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  1. #361
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    how about no? I play wow for raids and m+, why take away one of my joys?
    mighy aswel take out the weekly reset on raids, i mean just let me be braindead and farm gear, ya?
    That would be the best case scenario for raids for sure.

    But blizzard don’t want casuals in raids.. for some reason.

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  2. #362
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nobody said anything about removing M+.
    removing the timer might as well remove it

    M+ should not have a timer, period. If you complete dungeon, key goes up as simple as that.
    Would make the game way less fun for me and 7/8 of the people I do m+ with. We'd all unsub if they removed the timer, because it's part of the fun.
    That opens up possibilities to make more complex, non linear much better dungeons with actual mechanics not just braindead meatgrinders where bosses are meh, entire focus goes on trash and any sign of failure is immediate group disband.
    They can do that with the timer still in place though. There's literally nothing stopping them aside from them not wanting to do that.

    As someone who played high keys for ~1.5 expansions on 2 classes - yes. 11/10.
    I've done high keys for 2 expansions at this point, I'm playing with people who've done it for 3. They disagree with you as well.

    But people with severe lack of critical thinking can't imagine how to possibly make it better since it requires leaving comfort zone.
    They just disagree with you on what "better" is. That's all.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

    Dungeons are just approached a bit differently and whether you like it or not enrage timers are pseudo timers anyway. All of the challenging content in FF14 has hard enrage timers
    Soft/hard enrages on bosses are absolutely fine design, arbitrary timer on entire dungeon that decides if your key is dead or not - isn't. There is a fundamental difference between these two things. Especially because you can't try again if you fail - another big problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    removing the timer might as well remove it

    Would make the game way less fun for me and 7/8 of the people I do m+ with. We'd all unsub if they removed the timer, because it's part of the fun.
    You will unsub sooner or later the moment you realize doing the same dungeons with constricted design is actually boring and repetitive. Took me 3-4 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    They can do that with the timer still in place though. There's literally nothing stopping them aside from them not wanting to do that.
    There is plenty of things stoping them from doing that, money is one thing, because to actually design complex and interesting dungeon takes more time/money, and without timer, shallow design would be exposed rather quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    I've done high keys for 2 expansions at this point, I'm playing with people who've done it for 3. They disagree with you as well.
    That only means you have higher tolerance to repetitiveness. All my friends quit. Even pugs i gathered to special friend list tab over last expansion quit.
    Because there is not a single thing that timer makes better, there is no upside of having it, only downsides, with biggest of them = templated dungeons.

    And that shows with a difference of how early dungeons were made vs recent 3 expansions.
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  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Considering outdoor content is as good as normal raiding for most slots and close with the rest, along with the fact you can get all the essentials like double legos, conduits, and such without ever having to group up I'd have to disagree.
    The quality of the gear rewarded reflects nothing back on the quality of the content. What currently exists is very hollow. Almost nothing of importance happens in the world, it just simply exists to give people purples. And the few quest chains that exist, have next to no detail within them. What you see is what you get. Anything worth explaining that wasn't, is left for the player to question until a later patch, where you have to read in between the lines to put together what happened. That method is fine, used sparingly. However, this is the MAIN way Blizzard writes their stories. Even worse, if it doesn't get explained in a patch, it's revealed in a book and sold at a premium.

  5. #365
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Soft/hard enrages on bosses are absolutely fine design, arbitrary timer on entire dungeon that decides if your key is dead or not - isn't. There is a fundamental difference between these two things. Especially because you can't try again if you fail - another big problem.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Realistically keys being valuable isn't great design either, but you still don't need to take the timer away. I think most people whether you're pushing keys to their absolute limit or those that don't like timers would rather it be something different. A system where you can just do whatever key you want, whenever you want would remove the need for keys and if you aren't able to do a key in it's allotted time, does it really matter?

    To me the essence of people holding individual keys is probably the only sticking point I agree with. Having them being treated as a currency is probably the only flaw I see with them. Allowing people to do a 15 as many times as they want doesn't really hurt the game, and if you aren't geared enough to do the key in the allotted time, is it really that bad?

    If a system existed allowing us to do whatever/whenever we wanted I think most people would prefer that. Whether that means building up key levels through an interface system so that you can't jump into a 25 immediately. For key pushers it gets rid of the headache of trying to find a key, and for those who potentially get excluded or have to shop around for particular keys.. well you can just work on whatever key you want.. or farm whatever key you want.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Trash in M+ is interesting and engaging. The bosses are certainly not, outside of a select few that do become slightly interesting on high level tyranical keys. Planning around controlling trash in large pulls is the entire reason M+ is interesting not sure why you thought the bosses where.

    If M+ was just a high end boss mechanic fest except with 5 people instead of 20 that would be boring AF. People want varying styles of gameplay not everything to be the same.
    I feel the complete opposite and don't get why ppl love the timer while hating enrage mechanics, when the timer is exceeded in one scenario players rage and in the other the npcs rage.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  7. #367
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You will unsub sooner or later the moment you realize doing the same dungeons with constricted design is actually boring and repetitive. Took me 3-4 years.
    No, because I enjoy that. Same reason I replay games, or rewatch tv / movies. It's nice


    There is plenty of things stoping them from doing that, money is one thing, because to actually design complex and interesting dungeon takes more time/money, and without timer, shallow design would be exposed rather quickly.
    it is with the timer too, hence you complaining about it.



    That only means you have higher tolerance to repetitiveness. All my friends quit. Even pugs i gathered to special friend list tab over last expansion quit.
    Because there is not a single thing that timer makes better, there is no upside of having it, only downsides, with biggest of them = templated dungeons.

    And that shows with a difference of how early dungeons were made vs recent 3 expansions.
    I mean, dungeons became super linear in like.. TBC and Wrath. And most of them were linear in classic too. The only thing that changed is that people now actually have a reason to do dungeons, so they put in more effort.

    Take a look at the dungeons in wrath and tell me, honestly, that they're materially different than the ones we have now.
    Last edited by Temp name; 2022-04-19 at 06:28 PM.

  8. #368
    BTW did they said some thing about World Revamp ??

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    honestly the only reason I don't do mythic+ is the timer, I love hard dungeons but I cant stand being timed so I just don't do them. If they took out the timers and up the difficulty a bit to make up for it id be all over mythic+.
    sounds like you suck at the game and get frustrated when there's a timer lol

  10. #370
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezull View Post
    Excited to sit in a dungeon for 5 hours as we wait for lust on every pull in order to be able to complete the most challenging key level.
    I would rather do that than race a timer and bend over for the trash-skip gods.

    I would love to have punishingly challenging non-timed 5-man content.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  11. #371
    I m glad y'all self-proclamed "casuals" are not in charge of the game it would be so easily boring...

    What next once there is no lockout and no timer ? "Blizzard should cap key level at 5 so I dont feel bad some people are doing 15"

  12. #372
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    sounds like you suck at the game and get frustrated when there's a timer lol
    I don't think I've ever actually failed a timed run from the very few that I've done. I just don't enjoy timed content in any game ever, rather I can clear what ever timer there is never factors into it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    The quality of the gear rewarded reflects nothing back on the quality of the content. What currently exists is very hollow. Almost nothing of importance happens in the world, it just simply exists to give people purples. And the few quest chains that exist, have next to no detail within them. What you see is what you get. Anything worth explaining that wasn't, is left for the player to question until a later patch, where you have to read in between the lines to put together what happened. That method is fine, used sparingly. However, this is the MAIN way Blizzard writes their stories. Even worse, if it doesn't get explained in a patch, it's revealed in a book and sold at a premium.
    "Nothing of importance happens in open world" followed by "ignore the quest chains". Then "they don't explain anything" followed by "they'll do it later either ingame or in a book". You're contradicting yourself all over here. Add to the fact that it's not necessarily a bad thing for plot threads to be left open to be explored later. We met the kvaldir back in Wrath and didn't find anything more about them until Legion, for instance.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  14. #374
    I would rather prefer torghast way of death counts and soft enrages over timers. Being forced to rush feels bad. Also implement the ability to choose the any difficulty once you unlock it.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGamer030 View Post
    I do not need to be constructive in this thread, nor provide an argument. There is nothing here to actually debate. Your reasoning is flawed and thusly you have no argument.
    ↑ Epitome of Internet Logic

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    "Nothing of importance happens in open world" followed by "ignore the quest chains". Then "they don't explain anything" followed by "they'll do it later either ingame or in a book". You're contradicting yourself all over here. Add to the fact that it's not necessarily a bad thing for plot threads to be left open to be explored later. We met the kvaldir back in Wrath and didn't find anything more about them until Legion, for instance.


    No, actually I'm not. You're taking my words and applying what you think I'm saying and replacing what I'm actually saying. I also never said ignore quest chains, I said they lack detail in most cases. While I'm happy with what we got in Shadowlands, it is my opinion that Blizzard doesn't put enough details in to the game. We almost never see things happen in real time. We almost always get filled in by a memory/flashback explaining whatever conclusion we're thrusted upon. We don't actually get to see it happen. It seems as though Blizzard's story telling tends to be in reverse. We start at the conclusion, and work our way back. There's nothing wrong with that though, when done sparingly. There are a few things we've seen over the years.. Like Bolvar, for example. We saw how he died, how he managed to live, how he became the lich king, and so on. That's an example of a good (subjective opinion) storyline where we got to witness/experience the events play out. However, it's far more often that Blizzard puts stories such as these in a book, or as you say, explained much much later. There are plenty of things that have happened throughout the games history, and I for one don't like the idea of getting attached to a particular story line with some interesting mysteries left waiting to be solved, only for Blizzard to finally get around to doing it years later. Using half-assed cutscenes and flashbacks to fill in a story juuuuuuuuuuuuust enough for things to make sense.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    No, actually I'm not. You're taking my words and applying what you think I'm saying and replacing what I'm actually saying. I also never said ignore quest chains, I said they lack detail in most cases. While I'm happy with what we got in Shadowlands, it is my opinion that Blizzard doesn't put enough details in to the game. We almost never see things happen in real time. We almost always get filled in by a memory/flashback explaining whatever conclusion we're thrusted upon. We don't actually get to see it happen. It seems as though Blizzard's story telling tends to be in reverse. We start at the conclusion, and work our way back. There's nothing wrong with that though, when done sparingly. There are a few things we've seen over the years.. Like Bolvar, for example. We saw how he died, how he managed to live, how he became the lich king, and so on. That's an example of a good (subjective opinion) storyline where we got to witness/experience the events play out. However, it's far more often that Blizzard puts stories such as these in a book, or as you say, explained much much later. There are plenty of things that have happened throughout the games history, and I for one don't like the idea of getting attached to a particular story line with some interesting mysteries left waiting to be solved, only for Blizzard to finally get around to doing it years later. Using half-assed cutscenes and flashbacks to fill in a story juuuuuuuuuuuuust enough for things to make sense.
    So to boil down that huge paragraph you claim it's bad that we find a conclusion and work back, because you say it's bad. Followed by saying putting the story in books is bad, because you say it's bad. Then leaving open ended story threads to explore later is bad, because you say it's bad.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  17. #377
    What about this:
    Epic dungeons (+15 difficulty)
    No timer
    Queueable
    Same rewards as +15 level

    M+ same as now

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So to boil down that huge paragraph you claim it's bad that we find a conclusion and work back, because you say it's bad. Followed by saying putting the story in books is bad, because you say it's bad. Then leaving open ended story threads to explore later is bad, because you say it's bad.
    You're not even a semi decent troll.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    You're not even a semi decent troll.
    Ad hominem, look it up. If you don't have an argument just attack the person so you can win.

    Literally that guy's entire post boiled down to his subjective opinion is fact.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  20. #380
    I found difficult dungeons more enjoyable when the difficulty came from balance (early Cataclysm) instead of time (Mythic+).

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