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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The game does a piss job in preparing players for 10+ m runs. THink for a minute - what content before that is somewhat challenging or at the very least requires a player to pay attention to stuff? Certainly doesnt happen while leveling.
    2-9 hello?

    If you make it to tens without knowing ALL the mechanics outside of the seasonal affix you are shit and don't pay attention while getting carried.

    The only exception is at what break points to those become LETHAL and that's literally like 20+ for some of them and even higher for the others.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You didn't state that Destiny 2 and FF14 allow "casual activities". Besides low mythic+ are about as casual as you can get considering you can get +8/9 gear from the open world currently so you can out gear a +8 or below. LFR also triggers the great vault though its rewards are subpar because you can easily gain higher item level rewards from Zerith Mortis.
    Casual activities are solo or queue based. And I was talking about casual content from the beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    I forgot lfr is useless and meaningless elitist non casual content
    LFR is casual content. It is also very, very bad content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Algorath View Post
    To be fair, if the great vault had like "Do 20 world quests" or "Beat 10 Pet Battles" and it gave 278 gear, that'd be terrible.

    They could have two separate vaults, a "Great Vault" for skilled players playing the game and a "Tiny Vault" for casuals farming for The Explorer title, that gives battle pets, and hearthstone animations, transmogs and stuff. The game definitely needs something to make it more engaging for people who aren't interested in doing end game stuff, but I don't think throwing end-game rewards for non-end game activities is the way to go. Why would someone who only does, let's say 5 timewalking dungeons per week, as well as some quests and battle pet stuff, be happy with getting a 278 weapon, it doesn't make sense.
    Getting upgrades is fun. The idea that it’s only fun for hardcore players is weird.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    How exactly is running a few M+ a week non-casual content?
    It takes at most an hour to get yourself a group and finish the dungeon. After 2 weeks you should be able to get into +10, which awards heroic-lvl gear.
    And i say that as a melee dps player, who just returned to the game after a year, with no guild to boost me or time to invest into hardcore gameplay.
    Because organized group content is not casual.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The game does a piss job in preparing players for 10+ m runs. THink for a minute - what content before that is somewhat challenging or at the very least requires a player to pay attention to stuff? Certainly doesnt happen while leveling.
    Because if you play with your screen on with all the gear that the game vomits at you you can brute force 15s. Problem is it still requires people to actually know how to play their classes, which isn't a given. It's the reason why good players were timing 20s on the second week (maybe first idr) with 240ilvl or whatever, and on the flip side 270ilvl M+Andy's can't time a 10. I'm not dissing the lower tiered crowd that does M+, I'm really not. But at some point you can either accept that playing the way you do will keep you stuck in 10s (or lower), or try and improve and go higher. I can solo DPS a +10 on my main character, but that's only because I know a bit more than the average player. I'm no god. I don't claim to be one. Removing the timer won't help anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehalbino View Post
    ? 15s you can pretty much still ignore everything. I'd say near +24 is when most random target casts and abilities are near lethal/one shot.

    I honestly thought that this topic was a subtle troll/bait attempt but came to the sad realization that the OP is actually serious.

    I'd actually advocate for much stricter timers and better rewards. Legion 3chesting was an amazing system but far too easy for max rewards.
    I wasn't talking about the random casts, more the actuall boss mechanics and/or the big frontals, aoe casts that MUST be CCed, those things start to seriously sting in 15s. Urh's slam will oneshot most specs in 20s. And people still dies to it in 20s. They've had 10 keystone levels to know that that stuff is avoidable. You also wont get to 24s if you don't kick/cc stuff that needs to get interrupted. Either your tank will get shredded or your dps will die slowly from all the incoming damage.

    I'm getting close to 3k io, the number of players who still die to dumb shit is astounding, subpar dps, no enchants, tier-set and double legendary carries so hard it's unbelievable.

    15s are easy when playing with a premade obviously, and you can ignore most mechanics (namely Ichor's barrel bomb) but that still requires the individual players to know what to use to counter it. Which isn't a given when playing in pugs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    LFR is casual content. It is also very, very bad content.
    LFR is fine, it's just full of people playing with their screens off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    2-9 hello?

    If you make it to tens without knowing ALL the mechanics outside of the seasonal affix you are shit and don't pay attention while getting carried.

    The only exception is at what break points to those become LETHAL and that's literally like 20+ for some of them and even higher for the others.
    Yeah but 2-9s doens't deal remotely enough damage to be scary, and a good amount of the time you have at least ONE dps who knows what's going on and does mechanics enough so that you can clear the dungeon. 2s are easier than M0 tbf.
    Last edited by Azharok; 2022-05-05 at 11:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    LFR is fine, it's just full of people playing with their screens off.
    That means it is bad content. LFR plays like what it is: An incredibly dumbed down version of a raid. That's not fun. There's a reason that the queue-able raids in FF14 are more engaging, and even more difficult. It's because they are made to be queued into. They aren't just someone saying "How can we take this interesting fight and make it idiot proof?" They make the encounters with the format of the queue in mind, and the mechanics reflect that.

    How bad the encounters are in LFR is the best example of how little the devs care about providing engaging content for casual players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The game does a piss job in preparing players for 10+ m runs. THink for a minute - what content before that is somewhat challenging or at the very least requires a player to pay attention to stuff? Certainly doesnt happen while leveling.
    Because the game provides shit casual content, and that makes players shitty, and then hardcore players whine that casuals only deserve shit content, and the circle goes round and round and round.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #725
    Removing timer won't change anything, in-game no-timer system will be replaced with addons like RIO which would track the timer and accumulate a player score based on that...
    So if there is a demand for a timer, there is no escape from it imo.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    In every single game ever invented if you want to play *optimally* you need to be reading outside sources.

    There isn't a single I have heard of/played that has 100% of all information needed.
    100% optimization on-
    Items
    Routes
    Bosses
    Random mobs
    Abilities
    Gear
    Rotations
    Talents
    Secrets
    And many many many more to add to this list that I CBA to think of.

    Stop being shit on other peoples time.
    Not that I ever stole time to anyone, but game should be enjoyable to an extent even for people that don’t treat it like a second job (you also pay for, lol).

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That means it is bad content. LFR plays like what it is: An incredibly dumbed down version of a raid. That's not fun. There's a reason that the queue-able raids in FF14 are more engaging, and even more difficult. It's because they are made to be queued into. They aren't just someone saying "How can we take this interesting fight and make it idiot proof?" They make the encounters with the format of the queue in mind, and the mechanics reflect that.

    How bad the encounters are in LFR is the best example of how little the devs care about providing engaging content for casual players.

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    Because the game provides shit casual content, and that makes players shitty, and then hardcore players whine that casuals only deserve shit content, and the circle goes round and round and round.
    And yet, despite being a dumbed down version of the raid, people still manage to die to the 2 mechanics that are present during the encounter. With no penalty to them because you only need like 1/4th of the raid alive to kill the boss anyway most of the time. If normal was queueable you would have the same issue. Despite normal being arguably idiot proof too.

    The queueable content wow provides is fine, you not liking it is a matter of opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Like stacking affixes? Personally I rather see an ever-shortening timer than the difficulty getting padded with affixes. The timer is elegant whereas affixes are mainly reducing the flexibility with which a party can deal with mobs. But if people really hate the timer this much then continuously adding these affixes to increase the difficulty is all I can think of.
    Like anything that don’t make you think “ok this is not doable until I get to ilvl XYZ no matter how hard I try”.

    How to do this? No idea, I’m not a dev but as I said the combat system is not prone to try that MANY things to experiment with, especially for “single player experience”.

  9. #729
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Not that I ever stole time to anyone, but game should be enjoyable to an extent even for people that don’t treat it like a second job (you also pay for, lol).
    ??? There is no need to study this Just open icyveins or wowhead read some shit and thats it like 15minutes to know ur class/dungeon or whatever u need. This is not rocket sience. If useing brain is hard for some ppl that is their problem not the game problem. IMO. If someone want brainless gameplay go for candycrash.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    ??? There is no need to study this Just open icyveins or wowhead read some shit and thats it like 15minutes to know ur class/dungeon or whatever u need. This is not rocket sience. If useing brain is hard for some ppl that is their problem not the game problem. IMO. If someone want brainless gameplay go for candycrash.
    I am not against learning stuff in a videogame, but it should videogame itself driven, not external sources driven.

    Also, reading is one thing, remembering and put informations in practice flawlessly (because else timer is gone) is another thing.

    Every dungeon requires learning about
    - optimal path
    - skips
    - what packs and bosses do and when and how your class/spec have to deal with every single one

    All multiplied per 8 dungeons (or x16 because some things are different for the 10+ bracket).

    It’s not rocket science but it’s also not a one time 15 mins reading while you yawn watching Netflix in another window.

  11. #731
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am not against learning stuff in a videogame, but it should videogame itself driven, not external sources driven.

    Also, reading is one thing, remembering and put informations in practice flawlessly (because else timer is gone) is another thing.

    Every dungeon requires learning about
    - optimal path
    - skips
    - what packs and bosses do and when and how your class/spec have to deal with every single one

    All multiplied per 8 dungeons (or x16 because some things are different for the 10+ bracket).

    It’s not rocket science but it’s also not a one time 15 mins reading while you yawn watching Netflix in another window.
    If u want to push m+ high keys yes and thats fine to require some effort from player to get some source and be focused.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am not against learning stuff in a videogame, but it should videogame itself driven, not external sources driven.

    Also, reading is one thing, remembering and put informations in practice flawlessly (because else timer is gone) is another thing.

    Every dungeon requires learning about
    - optimal path
    - skips
    - what packs and bosses do and when and how your class/spec have to deal with every single one

    All multiplied per 8 dungeons (or x16 because some things are different for the 10+ bracket).

    It’s not rocket science but it’s also not a one time 15 mins reading while you yawn watching Netflix in another window.
    Each pack is played more or less the same, you pop CDs and hit it till it's dead, if you don't have CDs you still hit it till it's dead. As far as what mobs and bosses do, there's like one spell per dungeon that needs to get kicked, the rest can more or less be ignored until you get into super high keys. As far as boss abilities, well you've had M0 till however high you're pushing to learn them, so i'd expect someone in a 15 to KNOW what bosses do.

    Take NW for instance, the only spells you must absolutely kick are "drain fluid" and the fear from the marauders, the rest can be healed through on lower difficulties, these are the only two spells that can really make a run go sideways. Obviously the higher you go, the more you'll want to kick the rest as well (upstairs there's an aoe dot that need kicking, maybe 2 mobs cast it max) and you also have the aoe frostbolt (on high tyr it needs kicking).

    You don't need to skip anything for time until you hit 20s and if you go over a few % it's doesn't really matter. Maybe SoA and Myst have the biggest skips that aren't even that hard to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Out of my own curiosity is there a specific reason? I don't imagine it's the difficulty part, as most people playing higher level M+ are playing classes meant for the speedy burst timings.
    ofc its the difficulty part, if you are doing something far easier you shouldnt get the same reward...

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    And yet, despite being a dumbed down version of the raid, people still manage to die to the 2 mechanics that are present during the encounter. With no penalty to them because you only need like 1/4th of the raid alive to kill the boss anyway most of the time. If normal was queueable you would have the same issue. Despite normal being arguably idiot proof too.

    The queueable content wow provides is fine, you not liking it is a matter of opinion.
    You thinking its fine is a matter of opinion, but so is thinking dog shit tastes fine and that doesn't make "Steve's Dogshit Quesadillas" a smart restaurant idea.

    The fact is that FF14 has harder content than LFR and it is queue-able and is amazing, because the content is properly designed.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post

    Getting upgrades is fun. The idea that it’s only fun for hardcore players is weird.
    I get that, but if you are a casual player who spends time with everything the game has to offer except raiding, m+ or PVP, surely there are better rewards for your time than end-game, high ilvl items? Mounts, titles, pets, keys for extra attempts at collectables you are farming, this kinda stuff.

  16. #736
    (I know I know, sorry for the length, I had a lot to say)

    Hello, first time poster here, I am very passionate about this subject as I believe it can really improve the game for many people.
    I post this to bring clarification to the original post idea and I will also tackle many of the common concerns, thats why this post is so long.


    Mythic + comes from challenge mode and brought many of its features with it.
    The timer made sense for CM since it was meant as optional bonus content, giving you something to do and a way for you to challenge yourself once you're done with the other content. However, M+ is no longer just bonus content like CM but instead has become a proper form of progression and a big part of the game that everyone is encouraged to do on a daily basis. Some features like the timer or chest system no longer makes sense for what m+ has become and are now causing some problems.
    But I do understand that many enjoy the timer as a core part of m+ so perhaps we can find a solution that works for both.

    We could have 2 modes for m+, one with time pressure the other without it.
    (Details are sorted out at the end)

    Please understand, this change would make a lot of people happy and bring a lot of engagement to the m+ world. So I ask you, in all honesty, is it really a big enough deal to you that you must deny these people? Keep in mind that this would cause no change to the current m+ it would simply be another option.

    Common concerns:

    1-Fears concerning changing m+.
    Nothing will change for those who like it the way it currently is.
    It will be 2 different mode with 2 different key and you can progress in either one as you like, people who enjoy the way it is can completely ignore the new mode and only engage with the current m+.

    2-Thinking that we want this because its too difficult.
    This is a great misconception that many have, the difficulty is not the problem, yes most people can do 15 with enough perseverance, the problem is how dreadful it has become to just engage with the system.

    3-If you dont like it don't do it.
    A lot of us really enjoy m+, but once you reach a certain point, engaging in it simply becomes too painful so we are driven away. Thats why we are trying to find solutions, its because we like m+ not because we dont like it.

    4-You dont need to do m+.
    Lets be real here, the gear is just too big of an incentive for people to just ignore. People feel forced to do it, thats just the way it is, so why not make it more fun for them. Especialy if there is a solution that does not affect the current system.

    5-Without timer it instantly becomes lfr so you dont deserve gear.
    Yes some situations will be easier, you dont have to pull 4 packs with bloodlust and all cds in the beginning anymore, but I don't think there is must difference between a +15 boss with timer vs +15 boss without timer, assuming in both case you start with all your cds which is often the case with current system. The bosses are just as hard, you will still do the easier trash without cds between the hard trash with cds. You still have to interrupt, avoid frontals, dispels, move out of aoe, play the various mechanics, have good healer, dps and tank, and know the bosses strategies. Without timer the "success rate" would drasticly go up but it would not suddenly turn into free loot.
    That being said, at the end of the day its simple, you can already do a +15 in 3h and get mythic raid level gear and if we are honest you had no problem with that until a second ago. Would you mind it that much to just let us have a proper official new mode? I guaranty it will bring the m+ engagement and enjoyment metric up by a lot.

    6-Timer is needed to prevent degeneracy.
    The new mode will have no rewards beyond 15, and I dont think +15 and below will require such shinanigans.
    Even so do you really care if a group with green gear spends 5h in a +15 by waiting for all cds, it would actually be impressive in my opinion and they earn the gear in my book.
    Also if a group wants to try a +50 with 5 tanks let them, it will be fun to watch and impressive if they succeed. There would be absolutly no reason other than fun to go beyond 15 in the new mode. The rankings and other rewards will only be in the current m+ mode.
    And remember, you can completely ignore this new mode. Current m+ will give just as much gear, so you can choose the mode you prefer to progress in.

    7-Players would still be toxic, it wouldnt change anything.
    Systems have a great influence on a players toxicity level, thats also why I blame the system and not the players for this.
    Change the system and the toxicity level will change with it. There will still be some toxicity of course, but I it will be a lot more managable.
    Just the fact that now players will mostly play with other players that have a similar mindset will help a lot.



    Figuring out the details:
    Mode 1(No timer) would only be for gearing.
    It would have a fixed loot and key system not based on time, the timer would be either removed or increased to 3h baseline making it so player dont worry about it at all and is there only to avoid a few unwanted situations. It would give players a way to taste, enjoy and get better at m+ without all the stress. I believe this would also attract a lot more player to join the m+ world.

    Mode 2(Timer) would be mainly for rankings and extra rewards.
    It would work exactly like current m+ except with fixed loot.
    It will give the exact same amount of gear as mode 1 regardless of time.
    You can go straight into mode 2 without ever touching mode 1.
    There should be no gear incentive to do mode 2 over mode 1 otherwise people would still feel forced to go in there and it would defeat the purpose entirely.
    The incentive behind mode 2 would be the extra rewards, rankings, mdi and simply challenging yourself.

    There would be 2 different keys that you can progress separately.
    Mode 1 keys will be easier to build but you can only build +1 at a time.
    You can build a mode 2 key faster but it will be harder.
    The key in mode 1 could stop at 15, since there is no point in going further or we could let the players have fun with it and try to reach +50 either way the only reason for going above 15 in mode 1 would be for fun.

    Things can be worked on if there is a better way to implement it but thats the gist of it.
    We could also introduce a queuing system with this, but thats for another discussion I think.


    Final thoughts,
    This change will have no effect on the current m+ and be really good for many people, so I ask you to please consider, is refusing them really worth that much to you simply because you feel they dont deserve 1 piece of mythic gear per week after doing an entire +15, but without timer?

    Let me know in the replies.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I hate timers in games. Removing them from mythic+ would get me into them way more.
    The microsecond I understood that it was all timed stuff, I bailed and resolved to never go again, that's not why I play this game and far be it from me to force my playstyle on 4 strangers.

    For me wow is about getting lost in the fantasy to, prolong it, to go deeeep, to learn about i dunno Furbolgs? Their society their leaders their plights etc and as a hero, help them.

    Not this Need4Speed timed stuff.

    Edit: Mother F'ing! MANKRIKS WIFE sorta stuff, that shit cut me deep!
    Last edited by Kharnath; 2022-05-06 at 12:00 AM.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ofc its the difficulty part, if you are doing something far easier you shouldnt get the same reward...
    Somewhat agree, but I fall in the lane of 'it's not something that affects the majority of players' - though I do get having better rewards for doing harder content, so it's not like I'm disagreeing.

    That said, if untimed (Or just a much longer timer) has jacked up scaling and a few more mechanics thrown into each mob pack to require you to take your time - is that not still skilled? I'd argue it is. Slower does not automatically mean less skilled, it usually means you aren't playing the right comp to go faster. Which - unfortunate to say, there are some specs / classes which do not excel at going fast and bursty compared to slow and steady.

    Personally speaking, I wouldn't mind similar gear for the same difficulty curve, just in a slower state. If you get what I mean?

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Take NW for instance, the only spells you must absolutely kick are "drain fluid" and the fear from the marauders, the rest can be healed through on lower difficulties
    I can't take you serious if you think drain fluid is more dangerous then goresplatter. You have to interrupt both, sometimes 3 of these combined in pulls. In some pulls with a drain fluid you also have a vanguard that has to be interupted or it will put up full hp absorb shields. Some of the maurader pulls also has a bonemender in it that needs to be interupted or he will sacrifice and full heal the maurader. You're trying to tell people about M+ mechanics and exposing yourself for not even knowing them.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2022-05-06 at 04:45 AM.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    I can't take you serious if you think drain fluid is more dangerous then goresplatter. You have to interrupt both, sometimes 3 of these combined in pulls. In some pulls with a drain fluid you also have a vanguard that has to be interupted or it will put up full hp absorb shields. Some of the maurader pulls also has a bonemender in it that needs to be interupted or he will sacrifice and full heal the maurader. You're trying to tell people about M+ mechanics and exposing yourself for not even knowing them.
    None of these spells puts the group in danger, though, gore's platter starts killing on like fort 20s and up. I didn't list everything. If you're running 10s-15s, the quick and dirty of NW is enough. Obviously the more you cc/dodge the better. Spine break also does a ton of damage if you sit in the AoE.

    Edit : my game is in French, is gore's platter the spell or the AoE frontal from the big dude?
    Last edited by Azharok; 2022-05-06 at 06:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

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