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  1. #941
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    If you don't want to time a key, list it and write "no timer" or something, I can guarantee you only like-minded people will join.

    Then again, there is a huge difference between not timing a dungeon and being held hostage for 2 hours killing 1 trash mob per pack.

    One is "okay, our gear was not enough, we maybe had 1-2 wipes but we got thru it 5-15 mins over the timer" and the other is "we are basically incompetent not knowing shit, suffer with us".

    The latter just can't be helped. And especially pugs won't put up with something like that.
    These weren't my keys, thankfully (or unfortunately, for those whose keys they were), but it was still a waste of whatever time it took me to get there, do part of the dungeon and leave with nothing.

    These were all "we've wiped, dungeon is done!" bails from petulant players, but my play time is extremely limited, so when I do have an hour to run a dungeon or two, even having one bailed can affect my ability to get anything meaningful done that session.

  2. #942
    Fluffy Kitten GothamCity's Avatar
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    Coming into the thread late, but I tend to agree in some cases.

    There's a set of people who love current M+, enjoy the challenge the timer provides, enjoys complex routing/skips, and so on. The hallmarks of M+. Then there are those who find it too stressful, and a massive tank demand due to the extreme pressure placed on them.

    Generally speaking, most people who really love M+ push high keys and chase rating. I think that for +2-X, they should remove the timer and make all the trash required (potentially just remove some packs that are skipped so low keys don't take an hour). The timer can still 'exist' behind the scenes for score purposes, but you no longer fail unless you reset the dungeon and you'll always get the same item drops.

    At >X, enable fails, big score penalties for missing the timer, and allow for trash skips.

    Kind of the best of both worlds. I'm not entirely sure on what 'X' should be, probably either 10 or 15.

    (For those who care, I did all 28+ in S3)
    Last edited by GothamCity; 2022-08-06 at 02:26 PM.
    "Okay, Robin. Together, we're gonna punch these guys so hard, words describing the impact are gonna spontaneously materialize out of thin air."
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  3. #943
    remove the timer ROFL. if you want m+ with no timer then dont look at the countdown and play the dungeon how you want? but nah i want the entire m+ to be revamped because i just suck balls at this game. stop wishing the game to be changed because you arent good enough to play the gam, and also not good enough to weed out other shit players that ruin your key. maybe just maybe m+ isnt your cup of tea. 1-2 wipes failing keys? ive had over 30 deaths in a key and still timed it 5-10 minutes left. you have to be real bad and not know how to rotate CDs between players if you cant time key with 1-2 wipes. that is just the definition of being bad/pathetic at the game.

  4. #944
    Fluffy Kitten GothamCity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigw View Post
    1-2 wipes failing keys? ive had over 30 deaths in a key and still timed it 5-10 minutes left.
    That's only possible on low level keys where you outgear it. As a key pusher, when we're making a serious attempt on a new level, a single wipe is always a fail. We still do the key for practice, but even if we're flawless afterwards, losing the ~90s per wipe is too much when you're pushing.
    "Okay, Robin. Together, we're gonna punch these guys so hard, words describing the impact are gonna spontaneously materialize out of thin air."
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  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    These weren't my keys, thankfully (or unfortunately, for those whose keys they were), but it was still a waste of whatever time it took me to get there, do part of the dungeon and leave with nothing.

    These were all "we've wiped, dungeon is done!" bails from petulant players, but my play time is extremely limited, so when I do have an hour to run a dungeon or two, even having one bailed can affect my ability to get anything meaningful done that session.
    There is nothing petulant about it.

    Without knowing what caused the wipe and the circumstances it is entirely reasonable for players to quit.
    Tyrannical week and you wipe at boss 20-30%? Yea, key is most likely done for if you play for a timer.

    If your play time is extremely limited then pugging M+ is literally the worst approach you can take.
    Get a guild with people that are okay to do dungeons with you not timing it. They won't leave.
    Hating on pugs because they are pugs is pointless.

  6. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    There is nothing petulant about it.

    Without knowing what caused the wipe and the circumstances it is entirely reasonable for players to quit.
    Tyrannical week and you wipe at boss 20-30%? Yea, key is most likely done for if you play for a timer.

    If your play time is extremely limited then pugging M+ is literally the worst approach you can take.
    Get a guild with people that are okay to do dungeons with you not timing it. They won't leave.
    Hating on pugs because they are pugs is pointless.
    It was literally because we had wiped. We had plenty of time left, no obvious issues with healing, dps, etc. It was simply because we wiped. Perhaps they wanted a +3 run, rather than +2 or +1? Who knows, but yes, it was petulant.

    I have a great guild, thank you, but I'm also an emergency services shift worker, so their free time and mine don't always align. It seems that what you're saying is, because my expectations are that a pug will finish a run even after we wipe once and we're still capable of timing the run, that I should just stop playing M+?

  7. #947
    If you have problems with completing a 15+ in time you didn't deserve that gear anyways, funnily enough you will still get it even being over the time limit as long as you complete which I never understood, you will not have a easier time gearing up or getting a mythic piece per week anywhere else in the game.

    Historically except for the first 2~ weeks of a new expansion due to being very undergeared 15+ keys haven't been that difficult anyways but already give the best gear, after expansion launch even a season reset won't make them difficult in any way again.

    Anything above that is just for the challenge's sake so the timer is just fine (and necessary to not cheese snorefests with waiting for lust/cooldowns every pack)

    Why are players so entitled? You really don't need to be a rocket scientist or young korean prodigy gamer to get a 15+ done, we have old farts in their 50s in our guild that maybe don't impress but can still pull their weight in there....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    It was literally because we had wiped. We had plenty of time left, no obvious issues with healing, dps, etc. It was simply because we wiped. Perhaps they wanted a +3 run, rather than +2 or +1? Who knows, but yes, it was petulant.

    I have a great guild, thank you, but I'm also an emergency services shift worker, so their free time and mine don't always align. It seems that what you're saying is, because my expectations are that a pug will finish a run even after we wipe once and we're still capable of timing the run, that I should just stop playing M+?
    There are big m+ guilds/communities that you could run with any hour of the day, I also had to do this a few years back due to my schedule.

    Apart from that it just looks like you hit a group with too much ego or a wild temper... it happens.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    It was literally because we had wiped. We had plenty of time left, no obvious issues with healing, dps, etc. It was simply because we wiped. Perhaps they wanted a +3 run, rather than +2 or +1? Who knows, but yes, it was petulant.

    I have a great guild, thank you, but I'm also an emergency services shift worker, so their free time and mine don't always align. It seems that what you're saying is, because my expectations are that a pug will finish a run even after we wipe once and we're still capable of timing the run, that I should just stop playing M+?
    As I said, a wipe is enough to ruin a key.
    It depends on dungeon / affixes / the magnitude of the mistake that caused the wipe. I don't know why you keep saying "but it was only a wipe lol, else it was all good", nothing is all good when you wipe.
    The general rule is if everything is going perfect then people will stay quiet and not leave.

    For example, I learnt to ditch people for failing the portals on So'azmi.
    Many timers were gone cuz ppl died like 10 seconds into the fight cuz they can't do those portals. I don't even care anymore, I'm not wasting my time with that.
    Same thing with Tyrannical Xy'exa in DOS.

    No, I didn't say you should stop playing M+, I say that you shouldn't expect literally anything from pugs.
    In a pug, nobody is nobody to nobody, so nobody cares about anyone. Pretty basic PoV.

    There is a solution to your issue, if you wanna pug make your own group, write "no timer" or "weekly" in the subject and boom.
    Iterate like 2 or 3 times in chat that the timer is not a variable here and it wil be a breeze.

  9. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    As I said, a wipe is enough to ruin a key.
    It depends on dungeon / affixes / the magnitude of the mistake that caused the wipe. I don't know why you keep saying "but it was only a wipe lol, else it was all good", nothing is all good when you wipe.
    The general rule is if everything is going perfect then people will stay quiet and not leave.

    For example, I learnt to ditch people for failing the portals on So'azmi.
    Many timers were gone cuz ppl died like 10 seconds into the fight cuz they can't do those portals. I don't even care anymore, I'm not wasting my time with that.
    Same thing with Tyrannical Xy'exa in DOS.

    No, I didn't say you should stop playing M+, I say that you shouldn't expect literally anything from pugs.
    In a pug, nobody is nobody to nobody, so nobody cares about anyone. Pretty basic PoV.

    There is a solution to your issue, if you wanna pug make your own group, write "no timer" or "weekly" in the subject and boom.
    Iterate like 2 or 3 times in chat that the timer is not a variable here and it wil be a breeze.
    Ok, I'm going to give you the context.

    It was the last, big trash pull before the last boss in Grimrail. It went a little south and we only killed half the pack, but we still had just under 12 minutes left on the timer, in a +14, and we had had no other wipes prior to this. It was EASILY timeable, but one of the dps threw a hissy fit because we had had a wipe, and left. Are you still going to come up with some hackneyed reason why it was anything other than a petulant crybaby?
    Last edited by Mystikal; 2022-08-06 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Wrote 'over' instead of 'under'

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    That's only possible on low level keys where you outgear it. As a key pusher, when we're making a serious attempt on a new level, a single wipe is always a fail. We still do the key for practice, but even if we're flawless afterwards, losing the ~90s per wipe is too much when you're pushing.
    ive had over 30 deaths in an 18. still timed it.

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by tonicsargeras View Post
    ...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

    We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

    For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

    Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.
    Strongly agree, time is its own reward already, no reason to add it into this annoying meta-mechanic where more time spent equals even more time lost, effectively.

    Clearing something fast is enough of a reward on its own, clearing it painstakingly slow is enough of a penalty as well.

    "BuT MaH EpEeN!"
    Go collect time limited cosmetics; if you're good you don't need that little real advantage compared to ostensibly worse players and your epeen isn't worth fucking someone else's game up because they hit a gearing wall.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I will never understand why people want timers removed.
    First off, it’s part of the very structure of the system. You’re literally asking for something to be removed that is part of the core design the devs want for challenge.
    Secondly, there’s no reason to. Any time someone comes up with a reason for it never makes sense, or is easily countered.
    Regardless, I hope it doesn’t go anywhere as it’s fundamental design, and it adds a layer of challenge for people who enjoy that sort of thing.
    People asking to be removed can't fathom the fact they they suck at the game and always fail a timer so they come up with idiotic reasons why it should be removed

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    Ok, I'm going to give you the context.

    It was the last, big trash pull before the last boss in Grimrail. It went a little south and we only killed half the pack, but we still had just under 12 minutes left on the timer, in a +14, and we had had no other wipes prior to this. It was EASILY timeable, but one of the dps threw a hissy fit because we had had a wipe, and left. Are you still going to come up with some hackneyed reason why it was anything other than a petulant crybaby?
    I'm just straight up not going to believe you, mate.
    "A little south" is language used to downplay something in my book.

    Alternatively, if you literally only had the last boss left with 12 minutes then 4-manning it still times the key.
    Any sensible person would see this but since you apparently didn't, that means things here don't add up.

  14. #954
    Er... the timer is what makes it challenging for an upgraded Keystone, else you could take your sweet time... which you already can if you don't care for the key upgrade, and yielding it's weekly reward.

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    You have been very, very fortunate thus far if your groups are staying once the timer has expired!
    maybe, just maybe, its not "fortunate" but preparation - in other words AGREE ON IT BEFORE RUN STARTS!
    you actualy canput that in queue that you want to finish even if over time, problem is when people want to finish over time but dont even mention it before start, so ofc if its not timed someone leaves...

  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    I'd love to follow this advice, but I just can't.

    Even in the first week of a new season, as soon as any pug group I'm in wipes once, someone bails, the key is depleted, the run is over and I have quite literally wasted my time.

    You have been very, very fortunate thus far if your groups are staying once the timer has expired!
    List as "completion", problem solved
    You literally just have to talk to people before the key, and it's no issue at all
    Last edited by neescher; 2022-08-06 at 08:27 PM.

  17. #957
    Fluffy Kitten GothamCity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigw View Post
    ive had over 30 deaths in an 18. still timed it.
    Yeah, low level key. Exactly what I'm referring to.

    To be more explicit, at the end of S3 the gear we had allowed anyone to push to about +28/29, and meta comps able to push to +32/33. Unless you're pushing high 20s and beyond, you're not going to fail the timer on a single wipe (assuming you have the gear).

    Should've been clearer, I definitely do not mean 2-15 range as 'low level'. I'd consider anything sub 23 in S3 as low, 23-28 as mid, and 29+ as high keys.
    "Okay, Robin. Together, we're gonna punch these guys so hard, words describing the impact are gonna spontaneously materialize out of thin air."
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