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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by ifrah View Post
    Probably has been said already, but whatever, saying it again.
    Without timers mythic+ turns essentially into 5man raiding: There's trash that is irrelevant as you can pull and chop things almost one mob at a time, and blast whatever cooldowns you need, if that's how you want to roll. And then the bosses where you sit down for all CDs before the pull.
    The issue, however with the untimed challenge will be bosses well before the trash poses virtually any problems (given that you take the untimed approach and do all the CC, single pulls etc.).
    Good or a bad thing, up to each of us to form their opinions, but at least I prefer the m+ trash having some relevance. Without timers there would be absolutely none.
    Again though this really seems like a non-issue.
    A) People tend to want to get pugs over with as soon as possible, meaning the chances of one waiting around for cds or not breaking cc are extremely low
    B) If a group does want to do that, why should anyone tell them they can't? They're essentially paying for lower stress runs with their own time, and time is the most valuable currency in any mmo.

    I don't mind the idea of giving rewards for timing a run, but they should be cosmetic like the og challenge modes. Certainly no one should be losing their key over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Again though this really seems like a non-issue.
    A) People tend to want to get pugs over with as soon as possible, meaning the chances of one waiting around for cds or not breaking cc are extremely low
    B) If a group does want to do that, why should anyone tell them they can't? They're essentially paying for lower stress runs with their own time, and time is the most valuable currency in any mmo.

    I don't mind the idea of giving rewards for timing a run, but they should be cosmetic like the og challenge modes. Certainly no one should be losing their key over it.
    You don't lose your key over it, you don't lose loot over it. Did you time travel from early legion? Your takes certainly sound like you haven't done a M+ in the entire last 2 expacs.

    You can go at a very relaxed pace and still time up to 15s with even below average players. They are a breeze and the timer is not an issue for them at all and even if something gos incredibly wrong and you don't time a 15... you still get loot... you still get credit for a +15 on your weekly vault and the only thing you lost out on was the key jumping to a 16(which you don't even need if its just about ilvl rewards) and rating.

    Lastly thinking the timer creates toxic pug dps that ninja pull is also indeed hilarious since that existed long before M+ was ever a thing. People have always wanted to do dungeons as quickly as possible since the game has existed and the only things that ever slowed this down was tanks having non existent aoe threat in the early days of WoW.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2022-05-08 at 04:05 PM.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Again though this really seems like a non-issue.
    A) People tend to want to get pugs over with as soon as possible, meaning the chances of one waiting around for cds or not breaking cc are extremely low
    B) If a group does want to do that, why should anyone tell them they can't? They're essentially paying for lower stress runs with their own time, and time is the most valuable currency in any mmo.

    I don't mind the idea of giving rewards for timing a run, but they should be cosmetic like the og challenge modes. Certainly no one should be losing their key over it.
    The problem with that avenue of thinking is that it does not remove raiding from the gearing paradigm. I play mythic plus exclusively because i can get a special mount, gear equal to lower tier mythic raids ( and much slower ) without having to deal with schedules or timing it like its some lame ass dungeons and dragons session. Another aspect is how the timer adds a stresser to the overall activity that forces the players to deal with some sort of pressure even if its largely irrelevant with some basic planning by the tank.

    Its akin to saying removing enrage timers from bosses or allowing infinite battle rezs, it makes the dungeon not punishing enough.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    The problem with that avenue of thinking is that it does not remove raiding from the gearing paradigm. I play mythic plus exclusively because i can get a special mount, gear equal to lower tier mythic raids ( and much slower ) without having to deal with schedules or timing it like its some lame ass dungeons and dragons session. Another aspect is how the timer adds a stresser to the overall activity that forces the players to deal with some sort of pressure even if its largely irrelevant with some basic planning by the tank.

    Its akin to saying removing enrage timers from bosses or allowing infinite battle rezs, it makes the dungeon not punishing enough.
    I'm not sure I understand your argument here, how does removing the timers link to loot and key upgrades affect any of that? I specifically mentioned keeping the timer in place for special cosmetic rewards like mounts. You're hardly the only person who prefers 5 man content, all the mythic+ players are not going to change their minds because groups who want to are doing their keys more slowly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    -SNIP-.
    That was a long wall of text that didn't refute either of my points. Congratulations, you win the "irrational angry response of the day" award.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    That was a long wall of text that didn't refute either of my points. Congratulations, you win the "irrational angry response of the day" award.
    3 small paragraphs, such wall of text and it's really not hard to refute points of a guy that thinks M+ still works like it did in early legion and your key depletes/you get no loot for missing timer. Nice try but no one is taking this fake tactic serious. You're literally running away because you got exposed for not even knowing how it works.

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    3 small paragraphs, such wall of text and it's really not hard to refute points of a guy that thinks M+ still works like it did in early legion and your key depletes/you get no loot for missing timer. Nice try but no one is taking this fake tactic serious. You're literally running away because you got exposed for not even knowing how it works.
    Still completely irrational. The word "loot" was never even mentioned in my post, and if you think you keep the same key if you fail the timer I'm not the one who doesn't understand mythic+ mechanics.
    Thanks for illustrating the type of person defending the current timer mechanics, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  7. #847
    Ppl need to understand that m+ is treated just like a raid boss. They are both one "event". In raids that event ends when you kill the boss, or hit enrage, or all die. In m+ that event ends when u kill enough trash and all bosses, or the timer depletes. M+ is a ~30 min event and honestly has more room for errors. Failing a timer because u don't have enough dps is like failing a dps check mechanic in a raid. Failing a timer because you died too many times is the same as a raid wipe.

    If you are too scared of the timer and don't like it, just 10 man raid heroic or step up and raid mythic. M+ is easy enough already.

    If you think there should be completely untimed dungeons that give loot at the same ilvl, and at the same scaling, you're delusional. They'd have to increase the difficulty of the dungeon to compensate. And tbh, if u can't handle timing a 15, I dont think you'd realistically be completing the harder difficulty but untimed dungeon.

    If you want 278 ilvl gear, but dislike m+, raiding, and pvp, maybe you should find a dif game that already caters to you. No need to make a post about it. Just download that game and go play. If you're up for the "challenge", then practice your skills and quite literally get good. If its not fun, then go play what is fun and leave the content for the ppl that do enjoy it.

  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ppl need to understand that m+ is treated just like a raid boss. They are both one "event". In raids that event ends when you kill the boss, or hit enrage, or all die. In m+ that event ends when u kill enough trash and all bosses, or the timer depletes. M+ is a ~30 min event and honestly has more room for errors. Failing a timer because u don't have enough dps is like failing a dps check mechanic in a raid. Failing a timer because you died too many times is the same as a raid wipe.
    I'd agree with you if there was an element of rpg to the timer but there's not, it's clearly for sports and fun and not like in the old roleplay ideas of strat or tbc with npc-prisoner executions. Personally I don't see the problem of replacing the timer in M+ with boss enrage/berserk mechanics or returning to the old rpg-ideas that are tried and proven. I play the game for the rpg element and group content, not for sport or pushing myself. "Gitgut" is dismissive of legitimate critique by passionate fans at blizz's trend of watering down rpg elements in the game due to their boner for making wow into an esport and acting like the two genres can't coexist or compliment each other in symbiosis.
    I'd happily engage with M+ if it ticked my boxes but as it currently stands it's the pits of despair to my tastes in gaming and that's without touching upon the MagicKey-mess of a gating system they've put-in to go along with it.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2022-05-09 at 04:24 PM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    I'd agree with you if there was an element of rpg to the timer but there's not, it's clearly for sports and fun and not like in the old roleplay ideas of strat or tbc with npc-prisoner executions. Personally I don't see the problem of replacing the timer in M+ with boss enrage/berserk mechanics or returning to the old rpg-ideas that are tried and proven. I play the game for the rpg element and group content, not for sport or pushing myself. "Gitgut" is dismissive of legitimate critique by passionate fans at blizz's trend of watering down rpg elements in the game due to their boner for making wow into an esport and acting like the two genres can't coexist or compliment each other in symbiosis.
    I'd happily engage with M+ if it ticked my boxes but as it currently stands it's the pits of despair to my tastes in gaming and that's without touching upon the MagicKey-mess of a gating system they've put-in to go along with it.
    This game honestly stopped having 90% of rpg elements a long time ago. Dont agree that timer = bad cause its not rpg.

    Most gamers don't want to jump into content without some idea of how long its gonna take. They have shorter periods of play time. M+ timer let's me know im not gonna be spending more than 40-45 mins in a dungeon, ideally 30. I can plan around that. Its the reason why right now 10% of characters have KSM, but only 2% have ahead of the curve.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    But the gear isn't the thing that is required to do the hard content though ... Gear only carries you through so much "difficulty" before you need to actually play with both hands and the screen on. What good does funneling 270ilvl gear towards players with 0 M+/PVP rating or 0 boss XP do ? We'll have loads of people queueing up for content they can't really complete, and it'll be the same. ilvl over score in 2-9 brackets, and then it'll be score over ilvl. We could argue that once they get a foot in the door with massively inflated ilvl they might catch on on what needs to be done to get the key timed but I wouldn't bet my left nut on it.
    Why are you thinking that the thing preventing people from joining high level M+ is gear?

    I wouldn’t join them even if I was ilvl 280.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Why are you thinking that the thing preventing people from joining high level M+ is gear?

    I wouldn’t join them even if I was ilvl 280.
    I didn't say it was. You could have BiS gear in every slot and still deplete a 15 if you and your group don't know how to play your classes. Having better gear just makes the likelyhood of depleting a 15 smaller. But gear is pretty much irrelevant once you get past 15s because it's almost entirely based on how good you play since everyone in the 15s and up will be 270+ with 4P and 2 legendaries (on average anyway).
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    I didn't say it was. You could have BiS gear in every slot and still deplete a 15 if you and your group don't know how to play your classes. Having better gear just makes the likelyhood of depleting a 15 smaller. But gear is pretty much irrelevant once you get past 15s because it's almost entirely based on how good you play since everyone in the 15s and up will be 270+ with 4P and 2 legendaries (on average anyway).
    You were asking yourself what was good in funneling ppl with 270 gear if they don’t do M+.

    I can ask “why is not good”? They won’t join anyways because they would have horrible rio anyways despite their gear.

  13. #853
    Probably an unpopular opinion but I just want them to nerf m+ rewards so there isn't a feeling of being forced to it, particularly at the start of new content. Having the highest item level given for completing a 15+ is far too powerful and isn't equivalent in difficulty to having to mythic raid or be 2.4k+ rated in pvp. Should be changed to at least a 20.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    This game honestly stopped having 90% of rpg elements a long time ago. Dont agree that timer = bad cause its not rpg.

    Most gamers don't want to jump into content without some idea of how long its gonna take. They have shorter periods of play time. M+ timer let's me know im not gonna be spending more than 40-45 mins in a dungeon, ideally 30. I can plan around that. Its the reason why right now 10% of characters have KSM, but only 2% have ahead of the curve.
    Actually, the largest reason ahead of the curve is actually so low this season is because there is very little incentive to kill him, Blizz dropped the ball on his loot table and most raids skip him and go to mythic. Why spend all that time progressing on the fight when most of the raid won't benefit, we're 5/11M and still haven't bothered. But yes raiding is a larger time investment as you say than M+.
    Last edited by csguba; 2022-05-10 at 09:59 AM.

  14. #854
    Explain exactly why it is a good idea without presenting your own subjective opinion as an argument.

    Come with facts instead of opinion and anecdotes and people might be more open to your suggestion.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    Probably an unpopular opinion
    I think it would probably be the single biggest death knell to the game to nerf the most popular pve activity by a wide margin.

    At this point most people who want to raid find a way to raid. It's very self-selected since it requires a lot of effort to guild shop/app. People have to want to do that (and a lot of people do!)

    People who don't want to raid never will, though, and if you kill the fun they've enjoyed for 6 years now, they'll just quit.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    I think it would probably be the single biggest death knell to the game to nerf the most popular pve activity by a wide margin.

    At this point most people who want to raid find a way to raid. It's very self-selected since it requires a lot of effort to guild shop/app. People have to want to do that (and a lot of people do!)

    People who don't want to raid never will, though, and if you kill the fun they've enjoyed for 6 years now, they'll just quit.
    There are a lot of assumptions here, but the most glaring one is that the timer is somehow integral to the majority of players enjoying mythic+
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  17. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    There are a lot of assumptions here, but the most glaring one is that the timer is somehow integral to the majority of players enjoying mythic+
    Using numbers from r.io for season 3 (unique class population), it seems that there is a much higher percentage of players who continue to push M+ keys beyond +15 which is where the loot benefit ends.

    One would surmise that there is very little external reasons for doing keys beyond +15 if there isn't a factor of enjoyment from completing (in time) those higher keys. In fact, you see a decent amount of unique class population up through +20 keys. It's only when you start looking at +25 and higher do you see the engagement drop very rapidly.
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  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    There are a lot of assumptions here, but the most glaring one is that the timer is somehow integral to the majority of players enjoying mythic+
    Timer wasn't mentioned in what I was replying to!

    (Thought it probably is, for the many reasons expressed elsewhere)
    Last edited by Ashana Darkmoon; 2022-05-10 at 03:22 PM.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Using numbers from r.io for season 3 (unique class population), it seems that there is a much higher percentage of players who continue to push M+ keys beyond +15 which is where the loot benefit ends.

    One would surmise that there is very little external reasons for doing keys beyond +15 if there isn't a factor of enjoyment from completing (in time) those higher keys. In fact, you see a decent amount of unique class population up through +20 keys. It's only when you start looking at +25 and higher do you see the engagement drop very rapidly.
    It's the only challenging 5 man content. You're again assuming that the timer is integral to that. There is no way for these players to experience harder content without a timer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Timer wasn't mentioned in what I was replying to!
    Oh, sorry about that. Should have looked closer at your quote and not assumed it was just the OP since you snipped it
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You were asking yourself what was good in funneling ppl with 270 gear if they don’t do M+.

    I can ask “why is not good”? They won’t join anyways because they would have horrible rio anyways despite their gear.
    Because it cheapens the experience for everyone. Why bother running keys if one can get better gear from XYZ content, the gear treadmill stops at some point for everyone. But people tend to take the path of least resistance, and that probably waiting on lust for every hard boss/pack and spending an inordonate amount of time running the proposed time-free M+ that the OP was proposing. I truly believe that it's a case of "you think this is a good idea, but it's not". It doesn't remove the requirement to form a group unless you want queuable M-, which further widens the divide between the good players and the bads (and by bad I mean, someone who doesn't know/care what their spells do and is just having fun but is unfortunatly dragging the other 4 people down). I mean look at LFR, mechanics are non existent, and still people manage to wipe on it, do less DPS that I did in season 1 despite being 250+ilvl. It's plain silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

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