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  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    just because they decided to choreograph with a few more morons than usual.
    Man I laughed way too hard at this line. QFT

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I still do it but man are they pushing it. With seasons you have to redo routes all over again too. Nevermind having different version for different affixes. I just get so tired nowadays. NOT looking forward to season 4...
    Yeah I didn't even think about seasons either. As a dps even I have noticed through all my tunneling and ignoring mechanics that the main routes the tanks take us on changed pretty drastically in most dungeons in season 3 vs back in season 2 with those anima power mobs they had.

    Now in season 4 tanks have to learn ALL NEW dungeon routes from scratch. Hope you aren't studying anything else irl just when all schools are just getting back into session for fall semester so you can focus on what's REALY important: world of warcraft mythic plus dungeons...
    Last edited by matheney2k; 2022-07-25 at 09:52 PM.

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    I just find the whole concept of M+ incredibly dull. Whenever people start talking about "pathing" or "routing" or "percent", I just wonder what the fuck happened to dungeons in this game. Surely there is a better way to keep them relevant without resorting to this nonsense.
    thats not the dungeon or the devs fault,thats players who think they need meta leet plays for a 10 key,yeah you need those plays when doing a 27,but those people do it for the fun of it or the prestige,you dont need to try that hard just to get your maximum gear reward

    so what do you think a better way to keep dungeons relevant is? have a fixed cap?well that already exists for people who do the dungeons just for the gear

    you are against more content and options existing,thats just insane to me

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Yeah I didn't even think about seasons either. As a dps even I have noticed through all my tunneling and ignoring mechanics that the main routes the tanks take us on changed pretty drastically in most dungeons in season 3 vs back in season 2 with those anima power mobs they had.

    Now in season 4 tanks have to learn ALL NEW dungeon routes from scratch. Hope you aren't studying anything else irl just when all schools are just getting back into session for fall semester so you can focus on what's REALY important: world of warcraft mythic plus dungeons...
    Yeah, this is one of the aspects of M+ that Blizz doesn't seem to get, as their interviews/blue posts indicate Blizz views this aspect of M+ will increase the number of tanks by resetting the board. However, I believe it will actually make the tank situation worse.

    I think it's a fair assumption that the one person who needs to know the most about a dungeon (especially in a pug) is the tank. Sure, if you get high enough the DPS and healers will need to be more prepared than lower levels of M+, but the responsibilities of the tank when it comes to knowing the dungeon (whether it's mechanics, pathing, pulls, etc.) is much higher. It's this aspect that prevents many people from playing a tank, because the responsibility innate to the role is much higher than any other role; heck, this applies to raids, as DPS and healers can blend into the background way more than a tank who has to know the strats and positioning of the bosses at certain times.

    Constantly changing and resetting the dungeons and their pathing is actually a huge pain. It's fun at the start for the small group of people who like to 'solve' the dungeons, but most people aren't like that. Most people either want to just take their time and explore, or they just want to know the answers. Furthermore, different people have different learning rates, and constantly changing aspects of a M+ run just makes it take longer to learn, and probably frustrating if you're not a quick learner. This was one of the reasons why Teeming was hated: it wasn't just that it could introduce nasty packs, but the mob count changing would generally require a new route compared to every other week or more depending upon the seasonal affix. In the mindset of Blizz, this scenario would make more people want to tank because it could change up the routes... but the reality is that it was very unpopular to where the affix was removed.

    One of the reasons I was a main tank since vanilla was because I enjoyed the pressure and the ability to control what's going on as a tank, but rarely anyone else around me would. Granted I was never one of those people who was a slave to a specific route and pull order, as whenever I was in doubt (or bored) I'd pull a group and say "they said something bad about my mother, so they have to die." I was always pretty laid back tanking, and you can do keys well into the 20's and clear mythic raids with such an attitude... but again, I'm probably in the minority. Even so, I hated Teeming because I'd always forget the mob counts and exact pulls. I even loathed the season changes to some degree when routes would shift. I was never a fan of things constantly changing up in a game like WoW beyond major changes with expansions. Little tweaks and adjustments during an expansion are fine, but too much change can be very bad if it comes too often.

    Alright, the general mindset you can get with random pugs probably doesn't help either, as everyone will run into people who are basically douches or have certain expectations of a run. I won't say having expectations is a good or bad thing, but I will say that constantly changing the dungeons and/or routes will just make that situation worse. The quick learners or people who have tons of time on their hands can adjust, but that's a very small minority of tanks. Instead, the situation Blizz creates just makes the social pressures applied to the tanks worse, and that'll definitely lead to less people wanting to tank.

    *edit* - I should mention what I think Blizz should do. In the end, I've had an idea in my head about how WoW should deal with loot that pertains to raiding, but it could also apply to M+. The main problem with gear in WoW is that it's currently designed to be the means and the ends of the content. To simplify, you create a catch-22: I need gear to clear this content, but that gear drops from the content I'm trying to clear. This is intentional as well as a side effect of the constantly increasing difficulty of content in WoW.

    Simplest thing to do would be to put a hard cap on ilvl to heroic raid levels. What would also have to happen is that mythic raid no longer would drop higher ilvl gear, but it could drop perhaps more loot, cosmetics, etc... basically, mythic raid drops would not offer power gains. As such, you obtain a LOT more flexibility in the rest of the game, M+ included. The whole reason there's an ilvl cap on gear in M+ is because of mythic raiding, but removing the mythic raid ilvl increase just removes the problem. Heck, you could probably not touch M+ and most people would be fine. In the end, it would move a lot of the M+ gearing (in terms of BiS) back to the dungeons themselves instead of the vault. While I suppose there could be some adjustments to the ilvl drops for M+, the ultimate goal is to make gear the means to the end only, as trying to do two things at once causes many issues and frustration for the players.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2022-07-25 at 10:26 PM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Man I laughed way too hard at this line. QFT

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah I didn't even think about seasons either. As a dps even I have noticed through all my tunneling and ignoring mechanics that the main routes the tanks take us on changed pretty drastically in most dungeons in season 3 vs back in season 2 with those anima power mobs they had.

    Now in season 4 tanks have to learn ALL NEW dungeon routes from scratch. Hope you aren't studying anything else irl just when all schools are just getting back into session for fall semester so you can focus on what's REALY important: world of warcraft mythic plus dungeons...
    How is that QFT when the problem in this thread is clearly coming from whining key runners?

  5. #925
    Instead of removing the timer, what about adding a new mode? A new mode with increasing difficulty with each key level, trash/bosses with more HP, more damage, and without timer. To the point of being extremely difficult (or virtually impossible with the current gear) at the higher levels.

    I would like that.
    Last edited by ukko; 2022-07-25 at 10:30 PM.

  6. #926
    Asking for the M+ timer to be removed is like asking for the timer to be removed in the Crash Bandicoot series of Time Challenges.

    It's just not gonna happen. Time-attack modes have existed in games since forever. Speedrunning has also been a thing since forever. It tests your knowledge, your reflexes and your optimization strategies, as well as testing your group composition. The only way to get a platinum trophy in a Crash Bandicoot level is to know that level inside and out. To the point where your jumps are executed before you can even see the enemies spawn, (oh the glory days of Playstation 1 hardware limitations), because you KNOW they will be there, because you've done that level more than 100 times.

    That's what M+ is. The natural progression of MOP and WOD Challenge modes, which were a DIRECT comparison to the Time Attack modes of the platformers of times past. You can't remove the timer without altering the core mechanics of that specific game mode.

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by ukko View Post
    Instead of removing the timer, what about adding a new mode? A new mode with increasing difficulty with each key level, trash/bosses with more HP, more damage, and without timer. To the point of being extremely difficult (or virtually impossible with the current gear) at the higher levels.

    I would like that.
    So you cc all but 1 mob every pull. And you wait for all your cds every pull. That sounds boring as hell.

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    So you cc all but 1 mob every pull. And you wait for all your cds every pull. That sounds boring as hell.
    Do you do that in mythic raids?
    Last edited by ukko; 2022-07-30 at 01:16 AM.

  9. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I hear ya and it's the main reason why I stopped tanking much in WoW. I just can't be asked to memorize all these super specific routes where you pull trash packs exactly according to some spreadsheet for each specific dungeon, and then alter those damn routes depending on which affix is active.

    You need to memorize several routes PER DUNGEON to tank properly these days and its just not fun....Sucks too cuz I love tanking normally.
    Basically this. I stopped tanking too. Couldn’t be bothered with the headache and toxic shit be wise my route wasn’t the “omega pull v138”, but was v137.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    thats not the dungeon or the devs fault,thats players who think they need meta leet plays for a 10 key,yeah you need those plays when doing a 27,but those people do it for the fun of it or the prestige,you dont need to try that hard just to get your maximum gear reward

    so what do you think a better way to keep dungeons relevant is? have a fixed cap?well that already exists for people who do the dungeons just for the gear

    you are against more content and options existing,thats just insane to me
    It is exactly blizz fault. Why do you think they designed them that way?

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    It is exactly blizz fault. Why do you think they designed them that way?
    designed them how?with a timer?idk for the extra challenge...but for people who do m+ just for gear,the timer barely even matters,personaly i wouldnt mind if it was remmoved for keys under the gear cap as its pointless anyways

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by ukko View Post
    Do you do that in mythic raids?
    Yes. In mythic raids u get a fresh set of cds and the bosses are un ccable

  12. #932
    The timer is really what makes the challenge for good or bad. Yes it can be frustrating but it also sets the conditions for how you need to play and the rest is sort of up to you to figure out how you want to do it. Some of the issues of m+ were always a thing like pathing and skipping and people used to get frustrated 15 years ago as well when trying to skip and someone accidentally pulled a side pack. Whether there is a timer on the dungeon or not - there's always a 'timer' of people wanting to finish as quickly and smoothly as possible.

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by ukko View Post
    Instead of removing the timer, what about adding a new mode? A new mode with increasing difficulty with each key level, trash/bosses with more HP, more damage, and without timer. To the point of being extremely difficult (or virtually impossible with the current gear) at the higher levels.

    I would like that.
    I like that idea.

    Mythic 15 without timer - but with less reward compared to the timed version.

    Timed runs would still be the real deal.

  14. #934
    Just make not timing it equal to +1 and the problem is solved. Everybody is happy.

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by frontfleezy View Post
    Just make not timing it equal to +1 and the problem is solved. Everybody is happy.
    Just make not timing equal to -1, because if you can't time a key, why would you even want a higher key? Apparently the key you just played was too hard, so the game will give you an easier key. Problem solved and everybody is happy.

    Timing a key is not hard. If you don't wipe 2-3 times, and if you don't wait for cooldowns on every pull, you will automatically time it. Why would anyone want a harder key than the one they just perma wiped on? Obviously you need an easier key.

  16. #936
    Why is this an issue?

    If you dont want to stress about the timer then just dont. Find someone with a key and then some more like minded individuals and just relax and do the dungeon at your own pace. You dont actually need to worry about the timer at all unless you are aiming to increase or keep the leve lof the key, or if you are worrying about rating. You'll still get gear. Theres lots of people around that have keys and dont mind not timing them. Hell, I have one.

    Also, this is content specifically aimed at people that want this kind of experience. If you dont like it then dont play it. Removing timers from M+'s is the same as asking to remove half the mechanics from bosses in raids. I know that "Dont play it" is a bit of a cop out, but in this case it is true. If you dont want to do m+, then go raid. If neither appeals to you then I dont know what to say. There's plenty of content in the game for you.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    Why is this an issue?

    If you dont want to stress about the timer then just dont. Find someone with a key and then some more like minded individuals and just relax and do the dungeon at your own pace. You dont actually need to worry about the timer at all unless you are aiming to increase or keep the leve lof the key, or if you are worrying about rating. You'll still get gear. Theres lots of people around that have keys and dont mind not timing them. Hell, I have one.
    Its not the timer they have a problem with, they cant comprehend its a challenge that rewards things so there is a reason to do it, and an alternative to the aging raiding community, they just see it as another dungeon, therefor if its run, it needs to give reward.

    In other words, they want the result, without doing it correctly, so basically what they want is to do take 2 hours to do +2, and it should go to +3 because they did it, the same logic to +15, so they can get the reward cause i dont know, they cant comprehend its not a M0.

    They cant comprehend the game hasnt changed for them, just do the M0 and be done without the challenge, you never had this before, there was no gear to be given, it was M0 and Raids, but nope, since it exists, it must be changed to fit the bad players, the bad players shouldnt improve logic.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-08-05 at 10:49 AM.

  18. #938
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by talmir View Post
    If you dont want to stress about the timer then just dont. Find someone with a key and then some more like minded individuals and just relax and do the dungeon at your own pace. You dont actually need to worry about the timer at all unless you are aiming to increase or keep the leve lof the key, or if you are worrying about rating. You'll still get gear. Theres lots of people around that have keys and dont mind not timing them. Hell, I have one.
    I'd love to follow this advice, but I just can't.

    Even in the first week of a new season, as soon as any pug group I'm in wipes once, someone bails, the key is depleted, the run is over and I have quite literally wasted my time.

    You have been very, very fortunate thus far if your groups are staying once the timer has expired!

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I'd love to follow this advice, but I just can't.

    Even in the first week of a new season, as soon as any pug group I'm in wipes once, someone bails, the key is depleted, the run is over and I have quite literally wasted my time.

    You have been very, very fortunate thus far if your groups are staying once the timer has expired!
    If you don't want to time a key, list it and write "no timer" or something, I can guarantee you only like-minded people will join.

    Then again, there is a huge difference between not timing a dungeon and being held hostage for 2 hours killing 1 trash mob per pack.

    One is "okay, our gear was not enough, we maybe had 1-2 wipes but we got thru it 5-15 mins over the timer" and the other is "we are basically incompetent not knowing shit, suffer with us".

    The latter just can't be helped. And especially pugs won't put up with something like that.

  20. #940
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    If you don't want to time a key, list it and write "no timer" or something, I can guarantee you only like-minded people will join.

    Then again, there is a huge difference between not timing a dungeon and being held hostage for 2 hours killing 1 trash mob per pack.

    One is "okay, our gear was not enough, we maybe had 1-2 wipes but we got thru it 5-15 mins over the timer" and the other is "we are basically incompetent not knowing shit, suffer with us".

    The latter just can't be helped. And especially pugs won't put up with something like that.
    These weren't my keys, thankfully (or unfortunately, for those whose keys they were), but it was still a waste of whatever time it took me to get there, do part of the dungeon and leave with nothing.

    These were all "we've wiped, dungeon is done!" bails from petulant players, but my play time is extremely limited, so when I do have an hour to run a dungeon or two, even having one bailed can affect my ability to get anything meaningful done that session.

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