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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    Uhm sorry but there is the option to play M+ without a timer. You even recieve loot at the end of the dungeon and from thr great frustration...i mean great vault
    Exactly. Just run a busted keystone if that's what you enjoy, there's an excess of those. Why is this even a thread? The gameplay feature already exists and nobody wants to play it.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Maybe that isn't the right guild fit for you then?



    Depends on the guild, I've seen some with draconian requirements and I've seen some where they have a very relaxed requirements. And yes, these are the same guilds that do Mythic progression.

    Shit, there are even guild that do 1 night mythic progression per week and still make progress over guilds that spend multiple days per week.
    No the guild is fine, I'm happy with the requirement because it makes sense in it's current form. Perhaps a few don't but I can tell you the vast vast majority of serious mythic raiding guilds will not be happy with any core member skipping on m+ at the start of tier because 278 gear is far too powerful to miss out on. It just won't happen. Perhaps later down the line in the tier but certainly not the first month.

  3. #883
    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    No the guild is fine, I'm happy with the requirement because it makes sense in it's current form. Perhaps a few don't but I can tell you the vast vast majority of serious mythic raiding guilds will not be happy with any core member skipping on m+ at the start of tier because 278 gear is far too powerful to miss out on. It just won't happen. Perhaps later down the line in the tier but certainly not the first month.
    This might of been a excuse when the M+ chest was a free mythic raid ilvl piece in previous expansions but with great vault now existing with raid credit, no M+ is not a requirement for gearing up raiders unless you are in one of the top guilds in the world, and M+ for them is more about acquiring certain trinkets then the weekly vault credit.

    Most mythic raiders already run M+ and don't need to be mandated to do it anyways, a guild that has to mandate it sounds like a shit guild ngl.

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    This might of been a excuse when the M+ chest was a free mythic raid ilvl piece in previous expansions but with great vault now existing with raid credit, no M+ is not a requirement for gearing up raiders unless you are in one of the top guilds in the world, and M+ for them is more about acquiring certain trinkets then the weekly vault credit.

    Most mythic raiders already run M+ and don't need to be mandated to do it anyways, a guild that has to mandate it sounds like a shit guild ngl.
    This is just incorrect, note I am referring to the start of a raid tier. Most mythic progressing guilds dont just want walk in and start clearing bosses, it takes time and you'll start with heroic raid clear first. Actively choosing to not do content that gives you 278 gear that is relatively speaking much easier to obtain is absurd and would be a detriment to your guild. Particularly like you say as a lot of people will willingly choosing to do it which are also your competitors for raid spots.

    Ultimately, my point is that the reward currently is not close to being equal in difficulty to mythic raiding / 2400 rated pvp. I would like this to be changed, but is of course unpopular which I get.

  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    People seem to forget that things can be difficult without having to be mindlessly fast. All a timer does is make it more challenging than it needs to be because you have to play more careless than you probably would otherwise. Brainless rushing is not something that should be encouraged.
    I get that, but I have been in runs where the group collectively agreed that timing the run doesn't matter - completion was all we wanted. It counts toward the vault and you still get loot at the end.

    I guess the problem is there is no way to access higher difficulties without timing previous runs to get there. If they added alternative means to upgrade a key after completion it would be cool. They kinda did that with Torghast (you could go for time or full clear). They could add ridiculously challenging optional pulls and bosses to achieve this.

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    I get that, but I have been in runs where the group collectively agreed that timing the run doesn't matter - completion was all we wanted. It counts toward the vault and you still get loot at the end.

    I guess the problem is there is no way to access higher difficulties without timing previous runs to get there. If they added alternative means to upgrade a key after completion it would be cool. They kinda did that with Torghast (you could go for time or full clear). They could add ridiculously challenging optional pulls and bosses to achieve this.
    Tbh, the majority of the ppl that want to remove the timer just aren't good players. I dont see these players completing "ridiculously challenging optional pulls and bosses". The gear rewards only go up to 15. With double lego and tier, I've been groups that have fully wiped 3 times and still timed the 15. No fancy routes needed, no ungodly dps needed, no double pulling needed, just dont go afk in between pulls.

  7. #887
    I absolutely cannot wait for season 4, when everybody is getting shit groups and failed keys doing 3 expansion old dungeons in M+ format and absolutely failing at them for not knowing them currently, not remembering them from before, and not taking the time to re-learn them now.


    And they will still stay M+ is the only problem.


    Side note: does anybody wanna start a MMO-C M+ community, lmao

  8. #888
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Side note: does anybody wanna start a MMO-C M+ community, lmao
    +2 progression runs inc

    Btw, the highlight of S4 will be people dying (repeatedly) to environmental damage in the new dungeons.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I absolutely cannot wait for season 4, when everybody is getting shit groups and failed keys doing 3 expansion old dungeons in M+ format and absolutely failing at them for not knowing them currently, not remembering them from before, and not taking the time to re-learn them now.


    And they will still stay M+ is the only problem.


    Side note: does anybody wanna start a MMO-C M+ community, lmao
    I feel like a lot of ppl experienced this with the tazavesh dungeons. If pugging, get ahead of the curve quick and I imagine it won't be too awful. Gonna depend on how they tune it tho lol

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I absolutely cannot wait for season 4, when everybody is getting shit groups and failed keys doing 3 expansion old dungeons in M+ format and absolutely failing at them for not knowing them currently, not remembering them from before, and not taking the time to re-learn them now.


    And they will still stay M+ is the only problem.


    Side note: does anybody wanna start a MMO-C M+ community, lmao
    It's going to be really rough. Instead of people avoiding Taz keys they are going to be the good ones :P

    Personally I think Mechagon will be okayish since at least it isn't that old, but the others are gonna be real bad.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    It's going to be really rough. Instead of people avoiding Taz keys they are going to be the good ones :P

    Personally I think Mechagon will be okayish since at least it isn't that old, but the others are gonna be real bad.

    Mechagon had the robot buffs to carry you through the first half of the dungeon at least, and the last half bosses were bore-me-to-tears easy (except maybe K.U.-J.0. for bad pugs) but I am going to avoid Return to Karazhan and Grimrail Depot like the plague.


    Unless with a group of friends who know how to play the game, of course.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    +2 progression runs inc

    Even that will be too hard for 90% of the people in this very thread, let alone the entire website.


    Btw, the highlight of S4 will be people dying (repeatedly) to environmental damage in the new dungeons.

    I can already imagine how "well" the first boss of Iron Docks will go.
    And 2nd boss of Iron Docks.
    And 3rd boss of Iron Docks.

    ...the entirety of Iron Docks.

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I absolutely cannot wait for season 4, when everybody is getting shit groups and failed keys doing 3 expansion old dungeons in M+ format and absolutely failing at them for not knowing them currently, not remembering them from before, and not taking the time to re-learn them now.


    And they will still stay M+ is the only problem.


    Side note: does anybody wanna start a MMO-C M+ community, lmao
    The WoD dungeons and Kara are mechanically a joke compared to Shadowlands dungeons, they will probably feel easy as hell.

    Mechagon might cause people that don't know it issues but buffs carry you through upper mechagon and made it the easiest BFA M+. So that really just leaves lower mechagon which does have a decent amount of mechanics and no crutch buffs to carry like upper.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Personally I think Mechagon will be okayish since at least it isn't that old, but the others are gonna be real bad.
    I think you're underestimating just how mechanically bare bones the WoD dungeons and Kara are. Especially the WoD ones. WoD dungeons weren't made with M+ in mind and Kara was just a refresher of an old, easy raid with only a few new unique bosses and mechanics added. They will be facerolled without knowing anything for the most part. Unless they get some mechanic refreshes or some damage is heavily overtuned they are going to be the easiest dungeons of the season along with upper Mechagon.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2022-06-03 at 05:53 PM.

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    I think you're underestimating just how mechanically bare bones the WoD dungeons and Kara are. Especially the WoD ones. WoD dungeons weren't made with M+ in mind and Kara was just a refresher of an old, easy raid with only a few new unique bosses and mechanics added. They will be facerolled without knowing anything for the most part. Unless they get some mechanic refreshes or some damage is heavily overtuned they are going to be the easiest dungeons of the season along with upper Mechagon.
    Very possible, though I seem to recall that some of the bosses were a real pita in Legion.

    WoD ones I barely remember. I never bother with Timewalking so I don't think I've done them in 7+ years
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  14. #894
    I am going to avoid mythic plus the first month of season 4 lol. People are going to suck so hard in the dungeons and they will very likely be overtuned as usual. I will wait for blizzard to nerf them to the ground and for everyone to learn them .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    The WoD dungeons and Kara are mechanically a joke compared to Shadowlands dungeons, they will probably feel easy as hell.

    Mechagon might cause people that don't know it issues but buffs carry you through upper mechagon and made it the easiest BFA M+. So that really just leaves lower mechagon which does have a decent amount of mechanics and no crutch buffs to carry like upper.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think you're underestimating just how mechanically bare bones the WoD dungeons and Kara are. Especially the WoD ones. WoD dungeons weren't made with M+ in mind and Kara was just a refresher of an old, easy raid with only a few new unique bosses and mechanics added. They will be facerolled without knowing anything for the most part. Unless they get some mechanic refreshes or some damage is heavily overtuned they are going to be the easiest dungeons of the season along with upper Mechagon.
    Iron Docks is pretty easy but Grimrail will be difficult. I remember at launch of WoD and when the mythic dungeons came out for them, it was pretty difficult as the bosses can be compared mechanically to SL.

    Honestly I find SL dungeons very easy compared to Legion and BFA. I remember a +15 in Legion was quite difficult (as a cutting edge raider), and now it is piss easy (as a casual mind you).
    Last edited by Richardbro; 2022-06-04 at 10:02 AM.
    Pally Collector, 650+ Mounts, 1600+ Pets, 600+ Toys, 30000+ achieves.

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    Honestly I find SL dungeons very easy compared to Legion and BFA. I remember a +15 in Legion was quite difficult (as a cutting edge raider), and now it is piss easy (as a casual mind you).

    Or you've become a better player since Legion.

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    Honestly I find SL dungeons very easy compared to Legion and BFA. I remember a +15 in Legion was quite difficult (as a cutting edge raider), and now it is piss easy (as a casual mind you).
    This is like the same as players thinking classic was going to be hard. You get better the more you experience. The fact you think grimrail is on par with shadowlands dungeons mechanically says it all.

    Also comparing key levels in a blanket across xpacs is dumb as hell because for certain patches in legion a +10 was the equivalent to a +15 in shadowlands. I'd expect someone comparing them as if they played the xpacs to know this.

  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    This is like the same as players thinking classic was going to be hard. You get better the more you experience. The fact you think grimrail is on par with shadowlands dungeons mechanically says it all.

    Also comparing key levels in a blanket across xpacs is dumb as hell because for certain patches in legion a +10 was the equivalent to a +15 in shadowlands. I'd expect someone comparing them as if they played the xpacs to know this.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Or you've become a better player since Legion.
    From a healing perspective, it is definitely more easier now in SL. The seasonal affixes shower healers with mana while before Shadowlands, it was very tough.
    Pally Collector, 650+ Mounts, 1600+ Pets, 600+ Toys, 30000+ achieves.

  18. #898
    I think so far SL s3 is the easiest one i did. The set+leggos combo is huge.

    I would be fine of all seasons are like this - gear is not an issue, 15s are reall at the grasp of everyone, etc. Timers are basically irrelevant until you start pushing seriously.

    Yet r.io charts for this season show that around 65% don't even go past all +10s. It's not specified if it's characters or accounts (and makes all the difference), but one thing is certain - the average player is well below what most people think.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    From a healing perspective, it is definitely more easier now in SL. The seasonal affixes shower healers with mana while before Shadowlands, it was very tough.
    Healers in M+ have almost always been there to heal mistakes, not to heal raw damage outside of a few high key tyranical bosses. Not sure how you think healing M+ in legion was hard when most tank specs where immortal even if you didn't exist and dps only took damage to standing in bad stuff or missing a kick which is basically the same as it is right now. Hell, no healer groups where even more common in legion than they currently are.

  20. #900
    I don't see the point in removing the timers. It's not like you don't get loot if you don't beat the timer.

    You can just ignore the timer entirely. If you're appropriately geared for the dungeon and choose not to wait for BL on every single pull, you're going to beat the timer by playing normally (unless you're pushing high keys - but if you're pushing high keys, removing the timer seems counter intuitive). I played a DOS 20 in time this week with my ilvl 264 alt (with 233 weapon), and before you say I got boosted, I wasn't even last in overall DPS. We didn't even try hard to beat the timer, it was just a guild run while having fun and goofing around in discord. With tier set bonuses and double legendary, timers for anything +15 and below are a joke honestly. If you get stressed out by them, just imagine timers aren't there, and odds are you still easily beat the timer.

    You can also just join a community of people who don't care about timers and play exclusively with them if you want.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    From a healing perspective, it is definitely more easier now in SL. The seasonal affixes shower healers with mana while before Shadowlands, it was very tough.
    Before Shadowlands, you could drink for 2 sec before / at the start of each pull and regen a LOT of mana this way over the course of the dungeon. They removed this but instead gave us other ways to regen mana, so I don't really see the big difference. It feels a bit better, but on the other hand if your route/dps requires you to kill Wo/Vy you're out of luck.

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