Page 11 of 46 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
21
... LastLast
  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Nah, they should rework fortified and tyrannical tho.
    just remove them and balance it somewhere in-between imo

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Nah, they should rework fortified and tyrannical tho.
    They need to do something about Tyrannical. With Fort, the likelihood of wiping to trash is much higher and it's generally way more stressful on the tank but you can mostly brute force the bosses and finish the key. With Tyr, you end up bricking a key because one or two players are simply incapable of performing a boss mechanic. (See: Literally any fucking boss in DoS) You can spend time explaining it to these people and they'll just keep taking it to the chin. It's actually getting worse now that people have 4-sets and everything because it's even easier to brute force a Fort key... making the average player even more resilient against learning encounters. It's very frustrating to have a 40+ minute key bricked because a single player in your group is functionally incapable of dodging or performing a required mechanic.

  3. #203
    The Lightbringer theostrichsays's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    In my douche canoe crossing the Delaware.
    Posts
    3,649
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    They need to do something about Tyrannical. With Fort, the likelihood of wiping to trash is much higher and it's generally way more stressful on the tank but you can mostly brute force the bosses and finish the key. With Tyr, you end up bricking a key because one or two players are simply incapable of performing a boss mechanic. (See: Literally any fucking boss in DoS) You can spend time explaining it to these people and they'll just keep taking it to the chin. It's actually getting worse now that people have 4-sets and everything because it's even easier to brute force a Fort key... making the average player even more resilient against learning encounters. It's very frustrating to have a 40+ minute key bricked because a single player in your group is functionally incapable of dodging or performing a required mechanic.
    Sanguine Depths is another that has turned into a shit show with 4 pieces, in my experience. Had an 18 and then a 16 bricked with pugs this week. Both times, dps wouldn't move out with castigate at all, and killed the other dps and then raged at healer for not healing them through it, when "other healers had no problems" which I find fairly doubtful or just a simple "shit healer" and /leave group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelhander View Post
    Thank you for mansplaining how opinions work.
    Also you're wrong, the people who agree with you are wrong, and you're probably ugly.
    Ever been so angry at everyone on the internet you tell a woman she is mansplaining?

  4. #204
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    15,900
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Why? Why should a casual gamer not see all the content and have gearing progression?
    Because they are choosing not to do it? This isn't about content either because you are talking about gear progression which is item levels.

    Path of the Titans was nothing like you suggest it could have been. It was simply more talents similar to what Artifact weapons were in Legion. The developers are not elitist. They don't develop just for one group of people. Just because they don't give super casuals like yourself access to Mythic Raid gear doesn't mean then are ignoring you.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Path of the Titans was nothing like you suggest it could have been. It was simply more talents similar to what Artifact weapons were in Legion. The developers are not elitist. They don't develop just for one group of people. Just because they don't give super casuals like yourself access to Mythic Raid gear doesn't mean then are ignoring you.
    Actually they give specific gameplay to one group of players only, and that is gearing progression to mythic+ players and premade group raiders.

    I give a shit about mythic gear. I want gear for the sole reason to progress. That is what gear actually is meant for. You and the devs want to force players into mythic+ and premade group raids to become able to have some basic gameplay components from rpgs like simple gearing progression. Which is one of the biggest problems WoW currently has.

    The developers are both elitist and incompetent. Incompetent to see they actually design the game for a few, and exclude everyone else from RPG gameplay. They are that stubborn with their "vision" they cannot even see they lose millions of players every single expac in short time. They are that stubborn they would rather destroy the game than to adapt to what their players want.

    And then we have that game director, that talks in interviews about removing character power from systems like covenants. I beg your pardon.. but how disconnected from his playerbase, how disconnected from basic principles of RPG game design must someone be, if he really thinks about making the most played components of his game even more unrewarding?

    In what other spheres of existence is Mr. Hazzikostas than hanging around in his mythic+ design room while he talks about encounter design of mythic raid bosses, rather than creating compelling and rewarding gameplay for many? In what ivory tower does that bad joke of a game director sit when he really thinks he can sell hundreds of hours of gametime by limiting rewards to cosmetics only? Where does Hazzikostas get the idea from that gearing progression is only for mythic+ players and raiders?

    Does he really think he can lure players into his pathetic relentless meritocracy by only giving basic RPG gameplay from the least accessible versions of his content? Didn't he learn from the past that players rather would quit than play components they need to put too much commitment into?
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-04-14 at 11:47 PM.

  6. #206
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    15,900
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Actually they give gameplay to one group of players only, and that is gearing progression to mythic+ players and premade group raiders.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it does not exist. There is gameplay outside of M+ and "premade" raiders. The amusing part of your complaints is that the game has more progression for non-raiders and non-M+ then ever before. And yet somehow you ignore all of that because anything but the best is "welfare". Then you sling insults at the developers.

    It also ignores how the players you want catered to don't choose to do content that will get them progression you claim they want. Weird, right? You want the progression of others simply because you can't get it without doing that content. Instead of being content with the progression of your content.

    Instead of engaging in that higher content you rage about developers not knowing basic RPG principles, or being elitists, or whatever else you claim. All because you won't choose to do the content that exists that will reward you with what you want.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-04-14 at 11:53 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it does not exist. There is gameplay outside of M+ and "premade" raiders. The amusing part of your complaints is that the game has more progression for non-raiders and non-M+ then ever before. And yet somehow you ignore all of that because anything but the best is "welfare".
    The developers themself call items that are not used for progression or items you get from doing nothing "welfare epics" *1). Actually, gearing progression means, you need gear to master a higher difficulty level of the content you play. That does not exist in any content outside of mythic+ (which has 15 difficulty levels) and outside of premade group raids (which has 3 difficulty levels, normal, heroic and mythic). Normal and heroic dungeons are simply two levels, which are already outdated for gear rewards in current gameplay, and where you simply get the better welfare epics from world quests by opening chests. So, there also is no real progression. And in world content you do not need better gear to become able to beat higher difficulties of the world content itself.

    Either you do not really understand what i talk about, or you simply do not want to understand what i talk about, and rather like to act as if i want mythic gear for nothing. Which is what you always talk about when someone talks about proper gearing progression for gameplay outside of the premade group realm.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then you sling insults at the developers.
    Not really. Calling someone who is incompetent incompetent is no insult but simply the truth. Calling a game director for a broad audience game who entirely focuses on hard raids and mythic+ dungeons actually is not just incompetent, but also ignorant for everything outside of his own bias about what the game should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You want everything with out having to do the content.
    Oh that again. No, i actually want the players to play for their rewards. And even more important: I want those rewards to be useful. Contrary what you try to construct out of this. Do you actually do that on purpose or do you really not understand what i talk about? If, just tell me. I can tell you what "gearing progression" means even more detailed. I mean, as i already told you in detail in many other posts, yet your last resort always seems to be "U ONLY WANT TE FREE EPICS FOR DOIN NUTTIN!!!11!" ( i imagine you with a red angerful head here, screaming ), while i really talk about a real progression system for all kind of players.

    *1) Source for welfare epics:

    https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kaplan about Welfare Epics
    At the second Blizzard Entertainment Conference in 2007, the Lead Content
    Designer of World of Warcraft (WoW), Jeff Kaplan, described recently added
    player-versus-player (PvP) rewards as ‘‘welfare epics,’’ which set off a firestorm
    of controversy about the reward structure in WoW (Tobold, 2007). Kaplan, better
    known by his screen name Tigole, was a prominent member of one of the most notable raiding guilds in EverQuest, Legacy of Steel, before joining Blizzard
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-04-15 at 12:19 AM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by tonicsargeras View Post
    ...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

    We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

    For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

    Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.
    Thank you, but no. I like it the way it is.

  9. #209
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    15,900
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    The developers themself call items that are not used for progression or items you get from doing nothing "welfare epics"
    They call them welfare because of the joke from Blizzcon that the playerbase echoed at the time. You could get epics from Arena easier then from raids thus they were "welfare". You don't need to link to a research paper on the term. Lol. The game has a real progression system for all kind of players but for some of those players it stops at a lower item level then the rest.

    There is no amount of game design that can give an equal progression for people that only play 2 to 3 times a month. So right off the bat you ignore the earlier group you were saying should have access to M+, right? Why exclude now that you've moved the goal posts? WoW was never a broad audience game even though it attracted one. It was designed to be a more casual version of Everquest at the time. Since Vanilla the game has given more things for every group of player to achieve. But that isn't good enough for you unless every group has equal progress rather then different limits of progression.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Timers aren't "bad". It's there to establish the times when you should be done to deserve 1, 2, or 3 chest. It's no different than enrages on boss, and I don't see anyone saying "enrages are dumb / bad."

    As to the rest, people engaging in degenerate behaviour is a, hello, player problem. If the timer didn't exist, whatever mechanism in its place would create this degenerate behaviour, and the community would blame it on that.
    If there was a time-damage dealt ratio instead, there would not be a perverse incentive to find the "easiest" pulls. Someone could pull the whole dungeon and kill it faster per hp point of what they killed, for example.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    this always seemed such a weird argument to me, since almost everything in wow is gear driven... if raids stop giving gear you would see the participation drop to ground too...
    You'd see people unsub if raids stopped giving gear. They're subbed to raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Feelings isn't an argument.

    If your argument was actually true, no one would bother doing anything past 15s, since ilvl caps at that. Like, you guys realize that right?
    Correct, almost no one pushes past 15s. Attempting a 17 puts you in the top 1%.

    There's also all the data from when Bliz upped it from 10 to 15 and all the players who only ever did 10s starting doing 15s.

    Despite your fee fees of how much you love M+, the data proves it is a chore that is almost universally disliked.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Raider.io has 6,174,280 ranks on its leaderboard for Season 3. Even if you discount duplicates, errors, and what not that is still a lot of activity for something you claim any metric shows as a disaster. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a failure at every level.
    Does raider.io even show that stuff for people who don't have the addon?

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Despite your fee fees of how much you love M+, the data proves it is a chore that is almost universally disliked.
    That's far from evident here.

    The only thing the data you cite shows is that people are unlikely to do more challenging content if it doesn't come with an increase in rewards, too. That doesn't mean they "dislike" the parts where that equation still holds true; it only means that they dislike it when the equation breaks down.

    There's no reason to do higher than m+15 other than challenge - and so most people don't do it. Whether or not that means they hate doing M+15s and lower where they DO get better rewards is a different question, and requires different data to investigate.

  13. #213
    High Overlord zhorteye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Azeroth
    Posts
    110
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Blizzard could always assign some rating system to M+ similar to Torgahst. Kill all the mobs for extra points. Complete the dungeon quickly for extra points. Penalize score based on deaths. Scale the score based on the key level. Give bonuses for certain amounts of percentage of the total time in combat or having the group stay above 50% health for a certain amount of time in combat or for interrupting a certain percentage of casts, for taking less than X avoidable damage, etc. There are plenty of metrics that could be applied beyond just "Finished this dungeon this quickly."



    I would love to see what a M+ Shadow Labs would look like. What timer would you even assign to something like that?



    What do you mean that there's no way to track who engages with the mission table? There are literally achievements for that. Wowhead's achievement tracking shows 64% of profiles have run 100 missions. Additionally, 16% of profiles have three adventurers at level 60. Meanwhile, 5% of profiles have Shadowlands Keystone Master Season Three, and 19% earned Keystone Master in Season Two. Keystone Master for Season Two was only slightly more successful than leveling adventurers, by these metrics.
    Shadowlabs is reliably doable by a coordinated group in 40 minutes.. so i would put that as the timer.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Correct, almost no one pushes past 15s. Attempting a 17 puts you in the top 1%.

    There's also all the data from when Bliz upped it from 10 to 15 and all the players who only ever did 10s starting doing 15s.

    Despite your fee fees of how much you love M+, the data proves it is a chore that is almost universally disliked.
    Ah yes, a sample size of...wait, what was it

    oh yes, 762k unique players timing 15s and above is clearly "disliked".

    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...rboards-strict

    Because timing 15s is definitely *not* pushing past that right? Mind you, there's no sorting on raider.io to even check how many people are doing 17s, so it's pretty weird to claim you know that somehow, nor did Blizzard give data about how many people moved from doing 10s to 15s. So you're creating data that doesn't exist anyway.

    You're making a nonsensical argument of "Gear is the only motivation to do it" when gear and mounts are the motivation behind nearly all of WoW's endgame content. You're complaining that the endgame is the endgame basically, which is absolutely silly. If you hate M+, don't do it. Don't demand its changed to suit your needs when its been one of the most popular features since it was added to the game.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by theostrichsays View Post
    Sanguine Depths is another that has turned into a shit show with 4 pieces, in my experience. Had an 18 and then a 16 bricked with pugs this week. Both times, dps wouldn't move out with castigate at all, and killed the other dps and then raged at healer for not healing them through it, when "other healers had no problems" which I find fairly doubtful or just a simple "shit healer" and /leave group.
    /cast Feign Death

    What's castigate?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Ah yes, a sample size of...wait, what was it

    oh yes, 762k unique players timing 15s and above is clearly "disliked".

    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...rboards-strict

    Because timing 15s is definitely *not* pushing past that right? Mind you, there's no sorting on raider.io to even check how many people are doing 17s, so it's pretty weird to claim you know that somehow, nor did Blizzard give data about how many people moved from doing 10s to 15s. So you're creating data that doesn't exist anyway.

    You're making a nonsensical argument of "Gear is the only motivation to do it" when gear and mounts are the motivation behind nearly all of WoW's endgame content. You're complaining that the endgame is the endgame basically, which is absolutely silly. If you hate M+, don't do it. Don't demand its changed to suit your needs when its been one of the most popular features since it was added to the game.
    For those who can't read...

    15s
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=15
    Sample size: 701,163 - Raider io

    15s and up
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
    Sample size: 762,237 - Raider io


    762,237
    - 701,163
    -----------
    61,074
    == 8%


    So less than 10% of people who can even time a 15 bother ever doing higher than a 15.

    All mythic levels
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
    Sample size: 1,812,072

    61,074 == 3.3%


    Less than 4% of people who run any key ever do higher than a 15.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    There's no reason to do higher than m+15 other than challenge - and so most people don't do it.
    For those like this guy who quit a while ago, there are rewards for each individual 20, as well as averaging all 20s (3k score).

    Most people (96.7%) don't bother, because they're only doing any keys for the weekly chest to boost their raid performance.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    They need to do something about Tyrannical. With Fort, the likelihood of wiping to trash is much higher and it's generally way more stressful on the tank but you can mostly brute force the bosses and finish the key. With Tyr, you end up bricking a key because one or two players are simply incapable of performing a boss mechanic. (See: Literally any fucking boss in DoS) You can spend time explaining it to these people and they'll just keep taking it to the chin. It's actually getting worse now that people have 4-sets and everything because it's even easier to brute force a Fort key... making the average player even more resilient against learning encounters. It's very frustrating to have a 40+ minute key bricked because a single player in your group is functionally incapable of dodging or performing a required mechanic.
    What’s funny is this is exactly what every key would be if Blizzard ever removed the timer from mythic+ and just retuned it to make non-completion the failure not non-timing.

    Wall bosses with no hope to kill for many players.

    And yet it gets championed like it would be easier and more accessible without the stress of a timer.

  17. #217
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Posts
    2,097
    First, I want to toss out an old complaint about the "X is easy" crowd. Easy and difficult are subjective terms, and what you may find easy, others may find difficult. I agree that in general, there are some things we can say are objectively easy, like counting to 5, but even then, there are some people who might have difficulty counting anything, for various reasons.

    Second, one of the arguments raised in favor of timed content is that, in the absence of a countdown, players would game the system by waiting on long cooldowns before every pack, trivializing the content and slowing the game down. To that I say...have you met WoW players? They won't slow down if their life depended on it. Long before we had any sort of serious timed content, the "gogogo" crowd was already in full throat, and timer or no timer, no one is waiting out cooldowns for trash, it is just not happening. While I don't say it is impossible, I just don't see a lot of people doing that. It wasn't done in BC or Wrath, and I highly doubt that would change now.

    Third, and lastly, there is a practical real world benefit to not having timed content that lasts longer than 10-15 minutes; the ability to get up do something else for a few seconds. Now there is a fair argument there; if someone wants to do a key, and a high one at that, then maybe plan on being tied up for 30-45 minutes, which isn't really a long time in the grand scheme of things. However, what if more people did keys simply because they knew that, if they had to afk bio or the dog wet the rug or the kid threw up, they could take 5 minutes to take care of that. But this would really just be QoL...I mean, the system does seem to be working well, but perhaps more engagement would be a good thing. I think there might be room for both in the game, and the elitist attitude of "get good/casuals don't need gear/my experience>yours" doesn't make the game more fun. In my opinion.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    For those who can't read...

    15s
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=15
    Sample size: 701,163 - Raider io

    15s and up
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
    Sample size: 762,237 - Raider io


    762,237
    - 701,163
    -----------
    61,074
    == 8%


    So less than 10% of people who can even time a 15 bother ever doing higher than a 15.

    All mythic levels
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
    Sample size: 1,812,072

    61,074 == 3.3%


    Less than 4% of people who run any key ever do higher than a 15.
    So you're admitting your original percent was pulled out of nowhere?

    Cool. Again, you're still missing the fact that you have no way to actually prove if people are doing 15s out of enjoyment or not. Your entire argument is based on an assumption. Also you're comparing timed runs to timed runs, not timed 15s to untimed 15s and higher. Not all keys pushed higher than 15s are timed.

    Not to mention, people going for the mount have no reason to push higher than a 15 either.

  19. #219
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    15,900
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    timer or no timer, no one is waiting out cooldowns for trash, it is just not happening. While I don't say it is impossible, I just don't see a lot of people doing that. It wasn't done in BC or Wrath, and I highly doubt that would change now.
    Because there wasn't challenging trash in BC or Wrath. In Mythic+ you might have trash packs that are easier with cooldowns the same as now. If you can have things up for every pack then they become easier. The reason why you don't have them up every time now is because of the timer.

    Also doesn't your third point contradict your second point? If everyone is just going to play "go go go" anyways then getting up for a few seconds will be frowned upon even with out a timer, right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #220
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Posts
    2,097
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because there wasn't challenging trash in BC or Wrath. In Mythic+ you might have trash packs that are easier with cooldowns the same as now. If you can have things up for every pack then they become easier. The reason why you don't have them up every time now is because of the timer.

    Also doesn't your third point contradict your second point? If everyone is just going to play "go go go" anyways then getting up for a few seconds will be frowned upon even with out a timer, right?
    Challenging in Wrath? Absolutely not. In BC, there was challenge to some packs; if certain casters got off a heal or a fear it could cause a wipe, not to mention that heroic trash mobs could nearly one shot DPS, but due to the nature of the game at the time, packs were always focused down, as opposed to AoE, at least in the circles I ran in. When Wrath came along, aoe for trash was the norm.

    As for the "go go go"...yes, you are probably right about that; pugs are rarely patient, in any situation. But I was looking at it from two different points of view-I stand by the statement that I don't think the general M+ community would suddenly wait around for cooldowns, but as to the other pov, I was alluding to the fact that players who don't do M+ now might be more inclined if they were not up against a timer, but the group as a whole would have to be patient as well...which, as mentioned many times, can be done now by just not timing, and is a fair point if we're talking about gear acquisition and engagement.

    I'm a player that would prefer non-timed Mythics, because I'm old and slow, but I don't think they should change things for me; if the consensus wants timed content, I think it should stay as is. But I also think that the two modes could exist at the same time, different rewards, different achievements, etc. Say for example I beat, but don't time, all the dungeons at +15, I get some achievement and a mount. The person who does the same thing but times them all gets a cooler achievement and a fancier mount. These are just examples, I'm not saying I personally want or need these things, but it could be done.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •