10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[tonicsargeras]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

[Aucald]

Bump back to the first page due to being stuck in moderated status.

[Celement]

I can see how that would be disastrous myself as much as I hate the key system.

Self control and wow players dont go hand in hand and I can see the community becoming a nightmare trying to hold people hostage in death marches.

[ellieg]

No they should not.

"They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative."

I think you're equating casual to unskilled. Im casual. As in I play a few hours a week. M+ is great, because by design, it is a quick thing I can jump into. I only need an hour of free time to find a group, get to dungeon, run it, then log off.

[Nachtigal]

WoW definitely feels more like a hack and slash, opposed to an RPG. I think M+ has heavily contributed to that feeling. Most people that raid and do M+ spend more hours in M+ to fill up their vaults and to hunt the odd trinket/weapon, than actually raiding. World content just doesn't have a proper existence in today's WoW.

[agentsi]

no, thats a terrible idea.

M+ has been more popular than challenge dungeons by a fucking mile. Why would you want it to be reverted back to something where folks do them once, and then never again.

Fucking dumb

[Weezull]

Excited to sit in a dungeon for 5 hours as we wait for lust on every pull in order to be able to complete the most challenging key level.

[unbound]

I would generally agree.

It would be nice to have harder content where there is less pressure to be the right class or have the right score to be invited into pugs (good luck to returning players in mid-expansion trying to get into any pugs). It should reduce the pressure from each angle of the trinity, so it would like increase participation of tanks and healers.

I can tank and heal just fine, but I have never (and would never) go into a M+ with my non-dps toons because heaven forbid that I don't want to mega-pull constantly or drink at exactly the right times...or, have to pull off small miracles (either as tank or healer) because dps goes ham on the wrong target so that their epeen meter looks great.

Alternatives have always been the answer at the peak popularity of WoW. Let the M+ speed runners have their fun...just offer this reasonable alternative for those that want a challenge without a clock breathing down their neck. We really can have both.

[xero5141]

I don't understand the point though. Doing m+ above a certain level is entirely opt-in and doesn't offer any substantial rewards that I'm aware of?

You can get BiS gear from m0 and upgrade it for valor. Why take away something massively popular because you can't or don't want to access it?

[RobertMugabe]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

I don't really mind the timer in M+ as much as other things do.

The non-seasonal affixes are just super annoying and don't make the dungeons any more dynamic, just annoying.

And honestly I kinda dislike the entire M+ system with you just doing the same dungeons, but on increased difficulty. I have actually never bothered to do beside onceKSM, not because it's hard, but because I get so quickly bored of leveling up my key and then trying to find a group where there aren't people who get carried. IMO make Heroic dungeons harder and then make Mythic dungeons very hard like mythic raids and get rid of M+.

That being said, I completely disagree that M+ dungeons are complex or inaccessible. Just do lower keys to learn the dungeons as you are supposed to do. If you think that you "deserve" to do high level keys without having done them before, then that's on you.

[Toybox]

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

That's what low level keys are for. +2-5s are basically M0s now everyone has a base of 230+ iLvl.

[RobertMugabe]

no, thats a terrible idea.

M+ has been more popular than challenge dungeons by a fucking mile. Why would you want it to be reverted back to something where folks do them once, and then never again.

Fucking dumb

The real question is: Has M+ made WoW a better and more played game compared to when we didn't have this system? M+ is definitely more popular than Challenge Modes (which is logical, considering it gives gear), but it has quickly become a very niche game mode and it isn't a huge success at what it was designed for in the first place: eSports.

[Relapses]

"Hey, let's take this feature that's highly popular, incredibly well-received and has single-handedly helped keep the game relevant for the last 6 years and replace it with something less than 1% of the playerbase ever engaged with."

This is why nobody takes forum suggestions seriously.

[xaerus]

You want Blizzard to remove the moat popular feature they've added to their game in a decade because you and others like you are too shit to complete it? Maybe WoW isn't for you. The game is casual enough as is and this may be the worst take I've ever seen.

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

[DechCJC]

Nope, one of the most unnecessary changes they could make to the game imo.

[oland138]

If you can't time a key, isn't it enough of a challenge? You still get credit after the time expires.

[Mask]

I can see how that would be disastrous myself as much as I hate the key system.

Self control and wow players dont go hand in hand and I can see the community becoming a nightmare trying to hold people hostage in death marches.

What if instead of a timer there were a death cap for failure. Something like 20 deaths and the key is bricked.

[Utrrabbit]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

That is a completely horrible idea all around. It would destroy the very reason people enjoy m+.

[Aydinx2]

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Do you have anything to actually support these claims?
Yes they weren't the core of the WoW experience, because they are a more recent addition.

They are absolutely not complex or inaccessible.

If a player isn't skilled enough or willing to put in the effort for even mediocre M+ keys (+9 and lower), then they are also not capable of doing normal raids. And since there is no other reason to get better gear, there is no problem.

[ellieg]

What if instead of a timer there were a death cap for failure. Something like 20 deaths and the key is bricked.

Better not pull without waiting for every single cd including lust. Dont wanna risk it.

Or even better: hmm died 3 times already in the first 5 mins. Let's just call it here guys.