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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Every player group is not relevant in every level of content. You aslo didn't ask me anything but made a statement. I don't see you advocating that Mythic Raids are able to be done by players that only play 2-3 times a month. That would be silly. There isn't a problem with the way things are designed with a basic level for everyone and a advance level for some.

    The only thing that is lacking a real advance level is world content but I think it is fine if there isn't always such a thing. The occasional Mage Tower or Twisting Corridors in Torghast are good to fill that need for the "hardcore" that want "challenging" world/solo content. Blizzard just needs to change it up and get a seasonal aspect going to get it fresh.
    I was going to say this.

    Not all players groups are relevant to all player content.

    There are contents made to hardcore players.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Idk about that tbh. Usually there's clearly 1 person bringing the rest down. Dps with 0 interrupts, dps doing tank lvl dps, healer not able to heal the unavoidable dmg or just barely able to heal it causing dps to have lower their own dps to mitigate it, tank pulling too slowly, healer straight up doing 0 dps. Can be many factors but usually in a failed key 15 and below its someone hard dragging the group down.
    The problem is that no one “wants” to be the culprit and it all ends in a mess of toxicity.

    I basically passed from “godly healer” to “please delete your account” in a blink of a dungeon.

    It’s really hard in pug to improve yourself because everyone thinks it’s some other’s issue.

    M+ are not meant to be pugged, that’s basically why I completely stopped doing party content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Every player group is not relevant in every level of content. You aslo didn't ask me anything but made a statement. I don't see you advocating that Mythic Raids are able to be done by players that only play 2-3 times a month. That would be silly. There isn't a problem with the way things are designed with a basic level for everyone and a advance level for some.

    The only thing that is lacking a real advance level is world content but I think it is fine if there isn't always such a thing. The occasional Mage Tower or Twisting Corridors in Torghast are good to fill that need for the "hardcore" that want "challenging" world/solo content. Blizzard just needs to change it up and get a seasonal aspect going to get it fresh.
    They are not good because they don’t provide any gear advancement.

    I won’t waste any of my precious spare time to do solo content with zero meaningful rewards. This is not Dark Souls where you do the challenge for the sole pleasure of the challenge itself.

  3. #183
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    They are not good because they don’t provide any gear advancement.
    Allowing people to get Heroic raid gear from solo content would really screw up the game. Even now LFR is struggling to offer meaningful rewards for its target audience because you can out gear it with Cypher Research gear. Blizzard would need to change a lot about the core systems if it moves to a loot shower style of game. Which is essentially what it would become.

    At most I could see a solo challenge counting towards the Great Vault assuming Blizzard continues that system for the next expansion (and the would be foolish not to).
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Seeing how many people use the mission table at some point isn't the same as being able to see how many people do M+ weekly.

    Also you get free exp boosts from increasing your renown so that doesn't mean much.
    I mean, most people who do M+ do it for loot, not because they particularly enjoy it. You'd see M+ participation drop at least 80% if it wasn't required for raiding.

    The proof on this is easy, just loot at classic/tbclassic or any expansion before badges/m+ existed when dungeons were dead after the first week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    I'd be fine with that if they also added a mechanism (maybe a "use" option with a confirmation box) to manually downgrade keys. In my community, we have three groups of people doing M+: those pushing 18s at this point with the goal of getting the 20s on time, those wanting 15s for their vault loot, and those running 7's during the Mythic weekly event for their heroic raid loot. Sometimes only the first group has a key to offer, so we intentionally drop the key level to make it more competitive for the lower group. I wouldn't want someone inadvertently getting stuck with a key that they simply had no hope of finishing.
    This has existed for quite a while. How many years ago did you quit playing?
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Allowing people to get Heroic raid gear from solo content would really screw up the game. Even now LFR is struggling to offer meaningful rewards for its target audience because you can out gear it with Cypher Research gear. Blizzard would need to change a lot about the core systems if it moves to a loot shower style of game. Which is essentially what it would become.

    At most I could see a solo challenge counting towards the Great Vault assuming Blizzard continues that system for the next expansion (and the would be foolish not to).
    The vault would not be a solution because it would be ONE piece per week, you can have duplicates and slots are 18. I understand WoW cannot be Diablo 3, but progression has also to have a certain pace, that can’t be one piece per week.

    Please notice that I’m not talking about ilvl per se, people are too focused on that while the main issue about ow content is that the content dies after one-two months after a major patch and then you’re left 3-4 months with nothing else to do.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Also the timer needs to stay. People really need to get off the whole "TIMER BAD GUYS." It's just an irrational fixation at this point.
    Eh. Timers are bad, but there is no better solution for dungeons. It can be both. There is nothing wrong with M+, no need to remove the timer, no easy or obvious changes to make. But they're also dumb and lead to a lot of dumb stuff. Most of that "dumb stuff" is the community choosing to be dumb and building tools to help the community be dumb.

    There are a lot of routes that "everyone" uses that are absolutely slow/slower but are used because some streamer or MDI guy did it. It's faster for that level of player, but is batshit insane on a 15. That sort of thing. "We have to do the Wo-Ardenweld skip on this 15 DOS because timer" is dumb and wrong when on a 15 with below average DPS you can just straight pull Hakkar side with no skips and easily make the timer. In fact, doing those wo skips and other nonsense usually bricks keys (in 15/16 pugs). Even with 2700-2800 score players.

    Without "the timer" people would be more willing to try straight pulling the dungeon and be like "oh, we 2 chested it because we didnt wipe 4 times on skips" instead of "we barely made 1 chest, I better do this Wo route even HARDER next time so we can get more time".

    It isn't the timer's fault, but "timers are dumb" is still an acceptable explanation.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Eh. Timers are bad, but there is no better solution for dungeons. It can be both. There is nothing wrong with M+, no need to remove the timer, no easy or obvious changes to make. But they're also dumb and lead to a lot of dumb stuff. Most of that "dumb stuff" is the community choosing to be dumb and building tools to help the community be dumb.

    There are a lot of routes that "everyone" uses that are absolutely slow/slower but are used because some streamer or MDI guy did it. It's faster for that level of player, but is batshit insane on a 15. That sort of thing. "We have to do the Wo-Ardenweld skip on this 15 DOS because timer" is dumb and wrong when on a 15 with below average DPS you can just straight pull Hakkar side with no skips and easily make the timer. In fact, doing those wo skips and other nonsense usually bricks keys (in 15/16 pugs). Even with 2700-2800 score players.

    Without "the timer" people would be more willing to try straight pulling the dungeon and be like "oh, we 2 chested it because we didnt wipe 4 times on skips" instead of "we barely made 1 chest, I better do this Wo route even HARDER next time so we can get more time".

    It isn't the timer's fault, but "timers are dumb" is still an acceptable explanation.
    Also, oddly enough, the only times I got 5 diamonds in Torghast were the ones where I completely didn’t care about the timer and wiped almost everything. So the game CAN reward something else but time if “it wants”.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    The problem is that no one “wants” to be the culprit and it all ends in a mess of toxicity.

    I basically passed from “godly healer” to “please delete your account” in a blink of a dungeon.

    It’s really hard in pug to improve yourself because everyone thinks it’s some other’s issue.

    M+ are not meant to be pugged, that’s basically why I completely stopped doing party content.
    If you're struggling that badly in PUGs, there's an 85% chance you're a big part of the issue.

    I PUG'd KSM as SV in BFA for multiple seasons, for example, when SV was absolutely the worst spec in the game for M+. Got booted a few times for being SV, declined a lot, but who cares. It is absolutely easy to time 15s and 16s, while PUGing
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Eh. Timers are bad, but there is no better solution for dungeons. It can be both. There is nothing wrong with M+, no need to remove the timer, no easy or obvious changes to make. But they're also dumb and lead to a lot of dumb stuff. Most of that "dumb stuff" is the community choosing to be dumb and building tools to help the community be dumb.

    There are a lot of routes that "everyone" uses that are absolutely slow/slower but are used because some streamer or MDI guy did it. It's faster for that level of player, but is batshit insane on a 15. That sort of thing. "We have to do the Wo-Ardenweld skip on this 15 DOS because timer" is dumb and wrong when on a 15 with below average DPS you can just straight pull Hakkar side with no skips and easily make the timer. In fact, doing those wo skips and other nonsense usually bricks keys (in 15/16 pugs). Even with 2700-2800 score players.

    Without "the timer" people would be more willing to try straight pulling the dungeon and be like "oh, we 2 chested it because we didnt wipe 4 times on skips" instead of "we barely made 1 chest, I better do this Wo route even HARDER next time so we can get more time".

    It isn't the timer's fault, but "timers are dumb" is still an acceptable explanation.
    Timers aren't "bad". It's there to establish the times when you should be done to deserve 1, 2, or 3 chest. It's no different than enrages on boss, and I don't see anyone saying "enrages are dumb / bad."

    As to the rest, people engaging in degenerate behaviour is a, hello, player problem. If the timer didn't exist, whatever mechanism in its place would create this degenerate behaviour, and the community would blame it on that.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    I mean, most people who do M+ do it for loot, not because they particularly enjoy it. You'd see M+ participation drop at least 80% if it wasn't required for raiding.
    this always seemed such a weird argument to me, since almost everything in wow is gear driven... if raids stop giving gear you would see the participation drop to ground too...

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    If you're struggling that badly in PUGs, there's an 85% chance you're a big part of the issue.

    I PUG'd KSM as SV in BFA for multiple seasons, for example, when SV was absolutely the worst spec in the game for M+. Got booted a few times for being SV, declined a lot, but who cares. It is absolutely easy to time 15s and 16s, while PUGing
    In S1 it was “less easy”. But apart from that, I was not struggling, main issue was at usual find or form groups.

    Also, since pugs are pugs, it’s really difficult to tell for sure why the group is struggling. For my experience is usually dps not dpsing or dying to mechanics, probably for the dps is usually healer not healing and the tank usually blame everyone else.

    But fail is not a problem… if after 3 minutes you can try again in another dungeon with other people. Unfortunately this is not the case in M+, that’s one of the reason I completely abandon them and I won’t EVER be back unless there’s an LFG automated option.

  12. #192
    Timer probably should be like an affix once you hit a certain key level. So you can do to a +5 with no timer. Then it's a fairly loose timer but there to 10. Tightens up a bit around 15. Becomes hard af at 20. The numbers I am using here are just an example, but it works the timer into the challenge gradually over the course of pushing harder and instead of it just being a base line of the activity.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Every player group is not relevant in every level of content.
    The difference you ignore is that high level players also have all the content low level players have. It looks quite different the other way around. Blizzard designs the game for a few very good players because only they see all the content. I do not talk about mythic raids for everyone. I talk about different difficulty levels with gearing progression. Raw typical rpg gameplay without asking for mythic raids for ultracasuals. You know, one of the major gameplay components in MMORPGs is gearing progression. Currently, only top tier players have gearing progression. Low level players have world quests with welfare epics.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-04-14 at 08:49 PM.

  14. #194
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Please notice that I’m not talking about ilvl per se, people are too focused on that while the main issue about ow content is that the content dies after one-two months after a major patch and then you’re left 3-4 months with nothing else to do.
    You stated relevant rewards right? So that means item level progression. You can already get Mythic +8/9 end of dungeon item level from Cypher Research so if Blizzard had a solo/world challenge currently it would have to award higher then that. But if it doesn't progressively get better then it is a one time reward that will be quickly made irrelevant.

    Why do you need more then one piece a week if you are never doing content that requires those pieces? If you get more then one a week you risk changing how all the group content is done much the same way M+ changed the importance of Raids for loot. Or you just add another item level gap required between content levels to set things apart.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    The difference you ignore is that high level players also have all the content low level players have.
    Well, duh. If you do the highest level of content in game you have all the content available to you. If you do the lowest level of content in a game you won't have all the content available to you. That isn't a problem that needs fixing. Every player does not need access to every reward or item level. We've had this conversation before but you don't need to progress your character beyond the power you need for the content you do.

    If you choose to only do X content you don't need anymore gear unless you want to go beyond that content to the next level. Considering you can get M+ 8/9 without being a top tier player it just shows that the game has gear progression beyond what you are stating. Why exaggerate something that just undermines whatever point you are trying to make?

    If you aren't satisfied with "welfare" epics then do better content. Shocking, right? Don't demand the game allows you to play 2-3 times a month and have gear progression. Play more. Play the other content and progress your character.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    That's what low level keys are for. +2-5s are basically M0s now everyone has a base of 230+ iLvl.
    Hell, i leveled a lock and have a 241 ilvl after 12 hours /played at 60

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    The problem is that no one “wants” to be the culprit and it all ends in a mess of toxicity.

    I basically passed from “godly healer” to “please delete your account” in a blink of a dungeon.

    It’s really hard in pug to improve yourself because everyone thinks it’s some other’s issue.

    M+ are not meant to be pugged, that’s basically why I completely stopped doing party content.

    - - - Updated - - -


    They are not good because they don’t provide any gear advancement.

    I won’t waste any of my precious spare time to do solo content with zero meaningful rewards. This is not Dark Souls where you do the challenge for the sole pleasure of the challenge itself.
    M+ is very easily pugable,from low to high level. I just recently came back,jumped on low key trains to get out of boosted greens, then started pushing my own key for progress and higher gear level. In a month of casual play (casual does not equal bad,you people need to learn the terms) i was able to get ksm. While pugging in off hours of the night.

    Stop pretending like anything is stopping you besides yourself. And you are a healer on top of that, for whom it is poss easy to get into groups.

    @OP the timer does not exist in m+ for a group geared and skilled for it. Its only there to punish failure like deaths and overpulls. You can literally pull 1 mob pack at a time and finish the dungeon on time. Ya'll are out here acting like you have to do giant pulls to time things, seems like youve never been in an actual high key.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    They have this. Tahsup, broker npc standing to the right of the Great vault. You can have him manually downgrade your key.
    True, but it's less convenient than being able to drop it at the dungeon. They could even drop the key initially but then give you a key of the previous level upon completion after the timer to encourage people to finish M+ runs and allow easy dropping at the dungeon while circumventing the concerns about constant dungeon resets if a pull goes bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    This has existed for quite a while. How many years ago did you quit playing?
    First time I quit playing was in Cata. Last time I quit was in Legion. I've been subbed continuously from 7.3.5 onward. I started running Mythic+ in BfA. And we regularly drop keys by starting the dungeon, running out, and resetting. If they stopped downgrading a key when you start a dungeon, which is what we were talking about, I'd want a way to drop the key at the dungeon entrance, as there is now, instead of requiring people to go all the way back to Oribos (or the next expansion capitol), which would be required if they removed keys dropping in value during the run and didn't replace it with something else.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well, duh. If you do the highest level of content in game you have all the content available to you.
    Why? Why should a casual gamer not see all the content and have gearing progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you do the lowest level of content in a game you won't have all the content available to you.
    I ask again: Why? Only because you play the most difficult raids? Why should you have access to more content than a casual gamer who pays the same subs?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you choose to only do X content you don't need anymore gear unless you want to go beyond that content to the next level. Considering you can get M+ 8/9 without being a top tier player it just shows that the game has gear progression beyond what you are stating. Why exaggerate something that just undermines whatever point you are trying to make?
    My point is that the developers are elitst. They cater the game to a few, and only allow them access to the gameplay of a typical RPG. As i said, only top level players have gearing progression. Anyone who is not playing in premade groups gets a few welfare epics from world quests, whichs gameplay are neither compelling nor even remotely something comparable to gearing progression, as they drop a few welfare epics you need for nothing. While there is absolutely no reason not to add a progression system to every component seperately. As players like to focus on single gameplay components.

    Blizzard should split progression pathes. There are actually many mythic+ players that would want to skip questing. As there are many questing players that would like to never play dungeons. As like there are mythic+ players who never would like to play raids. As like there are raiders who would never want to play questing. As like there are pvp players who do not want to do any pve. PVP and pve already are split progression pathes. Into matchmade pvp and rated pvp. There also should be completely seperate progression pathes in world content, in solo instanced content and small group gameplay, in matchmade dungeons. And not just in premade group raids and mythic+ gameplay.

    Different progression pathes would cater way more to the players than blizzard limiting some content to a few and the most dumb gameplay where you send turtles into the water over and over for a few welfare epics to many. And nothing inbetween.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you aren't satisfied with "welfare" epics then do better content. Shocking, right? Don't demand the game allows you to play 2-3 times a month and have gear progression. Play more. Play the other content and progress your character.
    I give a shit about welfare epics. I want gearing progression. Where the gear you get from world quests difficulty 1 is needed for world quest difficulty 2. Nothing is more useless than gear you need for nothing. Also "better content" sounds like as if you really want to tell me dungeons are "better" than world gameplay, while they are simply different possible pathes. It is nothing but your bias which shows, if you think dungeon gameplay or raid gameplay is superior to gameplay in the world, which could be made much better than blizzard does nowadays.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You know, once blizzard had an idea called "Path of the Titans". I wonder if they planned that to be different progression pathes. If they just would have taken that path, WoW would adress way more players nowadays.

    The idea to split progression pathes would be that you could decide for your character at endgame level what component you would want to focus on.

    As like "The path of the Lone Wolf", which plays in the open world, which choses to progress mainly using questing content and different difficulties in the open world, and especially catered instanced content with many difficulty levels and own gearing progression.

    As like "The path of the Soldier", which plays in pvp battlegrounds, also with full progression and systems for your gamestyle. As like "The path of the gladiator", which plays in pvp arena. As like "The path of the raider" which plays, who wonders, in raids. With a full range of progression systems. Well, and as like "The path of the dungeonwalker", which plays in dungeons.

    You could chose one or more pathes if you liked, but all of those pathes would offer different gearing pathes with rewards that only would be really useful for the component you play. A player that would want to play all components would have to progress in all of the components on its own. Someone who would focus on one path only would still see the lore in his gameplay. The end boss would die in questing content, dungeons and raids. If you chose only one path, you still would see the final plot.

    All that would be a way better solution than blizzard luring everyone into every of their components, while the players like to specialize.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-04-14 at 09:05 PM.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    I mean, most people who do M+ do it for loot, not because they particularly enjoy it. You'd see M+ participation drop at least 80% if it wasn't required for raiding.

    The proof on this is easy, just loot at classic/tbclassic or any expansion before badges/m+ existed when dungeons were dead after the first week.
    Feelings isn't an argument.

    If your argument was actually true, no one would bother doing anything past 15s, since ilvl caps at that. Like, you guys realize that right?

  20. #200
    Nah, they should rework fortified and tyrannical tho.

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