10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[kaminaris]

No timers would mean we sit around before every pack and boss to recharge cd's and bl, where's the fun in that?

"super fast reaction time" isn't really a thing in wow, at most you need to think within a gcd from what i'm aware, which is still pretty fast imo. But making mechanics where you need to dodge in 0.01 seconds is absurd imo, especially where a gcd system is in place.

Also, imo, requiring uber fast reaction time doesn't make something more or less difficult in a mechanical way, it just tests your reflexes, which to an extent, is completely different to being skillful.

Another one with lack of foresight. BL could be disabled and CD would recharge before every boss.

[Rageonit]

Another one with lack of foresight. BL could be disabled and CD would recharge before every boss.

So basically: "Lets change how the entire game works" to accommodate for this brillaint new dungeon design nobody is asking for, with a playstyle that's not suited for the game NOR the crowd playing it.
Dude, why don't you simply go and play games that are already about snappy recation times?

[erifwodahs]

More mechanics instead of a timer does sound fantastic actually. IMO, that would be fantastic!

I agree, but it would just kill M+ for most. People are struggling with Tyra keys as it is. Imagine raid boss mechanics in +15s

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????

Dude what? How is more interesting dungeons suddenly make it slow phased or long experience? Are you saying that boss that can actually kill you is bad?

Lol, are you aware that mechanics are not requirement for the boss to kill people? Just ask for another mode for dungeons - Hard Mode or whatever. M+ could use some improvements, but not a complete change from what it is.

[kaminaris]

I agree, but it would just kill M+ for most. People are struggling with Tyra keys as it is. Imagine raid boss mechanics in +15s

Tyranical is another example of bad design.

[ellieg]

How about you read my post again cause im getting a feeling you are not reading what i wrote or not understand it.

First and foremost do you acknowledge that because of timer, blizzard has to make templated dungeons?

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You don't understand one thing, without timer there is no such thing as "one lag and gg" like its literally now, with timer someone gets a 10s dc and group is gone, key is gone.

Without timer its one lag and you try again. So rest of your post is nonsense.

I acknowledge that the mythic plus dungeon experience is designed with a timer in mind.

What you seem to be asking for is more closely related to a nephalem rift in d3, than it is a mythic plus.

You want randomly generated. Thats not mythic plus dungeon.

You want no timer. Thats not mythic plus dungeon.

You want 200-500ms deadly mechanics. Thats not mythic plus.

What you are asking for is so far removed from mythic plus that I think you would have more support for your idea if you presented it as a new dif content, instead of completely changing an existing one.

[kaminaris]

I acknowledge that the mythic plus dungeon experience is designed with a timer in mind.

What you seem to be asking for is more closely related to a nephalem rift in d3, than it is a mythic plus.

You want randomly generated. Thats not mythic plus dungeon.

You want no timer. Thats not mythic plus dungeon.

You want 200-500ms deadly mechanics. Thats not mythic plus.

What you are asking for is so far removed from mythic plus that I think you would have more support for your idea if you presented it as a new dif content, instead of completely changing an existing one.

You didn't answer the question.

First and foremost do you acknowledge that because of timer, blizzard has to make templated dungeons?

[ellieg]

You didn't answer the question.

First and foremost do you acknowledge that because of timer, blizzard has to make templated dungeons?

I'm not sure what you mean by templated dungeons? That they are the same environment, same mob every time you zone in as opposed to randomly generated?

[bloodykiller86]

Even if the timer was removed, M+ would still be extremely toxic, exclusional and elitist with high barriers of entry.

The problem isn't with M+ but rather the community and more specifically their mindset which is basically: Players want to play with others that are equal to or greater than they are in skill & knowledge. Few players (if any) want to play with "lesser" players and while others might be ok with a mentorship/teaching role, the majority want you to have prior experience (as indicated by a M+ score or r.io score).

FF14 explicitly has a ToS that is against "toxicity" when it comes to comparing players performance. You can still install DPS meters in FF14, you just can't use said meters to critique another player.

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Well that's not true.. doing low dungeons also provides some measure of experience.



But getting a full set of ZM gear is kinda brainless. You don't need much (aside from time) to get there. iLv does not confer the ability/experience on which mobs to interrupt. Which ones to kill first or how to handle various affixes.

While the experience in lower dungeons can be trivial as the affixes may not do as much, it's still experience gained.



And just how much fun is it when DPS don't know any better and burst a large pack of adds on bursting weeks? Or not using interrupts/movement effects on mobs that are just standing in sanguine pools? And let's not just limit this to DPS but also healers and tanks that don't know what to do because up until they step into a dungeon, all they have been doing is just gearing up via World Questing?

Remember it's not just about the time the individual is having "fun" but also the time of the other group members. Maybe they have limited time and want to finish a dungeon in time so they can go do other things.

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Enrage mechanic would like to have a word about "no timer".

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That's not the point. You said earlier that Mythic Raids are complex and good design because they lack a timer. But that's incorrect because there is a timer on some raid encounters known as the Enrage mechanic.

It doesn't matter if the raid is fully alive or down to just a handful of people... the fact is that a timer on a raid encounter exists.

ive always hated the argument that not inviting people to keys is toxic....people can make and fill their own keys and you still get people with 2300 io. i completely get why higher level of players dont want to run with unexperienced ones, because time is precious and wasting 45mins for nothing is just a massive waste of time.

[kaminaris]

I'm not sure what you mean by templated dungeons? That they are the same environment, same mob every time you zone in as opposed to randomly generated?

No, it means all of them have the same structure (has bosses, has trash mobs, has one entrance one exit, has to have specific amount of mobs etc.), same flow and each subsequent run of same dungeon has to be roughly the same experience and time.
No room for heavily random layout.
Not possible to make dungeon without trash or bosses
Not possible for multi entrance/exit dung
Not possible for random mobs be present (ie second run of dungeon would have different mobs with different abilities placed in different spots)
Not possible for randomized mob patrol routes.
Not possible for random but meaningful events inside dungeons
and so on.

[ellieg]

No, it means all of them have the same structure (has bosses, has trash mobs, has one entrance one exit, has to have specific amount of mobs etc.), same flow and each subsequent run of same dungeon has to be roughly the same experience and time.
No room for heavily random layout.
Not possible to make dungeon without trash or bosses
Not possible for multi entrance/exit dung
Not possible for random mobs be present (ie second run of dungeon would have different mobs with different abilities placed in different spots)
Not possible for randomized mob patrol routes.
Not possible for random but meaningful events inside dungeons
and so on.

Then I would say no. Wow dungeons followed this template long before timers were introduced.

I understand that for fairness in a timed environment that this template works well. But I don't believe the timer is the reason for this template since it's always been pretty much this template.

Still roughly the same run but even in m+ you get a bit of randomness. Different gargoyles are active in SD. Different path thru the maze in mists.

[kaminaris]

Then I would say no. Wow dungeons followed this template long before timers were introduced.

I understand that for fairness in a timed environment that this template works well. But I don't believe the timer is the reason for this template since it's always been pretty much this template.

Still roughly the same run but even in m+ you get a bit of randomness. Different gargoyles are active in SD. Different path thru the maze in mists.

I don't ask how they did dungeons before. Think outside of the box.

Would that be possible WITH timer or no? If so, then its a self imposed design limitation.
And if they did wild things, would community get absolutely mad?

[ellieg]

I don't ask how they did dungeons before. Think outside of the box.

Would that be possible WITH timer or no? If so, then its a self imposed design limitation.
And if they did wild things, would community get absolutely mad?

Timer is not the reason for the template. The template has always existed.

But yes. If you were to change the template, then either timer would have to be removed, or timer would have to dynamically scale with the length of the dungeon.

[azka]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

No, thank you.

[kaminaris]

Timer is not the reason for the template. The template has always existed.

But yes. If you were to change the template, then either timer would have to be removed, or timer would have to dynamically scale with the length of the dungeon.

Again, I am not asking if templates existed or not. That is irrelevant.

The whole point is to understand that because of the timer they are unable (not that it's physically impossible) to make non templated dungeons.

They absolutely can, but I cannot imagine a situation where community wouldn't get buttmad about it. Even a slight variations like in Waycrest Manor people were mad about.

Timer limits MANY things.

[Alroxas]

No, it means all of them have the same structure (has bosses, has trash mobs, has one entrance one exit, has to have specific amount of mobs etc.), same flow and each subsequent run of same dungeon has to be roughly the same experience and time.

This is such a misrepresentation. Sure there are some things that are common across all dungeons. But there are enough factors to allow variance within each dungeon so that some dungeons don't share "the same experience". Now some exceptions are made for the MDI but that's a very limited case that the majority of the playerbase will NEVER experience.

No room for heavily random layout.
Not possible for random mobs be present (ie second run of dungeon would have different mobs with different abilities placed in different spots)

The maze in Mists. It's a different path and the composition of the trash is different depending upon which route is selected. Granted in the MDI the path is pre-seeded and known beforehand (usually) to minimize RNG or luck for players. However, because of it's lower trash density, you see some interesting strategies of through the wall pulling to make it more efficient for count.

Not possible for multi entrance/exit dung

But you do get dungeons like De Other Side where players can choose which direction to go, clockwise or counter clockwise around the ring. Heck in S2 SL, we saw players do both so they could get all the seasonal affix buffs before tackling the bosses.

Not possible for random but meaningful events inside dungeons
and so on.

Uh... Court of Stars says hi. Random events/buffs that can help the party and/or shorten the wait to pull the 2nd boss. Heck even the first boss can be affected by a rogue (or alchemist) and the mechanic leading up to the last boss (finding the spy) can be shortened by using a Prot. Paladin (or a DH)

[ellieg]

Again, I am not asking if templates existed or not. That is irrelevant.

The whole point is to understand that because of the timer they are unable (not that it's physically impossible) to make non templated dungeons.

They absolutely can, but I cannot imagine a situation where community wouldn't get buttmad about it. Even a slight variations like in Waycrest Manor people were mad about.

Timer limits MANY things.

But the whole point of this thread is talking about m+ and whether or not they should remove the timer.

You aren't talking about m+ at all. Your design is honestly closer to torghast than it is m+.

[kaminaris]

This is such a misrepresentation. Sure there are some things that are common across all dungeons. But there are enough factors to allow variance within each dungeon so that some dungeons don't share "the same experience". Now some exceptions are made for the MDI but that's a very limited case that the majority of the playerbase will NEVER experience.




The maze in Mists. It's a different path and the composition of the trash is different depending upon which route is selected. Granted in the MDI the path is pre-seeded and known beforehand (usually) to minimize RNG or luck for players. However, because of it's lower trash density, you see some interesting strategies of through the wall pulling to make it more efficient for count.



But you do get dungeons like De Other Side where players can choose which direction to go, clockwise or counter clockwise around the ring. Heck in S2 SL, we saw players do both so they could get all the seasonal affix buffs before tackling the bosses.



Uh... Court of Stars says hi. Random events/buffs that can help the party and/or shorten the wait to pull the 2nd boss. Heck even the first boss can be affected by a rogue (or alchemist) and the mechanic leading up to the last boss (finding the spy) can be shortened by using a Prot. Paladin (or a DH)

"roughly" - my point still stands.

You sure have low standards for variations. And no, not every dungeon has to be the same, but the dungeons that don't fit template cant be made M+, Violet Hold is example (im not saying it was good dungeon, don't misinterpret).

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But the whole point of this thread is talking about m+ and whether or not they should remove the timer.

You aren't talking about m+ at all. Your design is honestly closer to torghast than it is m+.

Why are you going so far with your thoughts, we aren't there yet. Right now we are trying to establish simple thing: does timer limits things blizzard can do in dungeons?

[ellieg]

"roughly" - my point still stands.

You sure have low standards for variations. And no, not every dungeon has to be the same, but the dungeons that don't fit template cant be made M+, Violet Hold is example (im not saying it was good dungeon, don't misinterpret).

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Why are you going so far with your thoughts, we aren't there yet. Right now we are trying to establish simple thing: does timer limits things blizzard can do in dungeons?

No. The timer can be scaled dynamically.

Why can't you look ahead? You're problem is not with the timer.

You're problem seems to be with lack of random layout, dungeons needing boss and trash, only 1 entrance, lack of random mobs, random patrols, random events.

You think the timer is preventing these buts its not.

[kaminaris]

No. The timer can be scaled dynamically.

Why can't you look ahead? You're problem is not with the timer.

You're problem seems to be with lack of random layout, dungeons needing boss and trash, only 1 entrance, lack of random mobs, random patrols, random events.

You think the timer is preventing these buts its not.

Again, blizzard would be able to physically do that. Why aren't they tho? Cause community would get absolutely mad that its unfair, and blizz knows it.

[ellieg]

Again, blizzard would be able to physically do that. Why aren't they tho? Cause community would get absolutely mad that its unfair, and blizz knows it.

I'm still under the opinion that it's not the timer that u dislike, but the dungeons themselves. And removing the timer does not accomplish your goals. You should advocate for extra content along side and in addition to m+