proudmoore to Kalimdor and heading south to the safety of Stormwind and Ironforge. However, life still remained within the continent as resistance movements against the Scourge were being created in the form of the Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn, and the Alliance resistance. "

So we have 3 things that have formed here at the same time: The Argent Dawn (This is not Garithos), The Scarlet Crusade (This is not Garithos), and the Alliance Resistance (This is Garithos).

[Ardenaso]

we have 3 things that have formed here at the same time: The Argent Dawn (This is not Garithos), The Scarlet Crusade (This is not Garithos), and the Alliance Resistance (This is Garithos).

but the Argent Dawn was formed after Tyrosus saw the corruption within the Scarlet Crusade when they had Mograine and Fairbanks killed; surely the Scarlets would have some time when they weren't "evil" yet like when they still had High Elves and Dwarves in their ranks and they didn't see anyone else as Scourge agents; and guess where did the Scarlet Crusade military and militia come from? Lordaeronians

but even if the Scarlet Crusade and the New Alliance were formed at the same time, that would be confusing to Warcraft 3 Purists; there was no indication of the Scarlet Crusade's existence in TFT even when you faced the Silver Hand's last straggers

now, tell me again why "Garithos is human, therefore human bad" doesn't apply to the fellow Lordaeronians who just simply happened to be "not Alliance"?

[sighy]

but the Argent Dawn was formed after Tyrosus saw the corruption within the Scarlet Crusade when they had Mograine and Fairbanks killed; surely the Scarlets would have some time when they weren't "evil" yet like when they still had High Elves and Dwarves in their ranks and they didn't see anyone else as Scourge agents; and guess where did the Scarlet Crusade military and militia come from? Lordaeronians

but even if the Scarlet Crusade and the New Alliance were formed at the same time, that would be confusing to Warcraft 3 Purists; there was no indication of the Scarlet Crusade's existence in TFT even when you faced the Silver Hand's last straggers

now, tell me again why "Garithos is human, therefore human bad" doesn't apply to the fellow Lordaeronians who just simply happened to be "not Alliance"?

Mostly the fault of Blizzard for treating them as basically either Aliance or overzealous light cultists over the years, with the only real deviation being the Syndicate, which frankly is it's own can of worms, while the early history of the Scarlet Crusade is mostly covered by comicbooks, for some reason...

[Grazrug]

The Horde being evil is not the problem. The problem is that Blizzard can't stick to their deeds. The Horde has become an experiment where Blizzard flung on all their ideas with no consitency. Unlike the Alliance who will always be a noble bright collection of allied nation states who mutually support each other.

[wushootaki]

but the Argent Dawn was formed after Tyrosus saw the corruption within the Scarlet Crusade when they had Mograine and Fairbanks killed; surely the Scarlets would have some time when they weren't "evil" yet like when they still had High Elves and Dwarves in their ranks and they didn't see anyone else as Scourge agents; and guess where did the Scarlet Crusade military and militia come from? Lordaeronians

but even if the Scarlet Crusade and the New Alliance were formed at the same time, that would be confusing to Warcraft 3 Purists; there was no indication of the Scarlet Crusade's existence in TFT even when you faced the Silver Hand's last straggers

now, tell me again why "Garithos is human, therefore human bad" doesn't apply to the fellow Lordaeronians who just simply happened to be "not Alliance"?

It did. At the point the forsaken approached the blood elves, they were no longer human and had experienced the same racism from Stormwind. We didn't get nonsense about humans accepting the forsaken (en masse) until BFA. And again, they were led by Lor'themar's former leader...someone he implicitly trusted when she was alive.

[Ardenaso]

It did. At the point the forsaken approached the blood elves, they were no longer human and had experienced the same racism from Stormwind. We didn't get nonsense about humans accepting the forsaken (en masse) until BFA. And again, they were led by Lor'themar's former leader...someone he implicitly trusted when she was alive.

I wasn't talking about the Forsaken

[wushootaki]

I wasn't talking about the Forsaken

Then why did you join in on a conversation that was specifically speaking about whether Lor'themar had reservations joining the Forsaken because those Forsaken were the same Lordaeronians that were racist against them under Garithos --- and how he put them aside because Sylvannas was leading them?

[Ardenaso]

Then why did you join in on a conversation that was specifically speaking about whether Lor'themar had reservations joining the Forsaken because those Forsaken were the same Lordaeronians that were racist against them under Garithos --- and how he put them aside because Sylvannas was leading them?

I was talking about the Argent Lordaeronians, who were the same nationality as Garithos and practically under his leadership when he was still alive

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Mostly the fault of Blizzard for treating them as basically either Aliance or overzealous light cultists over the years, with the only real deviation being the Syndicate, which frankly is it's own can of worms, while the early history of the Scarlet Crusade is mostly covered by comicbooks, for some reason...

well yeah it all boils down to bad writing again

[Shadowferal]

I have ideas for 3-4 factions, one of which would be for the player that enjoys being the bad guy. (Some people seem to like Warhammer's "chaos gods" so this gives them an option to be so...dark and edgy in WoW)

my idea for a "WC3 purist WoW" is:

Alliance: Stormwindian, High Elf, Bronzebeard, Gnome Horde: Orc, Darkspear, Tauren, Ogre Forsaken: Undead Human, Undead Elf, Alteraci Human, Blood Elf Sentinels: Night Elf, Dark Troll, Furbolg, Cenarius' Children

obviously the Forsaken here would be actually morally gray leaning evil; while Sentinels are morally gray leaning towards ecofascism and territorialism

Yea...ideas not far from my own. I'd go back to the original races in the game and pace things out.
Some added elements would be classes that would bridge the original factions in the same way druids connect Elf with Tauren. Such as "Sunwalkers" with Paladins. A friction would develop as I'd also add "Scarlet Crusader" into the mix. (Essentially not quite Human supremacists but more "Alliance" supremacists...Varian once had dialogue that condemned the "monstrous" races. He could fit the bill as a former commander trying to attone for earlier atrocities...or he could still be an a-hole. Still working on it)

As for a 4th faction...it wouldn't technically exist. It would be dedicated to evil and only your character would be in the know. Eg, a rolled Forsaken is "neutral," and as far as anyone knows the toon is trying to find its humanity (or similar) by simply doing better in its unlife. ...or it hates all life and wants the world to become a massive graveyard..."Hail Arthas, pray for us!

Not looking at any races after MoP just yet.

[Ardenaso]

Yea...ideas not far from my own. I'd go back to the original races in the game and pace things out.
Some added elements would be classes that would bridge the original factions in the same way druids connect Elf with Tauren. Such as "Sunwalkers" with Paladins. A friction would develop as I'd also add "Scarlet Crusader" into the mix. (Essentially not quite Human supremacists but more "Alliance" supremacists...Varian once had dialogue that condemned the "monstrous" races. He could fit the bill as a former commander trying to attone for earlier atrocities...or he could still be an a-hole. Still working on it)

As for a 4th faction...it wouldn't technically exist. It would be dedicated to evil and only your character would be in the know. Eg, a rolled Forsaken is "neutral," and as far as anyone knows the toon is trying to find its humanity (or similar) by simply doing better in its unlife. ...or it hates all life and wants the world to become a massive graveyard..."Hail Arthas, pray for us!

Not looking at any races after MoP just yet.

well Scarlet Crusade was "Alliance of Lordaeron" supremacist before Balnazzar took over Saidan's body and turned it into Human supremacists (they had Dwarves and High Elves in their ranks)

I also had this:

Forsaken: Undead Human, Undead Elf, Alteraci Human, Blood Elf
Sentinels: Night Elf, Dark Troll, Furbolg, Cenarius' Children

[Shadowferal]

well Scarlet Crusade was "Alliance of Lordaeron" supremacist before Balnazzar took over Saidan's body and turned it into Human supremacists (they had Dwarves and High Elves in their ranks)

Duly noted...I was checking out the histories earlier. In my own narrative I think the High Elves might be too prickly to keep..

I also had this:
Forsaken: Undead Human, Undead Elf, Alteraci Human, Blood Elf

Sentinels: Night Elf, Dark Troll, Furbolg, Cenarius' Children

On the first italicized...that word "forsaken" I just never liked it. I think I can see where you're at with it..with elves and humans, living and undead...but...
On the 2nd italicized..."sentinel" does work...but likely differently from your perspective. I'm not seeing a faction as I see another potential subclass that may bridge factions.

[Ardenaso]

Duly noted...I was checking out the histories earlier. In my own narrative I think the High Elves might be too prickly to keep.. On the first italicized...that word "forsaken" I just never liked it. I think I can see where you're at with it..with elves and humans, living and undead...but...
On the 2nd italicized..."sentinel" does work...but likely differently from your perspective. I'm not seeing a faction as I see another potential subclass that may bridge factions.

even with Garithos' racism and attempts to wipe out the Blood Elves there were still High Elves working with the Alliance of Lordaeron led by Jennalla Deemspring; her survivors may have joined the Scarlet Crusade (there's two dead High Elves in the hero statues in the Scarlet Monastery: Arellas Fireleaf and Fellari Swiftwind)

I just thought Forsaken would be the umbrella term for Sylvanas' new order when she claimed Lordaeron

[Shadowferal]

I just thought Forsaken would be the umbrella term for Sylvanas' new order when she claimed Lordaeron

Well, my narrative would use "Forsaken" for playable races that no one might play...such as murloc; gorloc; saurok...(especially the "Skumblade" tribe whose filthmongers cultivate roaches, rotting meat, sewage...)

But I'd have to fit them in a narrative that could see them as "playable" to begin with.
hmm..a challenge. Yes, I see at least murlocs could fit...